The Realforce 104 Euro Tour Reboot!

002 · 16 Sep 2013, 23:05

The conductive domes look more like a traditional rubber dome setup to me with the centre peg and all. They definitely feel different. Daniel, you could probably put one of the single ones I sent you in the Topre switch that Mrinterface sent. It would give you an idea of how mushy they feel compared to standard Topre dome.

Daniel Beardsmore · 16 Sep 2013, 23:08

I'd have to scavenge a screwdriver small enough to get that thing apart. Mr Interface, being Dutch, used kabouterscrews and I don't have the matching driver …

webwit · 16 Sep 2013, 23:09

In a very simplified way, the Topre rubber dome design can focus on feeling, while ordinary rubber domes must also provide the contact mechanism with the plate or sheet, where a contact requires bottoming down. So, especially after wear, the Topre bottoming down is light and golden, and the ordinary rubber dome feels mushy.

Daniel Beardsmore · 16 Sep 2013, 23:19

Your premise is that Topre switches don't put enough force on the membranes for reliable actuation then? Membranes actually seem to require very little force, enough that the claims of being able to "feel the membranes" of an Acer switch keyboard, make no sense at all. (I suspect they're conflating "rubber dome" and "membrane" and mistaking the balky feel of the switch for a rubber dome feel, but I don't know.)

The real trick is put Topre capacitive domes in a pressure membrane keyboard and see if they work reliably.

webwit · 16 Sep 2013, 23:28

It has to put enough force on the little spring.

Daniel Beardsmore · 16 Sep 2013, 23:30

The spring is only 5 cN, right? I've never measured the force on a membrane, but I don't recall it needing more than a gentle touch to actuate. How that would require a 60 cN dome, I have no idea.

webwit · 16 Sep 2013, 23:45

I don't think the cN of the spring or dome matters much, what matter is that it changes the game for the design. Do you have to hit a flat surface at a specific spot with rubber, or press a spring with rubber? And it has to operate for millions of presses. However, I don't have scientifically researched this.

Daniel Beardsmore · 16 Sep 2013, 23:54

Normal membrane rubber domes run the whole gamut from being nearly linear, to being nearly as tactile as Alps clones. Considering that rubber dome keyboards are designed for cheapness, I imagine that the research required to optimise dome shape never enters into the equation and you just get whatever force curve you get. It's like pad printing — vintage pad printing looked really nice, but then along came the decal look. I don't know what that's about — is it cheaper to apply a coating than to use the types of ink that require no coating? (Why is it called "ink" when it's opaque? Surely that would make it paint?) Some brands still use the old non-coated inks, Dell and Fujitsu included.

I don't honestly know, but I'm almost wondering if you're just trying to justify the amount of €€€ you spent on Topres ;-)

j/k

Muirium · 17 Sep 2013, 00:01

Price indeed. I think that's the other half of the design equation.

Capacitative sensing alters the design constraints. The resulting freedom to be able to use a significantly better feeling dome is as much part of Topre's switch as the similar freedom to able to make an expensive one. Surely the cost cutting directive is the main driver behind most domes being ultimately shite? Especially with age.

The secret sauce, I reckon, comes down to dome geometry and quite likely rubber composition. Just a guess, but in line with Topre's reported resilience and my own key feel comparisons with variously worn rubber domes side by side. There's a fundamental resemblance, but an awful lot of detail to set them apart.

webwit · 17 Sep 2013, 00:28

Price justification is not relevant in this discussion. They cost a lot because of Japan, volume, complexity, quality control, etc., and profit margin is obviously high, as proven by the "Made in China" Topre keyboards. What is relevant is that the Topre feels significantly better than any other rubber dome I've tried, so much it's in its own quality class.

Muirium · 17 Sep 2013, 10:48

And the common goal that traditional rubber domes share, that Topre does not? Low cost. Lower than any mechanical switch available. If anyone else making domes were to be free of that, we would see other great domes too, I think.

Topre is existence proof that domes aren't evil. Just that cheap domes are cheap.

photekq · 21 Sep 2013, 08:40

To simply sum up my current opinion of Topre :

It feels nice, just as nice as any other switch I've used. However, it just doesn't feel mechanical in the same way alps or MX does. It just feels like a really, really great rubber dome. I don't dislike it and I don't adore it. It's just another nice switch. I think I may pick up a Topre board some time in the future, but I don't think it will ever replace MX for me. It feels very different, but not any better.

I made a typing video :

002 · 21 Sep 2013, 08:48

Like a sir with the pinky finger

Do you actually use Caps lock that quickly in place of shift?

photekq · 21 Sep 2013, 09:06

002 wrote:Like a sir with the pinky finger Do you actually use Caps lock that quickly in place of shift?

Yeah, I guess it was how I started typing and now I can't get out of the habit. I only just noticed this myself after seeing the video but I don't even use all of my right hand. I only use my index finger o.O

Muirium · 21 Sep 2013, 10:52

Bad habits are the reason why I don't shoot video of my weird typing style. I give my thumbs some of the work, and my outer two fingers very little, which definitely looks different. Pros: I don't seem to have given myself RSI yet. Cons: 70 wpm is as fast as I ever get with all the movement. I resolve to relearn better style when going ergo someday. It's nigh on impossible on a regular keyboard so far.

As for your Topre impression Photekq, I agreed at first. It reminded me of the nicest, newest rubberdome I'd ever tried, greatly improved. But then I typed on it for a few hours every day. It won my real appreciation later on. Even the variable weighting, to my surprise.

Ugh. Where'd I put my review draft again? Busy week…

photekq · 24 Sep 2013, 19:11

I'll have this shipped on to fireglow by the end of this week

thanks everyone involved!

kytarx · 25 Sep 2013, 00:13

Hey Photek, on the off chance you are anywhere near Anglesey...

I dont have enough posts to make the tour. If you are close by and you are up for it we could meet up so I can try the keyboard. I could maybe contribute to the shipping (in the form of buying you a beverage, or otherwise).

I could bring some other keyboards for you to try too (hhkb, aek, m0116)

Anyway I know it's a strange request and chances are you live too far away anyway, so totally understand if you don't fancy it.

Muirium · 25 Sep 2013, 00:44

The HHKB comparison would be worth it alone, actually. And Apple's finest which I'm yet to try myself.

photekq · 25 Sep 2013, 16:49

kytarx wrote:Hey Photek, on the off chance you are anywhere near Anglesey...

I dont have enough posts to make the tour. If you are close by and you are up for it we could meet up so I can try the keyboard. I could maybe contribute to the shipping (in the form of buying you a beverage, or otherwise).

I could bring some other keyboards for you to try too (hhkb, aek, m0116)

Anyway I know it's a strange request and chances are you live too far away anyway, so totally understand if you don't fancy it.

Hey man! Didn't see your post until now. I'm in Bangor. I'm in school at the minute doing my A-levels so my parents are giving me the 'don't you dare do anything except study' bullcrap, so I wouldn't be able to leave Bangor to meet up.

If you'd like to come into Bangor then I'd definitely be able to meet up for a quick drink. I can also bring my Cherry 1501HAD, my custom aluminium/brass case and some other cool Cherry stuff if you'd like.

Let me know. I really don't want to keep fireglow waiting too long though, so I'd like to have the Realforce sent off by monday. If it gets sent off on monday then I will have had it for 2 weeks, which I feel bad about. Sorry about that btw, it would have been sent off already but until today I've had no money to pay for the postage.

fireglow · 25 Sep 2013, 19:00

That's okay by me, provided you post your thoughts on how the Realforce compares to the HHKB!

kytarx · 26 Sep 2013, 11:09

Ah it's ok, I don't think I can do this weekend. I wouldn't want to distract you from your studies either!

photekq · 26 Sep 2013, 16:17

Fair enough. I will have it shipped off tomorrow hopefully.

photekq · 27 Sep 2013, 16:20

Ugh. It was 100g off the lower price point, and was going to be like £35 by parcelforce. Fuck that. Having it collected by TNT on monday.. Again, I'm so sorry about these delays.

Muirium · 27 Sep 2013, 17:08

I overwapped it when I sent the Realforce down to you. (Post office closing time was catching up on me so instead of carefully peeling off the previous labels, I just slipped it all inside a bigger box I had lying around.) Ditch my outer layer if you haven't already, and international postage could get much better.

photekq · 27 Sep 2013, 17:10

Muirium wrote:I overwapped it when I sent the Realforce down to you. (Post office closing time was catching up on me so instead of carefully peeling off the previous labels, I just slipped it all inside a bigger box I had lying around.) Ditch my outer layer if you haven't already, and international postage could get much better.

I already did

photekq · 30 Sep 2013, 21:13

So.. collection was arranged for today. Nobody came and picked it up :/

photekq · 02 Oct 2013, 15:14

OK. DPD has collected it, and it's on its way to fireglow!

So, so sorry for all these delays..

fireglow · 07 Oct 2013, 14:37

It just arrived here, I'm typing on it right now!
Thonk Thunk!
I like it!

Muirium · 07 Oct 2013, 14:41

It's got character, all right. Now for the real test: type on it for several hours straight! Topre's smoothness gets better over time.

fireglow · 20 Oct 2013, 12:07

Sorry about the delay!
I've had this drafted about about ten days now, but didn't have time to finish it up yet.

First of all, I would like to thank OO2 for the opportunity to test this board!

Now here comes my review:
I am totally hooked.
The board itself has a sturdy feel to it, it has a good, solid wight,
and one cannot but get the impression that it is very well made.
I like the cable canal, with which you can route the cable to either side of the shell.
What I found slightly annoying are the LEDs, which I found overly bright.

About the switch itself:
At first I was absolutely blown away, because it felt so smooth.
The typical Topre thock-sound adds to that, of course.
But I've also miss the very clear actuation feedback from, say, a Buckling Spring.

About the variable weight on this board:
I lean towards liking it.
Although there were countless times where my fingers would activate a less stiff key by accident,
it adds to the overall smoothness of the typing experience.

In conclusion:
A great board, a great switch.
My fingers adapted very quickly to it, I could pick up speed and reduce mistakes.
I will try to get my hands on a board of my own very soon