F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[wacko78]

+1 for F62

[Ellipse]

Yes I plan on offering the keyboard without key caps and maybe without barrels/flippers if rsbseb produces those up to standard and for a low enough price.

The barrels and flippers/springs are likely to add around $35 or so to the cost, so an old keyboard you take them from is probably worth more intact, no? Even if it is an XT or Bigfoot. And then if you ever decide to pass along both keyboards as intact/usable you wouldn't be able to unless you eventually buy another Model F for parts or if the parts are still sold at that time.

The main cost is with the metal parts. There are high setup and tooling costs. You are still probably looking at $300+ even without the barrels and flippers.

Here are the parts planned:

• Top metal cover - likely aluminum or zinc
  Bottom metal cover - likely aluminum or zinc
  Top inner assembly - cold rolled steel
  Bottom inner assembly - cold rolled steel
  Inside foam - 2 mm open cell, not sure of the type of foam yet.
  Clear mylar sheet (below the PCB)
  Barrels
  Flippers
  Outside EPS foam top shell
  Outside EPS foam bottom shell
  Cardboard box

Also I got some advice from one potential supplier regarding the recommended plastic. ABS PA-757 is both smooth and strong according to this web site: http://www.chimeicorp.com/en-us/products/plastics/abs/

They recommend 18% carbon infused Torayca ASHT-18A plastic for the flippers instead of electroplating (electroplating appears to be much more expensive).

Barrel
Material: ABS POLYLAC PA-757

Flipper
Material: Torayca ASHT-18A

[pyrelink]

Only $35 for barrels and pivot plates/springs? I figured that would be a good bit more expensive. I already have a couple donor F's, but at that price it's not that big of a deal.

Also, aren't the original pivot plates simply carbon infused? Would there be any benefit to electroplating?

[Ellipse]

pyrelink - I am not sure regarding the original composition. Someone would probably need to take the plastic parts to a lab to have them analyzed to be sure. I have reached out to Unicomp for help.

$35 is an estimate - no firm quotes yet so it may be higher.

[Air tree]

Ellipse you should really make a IC (I'd assume this is what it'd be under on GH) for this on GH now that's up. It'd garner a lot of interest, I would be willing to bet.

[Aer Fixus]

I'm so hyped. Although considering I have a Kishsaver already, I won't be committing any money until a prototype or first run makes an appearance. If you were to promise an SSK with a cast metal case, I'd empty my bank in a heartbeat*

I've been looking into building my own custom F and have periodically Googled around to see if others have seriously started and indeed it appears we may be seeing a few projects coming through soon. I'm still pursuing some small runs for myself and maybe enough to sell to cover my costs. All I need is a PCB and I have all the tools to make a personal one or two. (And I'm going to continue pursuing my projects anyway until something finally pokes its head out of the sand)

Maybe there will emerge a hand-made artisan Model F... Who wants to buy some hand made, Aer branded, multicolored F barrels at $30 a pop?

*Statements made while hyped may be exaggerated and may not reflect actual opinions.

[andrewjoy]

I would like to see and feel a sample of the barrel and flipper before i buy it with them , if not i think i woudl go no barrel and flipper, there is always a blue switch or bigfoot out there ready to give itself to the cause of keyboard perfection

would you be doing an exact close of the layout ? Or ISO mod ?

[Ellipse]

andrewjoy - The layout of the barrels will be the same as the original. Since it likely comes unassembled you can make it any layout that an original F62/77 would support.

Aer fixus - Yes I will be making one or more prototypes and making sure the parts function together like my original F77. The tolerances from the 1980s manufacturing are easily achieved with today's manufacturing standards, and these 80s tolerances are the same in my CAD models. Die casting and CNC milling can get to 0.2 mm or better today, while the original case has 1mm to 2mm of tolerance built in so that if the parts are slightly different from the original spec they will still work perfectly together - that's how the parts were originally designed. If the factory sends me something that is not what was specified in the CAD models then they will fix it. I make sure of this before engaging with them.

[dzhoou]

Hmm alu shell, I wonder how different in weight, cost and feel will that be compared to the original steel shell.

[Muirium]

There's a hell of a lot of that shell, remember. Alu will probably feel pretty damn nice, and surely less like a brick of lead than the original. Seriously, even my lap doesn't like putting up with a Kishsaver for long. It feels like a stack of several SSKs.

Ellipse: I'd consider an improvement on IBM's layout. They never supported the HHKB style split right shift. The barrels force you to split it the wrong way (extra 1u key on the inside edge, not the outside) which is the crucial flaw in the Kishsaver to me. I find the HHKB so much more elegant to type on because of this one, all important key. Using the Kish's bottom corner key as an Fn seems a minor difference, but my fingers scream it is not!

[hammelgammler]

Ellipse: I'd consider an improvement on IBM's layout. They never supported the HHKB style split right shift. The barrels force you to split it the wrong way (extra 1u key on the inside edge, not the outside) which is the crucial flaw in the Kishsaver to me. I find the HHKB so much more elegant to type on because of this one, all important key. Using the Kish's bottom corner key as an Fn seems a minor difference, but my fingers scream it is not!

+1
I would really like to split the right shift like on the HHKB, even on the F77. I don't really see the point for such a long right shift.

[Muirium]

Yup. I like that Fn key even on my TKLs, when available. Alas, IBM only allowed it backwards: for Brazilian layout I think. Let me find a picture…

[Khers]

I'm all in favour of that as well. At least as long as we can source 1.75 u keys for it... (ideally not a caps lock)

[Muirium]

Yeah… Unicomp only does stepped keys in 1.75u. They can print any old thing on them, or nothing, but there's no unstepped 1.75u available new.

I'm cool going for that anyway. But I don't speak for everyone, of course.

Also: the need to support 2.75u Shifts conflicts with this alternate barrel placement. Which is a pain. Those 2.75s are built assymmetrically, with the assumption they'll be on a left split rather than right split 2.75u.

[Ellipse]

Thanks for pointing out that issue Muirium - it seems like a very important feature to some of you but most people buying this (per the few dozen people that signed up interest so far) want to use Unicomp key caps or use one of their other IBM keycap sets. This barrel adjustment suggestion would require everyone to buy another key cap that currently does not exist if they want a regular shift.

I'm all ears if someone can devise a workable solution for both regular shift and split shift. But I wouldn't count on it as of now.

[Muirium]

Yeah, seems unlikely. Shame. Because that really is the epicentre of what makes the Kishsaver inferior to the HHKB, for me.

[fohat]

I enjoy the large right shift, but isn't splitting the spacebar why people crave the "Code" keys so dearly?

[Ellipse]

A well-known DT member has kindly volunteered to try to help design the F62 and F77 PCBs. He is open to adding extra pads around the spacebar area; I can add extra barrel holes in the top inner assembly once I know the exact spacing required - does anyone have this info?

By the way does anyone know the specific type of foam used in my F77 judging by the following photos? It appears to be 2mm foam of some kind that has a smooth/solid top and bottom surface.

20150610_174032 (2).jpg (264.85 KiB) Viewed 15015 times

20150610_174047 (2).jpg (385.09 KiB) Viewed 15015 times

[Nuum]

Looks like something like Ensolite to me.

[Ellipse]

Thanks Nuum!

[XMIT]

My contribution to the above bikeshedding: I can't use an HHKB effectively because I always hit right Shift - never left - and often hit the rightmost edge of it with the tip of my right pinky. I find an extra key there to be confusing.

If there is a way to make everyone happy by making this an option, great! For me, the ANSI TKL layout (with or without the function row) is about perfect.

[Muirium]

Since we're talking about 62 key and 77 key models (or at least 60% and TKL of some variety) how about doing it one way on the wee guy and another on the big one? A TKL doesn't have much to gain with split righ Shift, but on a 60% it's crucial!

Any 60%ers really like that abomination of a 2.75u key?

[Engicoder]

Enoslite make several different foams. Myself and others have used this foam with success.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#8647k102/=xx37ry

Its an extra soft Neoprene/EPDM/SBR

[bhtooefr]

I'm not entirely sure if I'm interested in this keyboard (as it maintains a few of the drawbacks of the original), but a new-production Model F 60% (or ANY Model F, for that matter) is interesting.

While there's some retro cool factor in the 6019284, ultimately, it's not that great of a keyboard nowadays due to the weight and the footprint. And, the barrels and flippers are the most important part - make those, and we've got everything we need to make a truly modern Model F. Controllers, cases, PCBs, barrel plates, all of that, we've got ways to make that (just look at wcass's project for the cases and barrel plates, and you're using the xwhatsit controller), and keycaps, we can get those from Unicomp.

I'll note that my preference in a 60% layout is to shave .5 U off the right side, although I'm aware that only having stepped keys for 1.75 U is a problem. (However... how hard would it be to get Unicomp to tool a 1.75 U non-stepped key? Volumes would almost certainly be better than for something like the double-shot group buys, as it's only one key that needs to be tooled, not one for every character, then it can be dye-subbed as needed. There is also a 1.75 U right shift set up for the Model M (so, same spacing as 4704, 104/122, and AT) as used on the 5576-C01, but I'd guess that the keycaps have been retooled once or twice since that thing's been discontinued.)

Looking through the wiki, looks like that spacing was done to enable the IBM 4980 to have another key crammed into row 4, to the left of right shift. The Japanese layouts stuck a key there too, but I doubt IBM designed the Model F with that in mind, as the 5550 and many PS/55s used locally-produced keyboards (Alps and Brother), the 5576-C01 being the only Lexington-designed buckling spring keyboard used in Japan. (IBM Japan did heavily use the buckling rubber sleeve keyboards designed by Lexmark, though, on the PS/55 Note line, which evolved into the ThinkPad line. (In fact, much of the PS/55 Note line is actually branded as "ThinkPad PS/55 Note", even the ones that nowadays we wouldn't really consider "true ThinkPads" like the ThinkPad PS/55 Note C23V (but I'd argue that it's more of a "true ThinkPad" than the Zenith-built 300...), and IBM Japan used their own model name for what we called the ThinkPad 700C PS/2 - the ThinkPad PS/55 Note C52.))

[Muirium]

IBM was pretty smart about barrel placement. They got ANSI, ISO and even JIS in one go. Even if they didn't need to! Indeed, the AT is a fantastic ANSI board once you split its big ass Enter. I'm relived they made that possible from the start.

But IBM didn't design the 60% Kishsaver with a function layer in mind. Didn't have the HHKB as inspiration. And so wound up making boards with a different compromise on right Shift than the 60% guys like me would truly love. There's more "wrong" with the Kishsaver as a modern 60% board than that. It's practically a TKL in footprint! But my goodness that single key would make it better by leaps and bounds for me.

[bhtooefr]

Well, except they didn't get JIS in one go - the 5576-C01 uses a different barrel arrangement from every other Model M variant, for the bottom row keys.

Basically, that barrel placement of right shift benefited one keyboard, and one keyboard only, the 4980 terminal's keyboard. The only other thing that used it needed retooling anyway.

Mind you, my optimum 60% layout actually has the big right shift, but I simply don't use that area of the keyboard. (It's basically, mechanically, nearly identical to the layout used on Apple //e and //c keyboards, minus the reset key. Actually, I've half considered modding a //c Memory Expansion keyboard, as it's got my favorite variant of Alps switches already, too.)

[Muirium]

Good catch. I should still be pissed off with them. Not that they were to know the HHKB would come out and school them one day. But still!

I literally cannot comprehend what you said about your own view on right shift though. Do you never touch it? Did you lose your right arm in a kayak accident? In any case, my condolences!

[bhtooefr]

I never touch it. I use right enter, and I use arrow keys in the lower right corner, but I almost never see a need to go for right side modifiers (the exception is AltGr, really), and I'd actually find a right side Fn awkward too, with it being too close to the arrow keys or whatever keys are acting as arrows.

[Muirium]

Fair enough. You should see my right hand on a 60%: wildly different story!

[pyrelink]

I am the same way. I don't use any of the right side modifiers, aside from FN. I do however quite like the short right shift and FN as I feel like standard right shift is just so unnecessarily long in comparison, and I find that position of the FN key to be the most natural.