Proposal to reclassify "JIS" as "OADG"

[bhtooefr]

I'll admit that not knowing Japanese is causing problems here, but it appears that the JIS standard layout (JIS X 6002:1980 - there was a later 1986 standard that was abandoned) is derived from the ASR-33 layout.



The layout used on modern PCs (in 106 or 109-key variations) is the OADG layout (the latest version being OADG 109A), which was driven by IBM along with several other manufacturers. (Apple uses their own layout that's derived from the OADG layout, it seems.)

Apparently JIS X 4064:2002 references OADG 109A as an example of a standard keyboard, but it doesn't say that OADG 109A is the standard keyboard, and also references the NICOLA keyboard (which I believe is the thumb-shift keyboard).

So, should we move any references to "JIS" to "OADG" instead?

[Muirium]

What is the OADG? I ask myself. The top Google hit is the august and mighty Ottawa Area Dressage Group. A few more false positives down, and I suppose it's this:

http://www.oadg.or.jp

Which the Wikipedia confirms:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_Open_Ar ... ers'_Group

No surprise Apple does something different, it's not in that group. Anyway, I'll be sad to see "JIS" go. It's a much better acronym than OADG (like ANSI and ISO it's easily pronounceable for a start, and is in fact how people say the word "just" around here) plus it has a J right at the start so you know who's it is. Ah well.

[Findecanor]

Which standard has the keys specific for the Japanese layout on its usual places, and a vertical return Key?

[bhtooefr]

The OADG standards. I'm seeing other implementations that had the vertical return key, but I believe the first layout to actually bring it mostly together was 5576-001, and that is still somewhat different from the OADG layouts (which began with 5576-A01).

Hoping someone more familiar with the Japanese layouts can correct me, or mention a JIS standard that encapsulates the OADG 109A standard or something (or that OADG 109A is actually based on - I've seen claims that JIS X 6002:1980 is the basis for OADG 106, but it sure doesn't look like it).

[rzwv]

OADG109A is announced publicly as a reference example of a JIS standard on October 20, 2002.
Therefore, it thinks as OADG109 A=JIS and is satisfactory.


＞JIS規格番号からJISを検索
JIS 「X4064」
http://www.jisc.go.jp/app/JPS/JPSO0020.html

[bhtooefr]

From a mangled translation, it looks like OADG 109A is presented to use as an example of how to implement JIS X 4064, but not actually part of X 4064:

(Reference), the correspondence between the logical and physical key key associated with the (normative) Annex body and this annex IntroductionIntended to complement for example, is not part of the specification.

The original text:

序文 この附属書（参考）は，本体及び附属書（規定）に関連する論理キーと物理キーとの対応の例について補足するもので，規定の一部ではない。

Also, here's the copy of the standard I'm using: http://kikakurui.com/x4/X4064-2002-01.html

Your JISC link won't hand out PDFs to anyone outside of Japan.

[002]

I stumbled on this little issue today when I was doing the Epson BFKB article. It seems you're on to something here. Most Japanese keyboards I have come across (or own) are OADG 109 or OADG 109A.

It really doesn't feel right to lump them under JIS when all we can find is a vague reference to suggested implementations in the JIS documentation...*sigh* - text replace incoming? I think some discretion is advised though because not everything falls under the OADG umbrella either. What is this for example?

[bhtooefr]

That looks like the only standard it's compliant with is JIS X 6002:1980, and then only partially so.

I'm not saying to lump all Japanese keyboards under the OADG umbrella, just Japanese keyboards for IBM PC compatibles (and layouts derived from them), and then just starting with the 5576-A01. (Earlier PC compatible Japanese keyboards weren't OADG.)

Edit: Created a page for [wiki]OADG[/wiki].

[Muirium]

For what it's worth, JIS isn't just our description for it. This is the dialogue box that shows up when I connect a new keyboard on OS X:

Screen Shot 2014-06-09 at 12.46.07 AM.png (245.09 KiB) Viewed 4993 times

[bhtooefr]

Although a Mac Japanese keyboard really isn't OADG, the only standard it complies with (outside of Apple itself) is JIS X 6002:1980 (and its specification of where kana, romaji, and symbols go).

I think I know where the backspace, enter, and right shift arrangement used on OADG and other modern JIS keyboards appeared, though - the NEC PC-8801, which appears to have been an exercise in fitting the JIS X 6002:1980 layout into the ISO layout (to copy the IBM PC).

[Muirium]

I should have clarified that the keyboard layout wizard I showed above is only run when connecting a non-Apple keyboard for the first time. I think, as with most of its own stuff, Apple recognizes the exact ID of its own USB keyboards and even renders their specific hardware layout (full size/sub TKL/smooshed together function row etc.) in Keyboard Viewer; while everything else is shown as a Model M style map, even when it's an HHKB or my Kishsaver!

Presumably the USB HID spec just doesn't cover signalling to the host what language layout or physical size you actually are. So operating systems must ask the user, and need to mention these terms, like JIS.

[bhtooefr]

Yeah, I'm aware, but given that Apple's IME is designed around their own keyboards, does it even use the OADG keys in the same way as Windows does?