F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Elrick]

Unicomp lists front printed F1 etc. keys as an extra $15 option on their web site.

Thanks for letting me know I'm a simple man needing only to use the standard ANSI 104 layout for years so anything with shortened key layouts kind of scares me, that is why I hate HHKB so much (too weird).

I'm willing to pay extra for the same type of keys as represented in your image, with the F1 to F12 keys printed on the side.

[Ellipse]

We are at 10 of the needed 15 $100 tooling donors for the early round! This should push production a month earlier than it would have started if there were only one round. I expect production to take 1-2 months based on the factory's estimate.

[Ellipse]

Any more creative volunteer writers out there? It would be great to finish up the main sales page of the web site listing all the Model F advantages and features, plus a tech news article on the project I could send around to the different news sites (written in a style like other product news articles), the FAQ page of the web site, and the user manual.

[Muirium]

Always with the volunteers. What charity is this all supporting again?

[__red__]

Always with the volunteers. What charity is this all supporting again?

I dunno Muirium, but I'll remind you that most Internet Infrastructure runs on code that was written by volunteers.

[Muirium]

As does DT. No one gets paid for this forum.

But the fact that Ellipse always points out very clearly that he wants *unpaid* assistance is what strikes me. I know production is expensive and he's probably not in this for the money, but phrases like this do sound that way.

[__red__]

Yeah, I get it.

I'm treating my contribution as open source. The original design and firmware is GPLv3 so that was a given regardless out of respect for the original author.

[andrewjoy]

Any more creative volunteer writers out there? It would be great to finish up the main sales page of the web site listing all the Model F advantages and features, plus a tech news article on the project I could send around to the different news sites (written in a style like other product news articles), the FAQ page of the web site, and the user manual.

Send the text you have and i will look over it see if you have missed anything or if there are errors.

I could do a list of bullet points or something for a proper news / article person to cover , its usually known as a reviewers guide and it lists the main points and so on.

You may also want to send review samples out to the reputable reviewers ( the ones that would send it back) ( OC3D , linux tech tips , tech syndicate and so on spring to mind)

[Ratfink]

Yeah, I get it.

I'm treating my contribution as open source. The original design and firmware is GPLv3 so that was a given regardless out of respect for the original author.

Really? You mean Ellipse is releasing designs and specifications for all the parts of a Model F under the GNU GPL? I'll need to hear that from him before I believe it.

[codemonkeymike]

Yeah, I get it.

I'm treating my contribution as open source. The original design and firmware is GPLv3 so that was a given regardless out of respect for the original author.

Really? You mean Ellipse is releasing designs and specifications for all the parts of a Model F under the GNU GPL? I'll need to hear that from him before I believe it.

I don't wish to parse words, but I remember him saying he would release the design documents, well after the sale of the keyboard. Which is generally how most open source starts, out side of Stallman land.

[__red__]

Really? You mean Ellipse is releasing designs and specifications for all the parts of a Model F under the GNU GPL? I'll need to hear that from him before I believe it.

I believed it to be an open-source project at the time I volunteered. That very well may be a misunderstanding on my part. Even knowing it to not be I'd still like him to succeed because if he does I think we as a community benefit.

Regardless, I said "my contribution" in my post. I made no observation on the full project.

[idollar]

I would be happy if the names of the suppliers would be disclosed at least. We could source the parts that we need from them.

I am in particular interested in the F flippers

[Ellipse]

As an update the keyboard prototypes are expected to ship next week.

The redoing of the styrofoam packaging is taking longer than expected. We have 10 out of the 15 early tooling volunteers which should enable everyone to get their order 1-2 months earlier than the main group and at the same cost whether you are early bird or regular.

Production does take 1-2 months and shipping by sea mail from China is very slow. So if all is well with the prototypes and the early bird period is mid-January through mid-February, production would start in mid-February and last probably at least until late March, so orders would go out starting in April at the earliest.

For now given the tens of thousands of dollars going into this project, I am not releasing anything just yet - files or factory names. I haven't decided if I am releasing some or all of the files just yet.

The xwhatsit controller is of course open source and those files have been released already by xwhatsit.

The problem going forward for future Model F projects is going to be the supply of barrels and flippers. Even if you make a great new Model F design a year from now, where will you be able to get barrels and flippers, if not from an old Model F or if you were lucky enough to see this group buy before the mid-March order deadline? They cannot be reliably made with 3D printing. They would cost a lot more than 50 cents each if we were not ordering tens of thousands of them at once.

This is why I like to mention my request for someone in the community to order a few thousand of these barrels and flippers for future projects, which is difficult to ask given the upfront costs. 1,000 flippers/barrels would be enough for about 15 60% keyboards.

[Ellipse]

Look what arrived today The dot matrix printer for the packing slip included with each F62/F77-containing order! It works well, and it will work with the tractor pull green bar paper from earlier (I bought a few hundred sheets).

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[Samir]

Always with the volunteers. What charity is this all supporting again?

What's interesting is when I offered professional services on web design in exchange for the M shells it was turned down citing that there's plenty of volunteer help. You always get what you pay for, even with volunteer help, and when you're trying to run a business (which this group buy is, and as are all group buys to a certain extent), you need reliable structures in place like a professional web site. When a project has "tens of thousands" of dollars invested I find it foolish not to barter for necessary professional services, especially when you can leverage the market value of your inventory or supplies.

Look what arrived today The dot matrix printer for the packing slip included with each F62/F77-containing order! It works well, and it will work with the tractor pull green bar paper from earlier (I bought a few hundred sheets).

I hope you didn't pay for this dot matrix. I have almost a dozen of these that I took out of service that I would have gladly exchanged for the M cases if you would have mentioned needing one. I even still have boxes of ribbons as well as a brand new unopened box of IBM branded (yes that's right) dot matrix printer paper. (We used to use these printers with our hotel property management systems--built like a tank they are.) I even ran into a NIB Panasonic 24-pin (much better print quality) dot matrix earlier today that I could have probably gotten for $5.

If this printer cost as much as it does from CDW, then that was almost 4 tooling doners
https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/OKI-M ... px?pfm=srh

I didn't even think about this until now, but I could have even printed the invoices since I still have computers that I can connect the printers to. Heck, I even have Quicken and Quickbooks for DOS to create the invoices in.

[webwit]

This is why I like to mention my request for someone in the community to order a few thousand of these barrels and flippers for future projects, which is difficult to ask given the upfront costs. 1,000 flippers/barrels would be enough for about 15 60% keyboards.

This has 7bot all written over it.

[Ellipse]

Always with the volunteers. What charity is this all supporting again?

What's interesting is when I offered professional services on web design in exchange for the M shells it was turned down citing that there's plenty of volunteer help. You always get what you pay for, even with volunteer help, and when you're trying to run a business (which this group buy is, and as are all group buys to a certain extent), you need reliable structures in place like a professional web site. When a project has "tens of thousands" of dollars invested I find it foolish not to barter for necessary professional services, especially when you can leverage the market value of your inventory or supplies.

Look what arrived today The dot matrix printer for the packing slip included with each F62/F77-containing order! It works well, and it will work with the tractor pull green bar paper from earlier (I bought a few hundred sheets).

I hope you didn't pay for this dot matrix. I have almost a dozen of these that I took out of service that I would have gladly exchanged for the M cases if you would have mentioned needing one. I even still have boxes of ribbons as well as a brand new unopened box of IBM branded (yes that's right) dot matrix printer paper. (We used to use these printers with our hotel property management systems--built like a tank they are.) I even ran into a NIB Panasonic 24-pin (much better print quality) dot matrix earlier today that I could have probably gotten for $5.

If this printer cost as much as it does from CDW, then that was almost 4 tooling doners
https://www.cdw.com/shop/products/OKI-M ... px?pfm=srh

I didn't even think about this until now, but I could have even printed the invoices since I still have computers that I can connect the printers to. Heck, I even have Quicken and Quickbooks for DOS to create the invoices in.

The cool dot matrix printer was a lucky eBay find for about $40 plus shipping. The paper cost about $5 shipped. Don't worry I'm not breaking the bank

Samir I hope you are not insulting all of the many hours of hard work of this community in their many efforts, not least with this project. With every post and update to the Deskthority Wiki, DT community members are volunteering their time and expertise. By saying "you get what you pay for" you are insulting their efforts and competency in my view. I know they have been nothing but extremely generous and competent with their advice.

Last month I actually decided to teach myself how to put up a web site, along with a shopping cart. Everything is up and running already, just with ordering disabled until the prototypes have been tested. It's a simple web site with a simple theme, a few pages and some products. The order form takes you directly to PayPal's secure web site where you can log in to your account there or pay directly with your credit card instead. I think it will do the job nicely, nothing more Does anyone want the link to the site to check it out? The content is only the first draft.

[Samir]

The cool dot matrix printer was a lucky eBay find for about $40 plus shipping. The paper cost about $5 shipped. Don't worry I'm not breaking the bank

Samir I hope you are not insulting all of the many hours of hard work of this community in their many efforts, not least with this project. With every post and update to the Deskthority Wiki, DT community members are volunteering their time and expertise. By saying "you get what you pay for" you are insulting their efforts and competency in my view. I know they have been nothing but extremely generous and competent with their advice.

Last month I actually decided to teach myself how to put up a web site, along with a shopping cart. Everything is up and running already, just with ordering disabled until the prototypes have been tested. It's a simple web site with a simple theme, a few pages and some products. The order form takes you directly to PayPal's secure web site where you can log in to your account there or pay directly with your credit card instead. I think it will do the job nicely, nothing more Does anyone want the link to the site to check it out? The content is only the first draft.

Glad to hear you found it cheap. Those are complete workhorse printers that are worth way more than $40, so that's a great deal.

It was not my intention to insult anyone. But volunteer time is just that. If you need something built to a time schedule or specification you have to have it done by someone in a dedicated fashion--and you can't ask volunteers to dedicate time according to your business' demands. I'm sure the manufacturing of these new boards could have been done with volunteer efforts as well for a fraction of the cost--but no one would have waited 10 years (or longer) for them to get completed (business demand). Hence, the payment.

I'm glad you dove in an set up a shopping site yourself. It's not that hard actually once you get the basics of it. The nuances are in finding the packages that support the features you need for your business. For something as simple as these few products, even paypal product links on a static html page would have worked imo.

[Ellipse]

Yep that's right Samir - and no hard feelings! The volunteers certainly caused no time delay. The site is fully functional a week before it's needed and I have a good amount of content.

I've never operated a dot matrix printer before but I first notice that the top tray of my Oki Microline only takes one page at a time (can that behavior be changed?). It won't affect the project invoice printouts because I'll be using continuous form paper fed from the back. Also it seems not to like a second print job with both print jobs being from the top tray, unless I power off and on the machine again. (It's a native USB Microline 421). Maybe the printer is on its last legs, or more likely I haven't figured out the machine yet. It's on Windows 10 (!) and I've tried the Oki driver built into windows as well as the generic text dot matrix driver also built in (the latter uses the Oki's internal dot matrix font which I like). As the resident dot matrix expert, what would you recommend?

You can have first choice with the M122's without keys and inserts. $8 each if you want them. They require Soarer's converter to work with a PC. They are very dirty but the springs are not rusted from what I can see. 3 are the first gen/larger cases from around 1989 and 4 are the smaller cases from ~1990. I also still have the M101 parts boards, now reduced to $15 ea.

[Samir]

Yep that's right Samir - and no hard feelings! The volunteers certainly caused no time delay. The site is fully functional a week before it's needed and I have a good amount of content.

I've never operated a dot matrix printer before but I first notice that the top tray of my Oki Microline only takes one page at a time (can that behavior be changed?). It won't affect the project invoice printouts because I'll be using continuous form paper fed from the back. Also it seems not to like a second print job with both print jobs being from the top tray, unless I power off and on the machine again. (It's a native USB Microline 421). Maybe the printer is on its last legs, or more likely I haven't figured out the machine yet. It's on Windows 10 (!) and I've tried the Oki driver built into windows as well as the generic text dot matrix driver also built in (the latter uses the Oki's internal dot matrix font which I like). As the resident dot matrix expert, what would you recommend?

You can have first choice with the M122's without keys and inserts. $8 each if you want them. They require Soarer's converter to work with a PC. They are very dirty but the springs are not rusted from what I can see. 3 are the first gen/larger cases from around 1989 and 4 are the smaller cases from ~1990. I also still have the M101 parts boards, now reduced to $15 ea.

Glad to hear the site was online ahead of schedule. It's always hard with projects like these (or even projects of any sort) to have hard time deadlines that actually stick. I'm glad you're hitting your targets because that makes happy campers!

Hmmm...I have 320s, which are the predecessors to the 421 series. There really aren't 'trays' on dot matrix printers--just the platen (like on a typewriter) and the paper feed mechanism which can be selected between friction feed and pin-feed. Since you have the continuous paper (and I'm assuming you've got a box of it so 500+ sheets), just load in the continuous feed paper first and see what that does.

If you're using a single sheet (non-pinned paper), then that's expected behavior as the printer's buffer would have all the information and its just waiting for another sheet. But there's also a lever I believe on the right side to change between plain paper (friction feed) and pin-feed that also adjusts how the printer works in relation to continuous printing. I'll have to look at a 421 manual to really know what's going on.

But windows 10 and usb is going to be tough. You're going to be fighting 2 decades of computing progress to get that thing to print plain text natively. The good thing about these dot matrix printers is that they essentially just need a text file sent to them and they'll print it. So that's the challenge.

What I would try is putting in continuous feed paper and run the printer self-test--that will let you know the printer is fine (which I believe it is). Next, open up notepad or some other plain jane no fancy pants text editor and have it print to the printer. A plain text editor outputting plain text should be able to give the printer what it wants. It should print extremely fast for a dot matrix (570+ cps spec on that thing is crazy fast--300+ was fast back in the day). If it doesn't, some sort of system fonting/truetyping is going on and the printer's native font isn't being used (which is what you want). Then we'll have to try some other methods.

Thank you for the first dibs on the M122s. I have yet to have my soarer cable come in, so let me play with that first and see how I like it before getting with you about an order.

[Ellipse]

The prototypes and foam have been completed! They will be on their way to me this week via expedited shipping! Please note that the foam prototypes in the photos were adjusted/made with hand tools so they still have some rough areas and markings, but these will not be on the production styrofoam pieces.

Also the boxes in the photos are the correct double walled specification but will be opening from the side with the production boxes instead of on top like in the prototype boxes shown in the photos.

Also a reminder that the powdercoated case colors are prototype colors and may not be the final colors.

I wonder if I am overprotecting these keyboards - all this extra packaging is going to run up a hefty shipping bill from China.

Once production finishes (production takes 1-2 months), then it will take a few weeks for sea mail from China. I was thinking of offering the option to pay for DHL or other expedited shipping options where it goes DHL Express, etc. to me and then I test it and send it out expedited shipping. This might enable you to get the keyboard a few weeks faster than expected.

ok thanks Samir. I was able to get my Oki Microline to print text only with the Windows 10 built in text only driver (text only driver example printout shown in the earlier photo). This prints super fast with the built in dot matrix font.

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[Samir]

Glad you got the printing working. The final products, even in pre-production form, look quite amazing. NIce work!

[nh10798]

Is the second picture the Industrial gray?

[Muirium]

Looks about right! That indie F77 is so good looking I've got chills!

Of course, being strapped for cash at just the wrong time will do that to you.

[Ludovician]

Why are there springs in every barrel?

[chzel]

Moar keys!
Probably for testing?

[Muirium]

Yup. You can open the whole thing up and remove them quite easily anyway. Model F power!

[Elrick]

Looks about right! That indie F77 is so good looking I've got chills!

Of course, being strapped for cash at just the wrong time will do that to you.

I've got my moolah waiting for this when it finally goes live, been saving up for this for some time, a personal account dedicated to some Model-F goodness.

Even the Mrs doesn't know about it and she never will .

[scottc]

That grey F77 looks a bit off - too olive green.

[Ellipse]

Today I ordered a sampling of Unicomp key sets for testing, in anticipation of the prototypes arriving hopefully next week!

nh10798 - the second picture is the prototype industrial gray color. Once I see it in person I may change it.

Some project draft graphics will be posted soon for your feedback! For the project web site logo I expect to use a buckling spring animation similar to ones found online, plus a still version. The logo will also have a description of the keyboard in the same dot matrix font that will be used on the birthday labels - something like "F62 Model F Keyboard."