Keyboard Lube

[Ian S]

ISO calibrated pH meters

Maybe that's partly why the little 'boutique' bottles are expensive?

[Ian S]

Maybe they just used it because it was cheap and acceptable, but not durable. We don't know.

Can we ask them? Of course I assume that's already been tried?

[webwit]

pH meters need to be calibrated with one or more calibration fluids, so it's not trivial, but you can get a reasonable set for 50 euro, cheaper for one-point calibration. If that pH requirement is serious of course. If the RO-59 is neutral, then it depends on your water. If you can get it at 6.8pH or higher, I don't see a problem (?).

[Ian S]

Rigs really likes RO-59 though.(See here)

Thanks for the link I was going to do the sliders as they are not lubricated.

My take on this is that it seems that the Cherry switches leave a lot to be desired. Or so many people wouldn't be so keen to improve them. I reckon they are a switch designed a long time ago to function reliably, last well in a work environment and be as cheap as possible to make.

Coming from a manual typewriter to an electronic typewriter in the 1980's, the keys were much more lightly sprung and the short travel was great. Then to a computer, typing all day at work, I was used to the MX-blacks as that's what there was, never bottomed out or missed characters by not pressing hard enough or pressing adjacent keys. After a few years of not doing typing work I began to make all those errors and changed to a rubber dome as it had some detent to the key travel and I thought that would help. Over the years I've become fatigued of the now perceived heavy key resistance of that rubber dome Zenith board and started looking for some much lighter ones, of which there were plenty. Then I stumbled on some stuff about 'mechanical' switches and so I dusted of the late 1980's Cherry G80 1000 and tried that again. I thought the Cherry keys were rubbish and remembered why I'd stopped using them, vague register point, wobbly, terrible noise, hard springs that the key caps wander around on, terrible noise. They seemed very low cost. Someone told me about MX-blues so I though I'd stick with it for a while, did some digging and ended up on the GH site and bought a board with MX-blues. Didn't like them at all. Now I have reds in the quietest board I could find and I'm finding it much better. I had to de-solder and swap around some switches 'cause the springs 'pinged' and it was too annoying. Took one apart to view innards and it re-enforced my view that they are a low cost switch as it seemed like it would not have cost much more to design them to be quiet, not wobbly, not feel like abrasives grinding, not have the key caps amplify the noise, not have the hard bottoming, not have the hard top end stop, not have the spring ping, not have the PCB resonate.

I think the lighter springs of the reds in the QPAD are a lot better. I tried the Cherry double shot key caps from the G80 in it and they had a much louder clack as the switch came up and hit the internal top. But are quieter with the 'sandpaper' noise. Overall I preferred the QPAD keys with their much less clack but I'd like to get rid of their emphasised sandpaper sound. Maybe the lube will do that. On the metal or on every other friction surface.

I might also try some acoustic damping paste carefully wiped into the top or / and sides of the key caps.

Sorry for the long story.

[fossala]

You can buy RO-59 tmKT strait from RO-59. It's what I got the quote on. Also he did confirm it was originally made for keytronic.

[andrewjoy]

stupid question but what lub should i use to replace the lub you get on stabilisers like the ones on a filco

[Djuzuh]

stupid question but what lub should i use to replace the lub you get on stabilisers like the ones on a filco

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,misc

[andrewjoy]

Meanwhile in the EU

[Ian S]

So then, if I'm reading all this correctly:

Limmy only lubed the plastic faces to metal tips areas, found it was worth doing, and found the oil over grease (over RO-59?) was best.

Rigs lubed only(?) the sliders (with RO-59?) and found that well worth doing.

I didn't want to have oil creeping out all over the place with time, as that what oil is supposed to do, including engine oil. Some oil thins out to 1 molecule film thickness, kind of thing. Engine oil has a lot of other components in it so it's a bit different, but I would expect it to creep very well and far.

• So then, would the way be to coat both the plastic to plastic, and the plastic to metal with RO-59, then over coat the plastic to metal faces with the grease?

• I wondered if the key cap stems can rub on the switch top edges as they enter the switch, and so add friction. Maybe exacerbated, or caused, by the switch top shuffle. I can't see into there to tell so I'd have to cut away a key cap leaving just the stem and I don't have an spare key caps. Someone here must have already done this?

• I wondered if the switch top movement helps to keep the moving stem centralised as it moves up and down and around, or at least not stuck in an off set position wearing fast at just a couple of touching points? Would it be important to keep the top very concentric with the bottom once the sticker is fitted?

[Ian S]

You can buy RO-59 tmKT strait from RO-59. It's what I got the quote on. Also he did confirm it was originally made for keytronic.

So if you / we can ascertain the difference, if any, of the KT from the other types, we might be able to decide if the £4 for 1 litre of concentrate from Hi-Tech will be adequate for this use, or not.


And then get a handle on the acidity issue. Maybe we could purchase it from Hi-Tech already agitated, diluted and neutralised?

[Ian S]

You can buy RO-59 tmKT strait from RO-59. It's what I got the quote on. Also he did confirm it was originally made for keytronic.

5 gallons would be around $350 plus shipping and tax. 5 gallons is there minimum order.
EDIT: that seems very cheap, better confirm with him over email.

Wowee that's a big price compared to what Hi-Tec quoted me of £17.20 for 5 litres for the tm8!!!!!!!!!!!!!

$350 ≈ £240 + 20% VAT into the UK = £288 + £10 duty = £298 + shipping. Ouch!

From this we can reason that either the KT variant is very super special or that RO-59 inc are hugely over quoting as they don't want the small order.

Even if they had to get a technician to specially make 5 litres of KT as a one off, how could that x 20 the price?

[Limmy]

Limmy only lubed the plastic faces to metal tips areas, found it was worth doing, and found the oil over grease (over RO-59?) was best.

I did lube sliders as well. Slider lube was first thing I tried when I began researching. I didn't feel much need to lube the metal leaf because it is already lubed and I was using linear switches. I preferred Krytox oil over Krytox grease, but it is certainly better to use them both in combination. Using the two compensated each others shortcomings.

• So then, would the way be to coat both the plastic to plastic, and the plastic to metal with RO-59, then over coat the plastic to metal faces with the grease?

Interesting question, but there is no definite answer. People like different things. Some do not like stickers or lube job, and some spend a lot of time working on them. You would never know what you like before you try them out though. Experiment and let us know what you like and why.

• I wondered if the key cap stems can rub on the switch top edges as they enter the switch, and so add friction. Maybe exacerbated, or caused, by the switch top shuffle. I can't see into there to tell so I'd have to cut away a key cap leaving just the stem and I don't have an spare key caps. Someone here must have already done this?

• I wondered if the switch top movement helps to keep the moving stem centralised as it moves up and down and around, or at least not stuck in an off set position wearing fast at just a couple of touching points? Would it be important to keep the top very concentric with the bottom once the sticker is fitted?

My take on this issue is that vintage switches, which are seen as better quality switches compared to the modern ones, have less rattle and are noticeably smoother. I do not have modern blacks to compare with but I could certainly feel the difference between modern reds with vintage black switches. Vintage ones seems to fit tighter and to be smoother. So, upon these observations I conjecture modern Cherry MX switches has degraded a bit, although they might still pass the rigorous test of Cherry Corp.

Also, not all lube are the same. I tried many lube on one of keys on my rubber dome that was particularly sticky when I pressed on the corner. Krytox by far has shown best performance by significant margin on that one key. Krytox are expensive and I don't think lube Cherry used on their boards have same performance as the expensive ones. There are several other people on Korean forum who searched for alternative for Krytox, but none so far worked better than Krytox. I have seen some people in KBDMania try Dow corning molykote and some Japanese silicone lube and chose Krytox over them. I do not want to rule out possibility that there are better lube suited for keyboards and I want to explore more, but I am pretty content with the performance of Krytox. I might change my mind later on, but given the information at hand, my conclusion/recommendation is pretty firm.

Once we get people to use Krytox, we will have more comparison data and I will be able to adjust or strengthen my belief. But until then there are no other information other than my personal encounter with the lube and some anecdotal stories.

[Ian S]

I might also try some acoustic damping paste carefully wiped into the top or / and sides of the key caps.

Maybe with this one: http://www.secondskinaudio.co.uk/liquids.html
"Second Skin Spectrum Sludge is the thickest vibration putty/paste on the market."

There's a possibility that it'll make the key caps heavier and they'll slap harder as they stop at the top, as the extra mass has to de-energise.

But will they be quieter anyway??

[Limmy]

Interesting idea. Since the treatment seems to be permanent and not so plastic friendly it is going to be highly risky and experimental.

I would think it would work, but I don't have enough spare keys to try them out. It is going to be hard to obtain small amount of those too. Do you know of any sound damping material that is easy to get, in liquid form, not harmful to plastic, and perhaps removable?

[possum]

My take on this is that it seems that the Cherry switches leave a lot to be desired. Or so many people wouldn't be so keen to improve them. I reckon they are a switch designed a long time ago to function reliably, last well in a work environment and be as cheap as possible to make.

Very well put. The other brands as well. Mechanical switches seem great in comparison to RD but if you were to compare them to, e.g., an ordinary mini-toggle of the type that you'd use in a DIY project, they'd be regarded as plastic junk.

Of course when a product uses 105 of them, cost is a salient factor. Still, it'd be interesting to know if there was such a thing as a high-quality keyswitch - one with more metal, closer tolerances. There's hundreds of pushbutton switches on mouser but the few i've scrutinized all have some limiting factor - minuscule travel, ludicrous activation force, etc. I suppose keyboard switches are a very specific application. Anyone heard of such a thing?

[possum]

I might also try some acoustic damping paste carefully wiped into the top or / and sides of the key caps.

Maybe with this one: http://www.secondskinaudio.co.uk/liquids.html
"Second Skin Spectrum Sludge is the thickest vibration putty/paste on the market."

There's a possibility that it'll make the key caps heavier and they'll slap harder as they stop at the top, as the extra mass has to de-energise.

But will they be quieter anyway??

Seconded that this is interesting. My guess would be that they would slap softer as the spring is now pushing more mass upwards - extrapolate that if you added sufficient mass they wouldn't slap at all but would come to rest just shy of the detent.

Now that you've pointed it out, it does seem like thin material would resonate. Perhaps that's why people express a preference for thick caps. Is there clearance on the inside of the cap to put the material?

So as to whether they'll be quieter, please let us know!

[damorgue]

I have heard that very old cherry switches had a case with tighter specs. It would seem reasonable that the casts might get worn, or that they changed the tolerances to decrease the number of switches that were too tight and which did not pass QC later on.

On the other hand, it also seems like a perfect hearsay rumor to pop up among enthusiasts.

Perhaps there are switches that comply to IP classes that are of higher grades. But then again, it would probably be so much easier to seal the entire switch shut inside a rubber bubble rather than to try to seal the stem to the casing.

[Ian S]

I have heard that very old cherry switches had a case with tighter specs.

A few months ago I telephoned Cherry UK and asked that question. The man there emphatically denied that the switch tolerances had changed. Stated they are the same now as in the 1980's.

[Ian S]

My guess would be that they would slap softer as the spring is now pushing more mass upwards

But if it did hit, how much energy would there be.

I weighed ten of my Cherry double shot key-caps, a mixed selection of key cap heights, and it came to 11 grams, so, for ease of thinking, let's call it an average mass of 1 gram.

We can only guess at the damping material mass but lets say 1 gram.
Assume the spring takes 50 grams to fully compress it.
Acceleration from bottom to top is 4mm.

So 50 grams of force is accelerating 1gram by 4mm.

How much momentum has the cap when it stops at the top?

Doubling the mass to 2grams.

Does that then accelerate at half the rate and arrives at half the velocity?

Is the energy dissipated the same? Therefore the strength of impact the same?

Perhaps one of you who still remembers Newtonian Physics can work it out (or ask your teenage kids to), I appear to have forgotten how!

Now that you've pointed it out, it does seem like thin material would resonate. Perhaps that's why people express a preference for thick caps. Is there clearance on the inside of the cap to put the material?

The type of material and the shape of the key-cap will probably also have an effect. The QPAD caps have more high frequency sound and 'amplify' the 'sandpaper' sound, whereas the Cherry double shots 'amplify' the 'tok' of the upper end stop but have not much sandpaper sound. On balance I preferred the sound of the QPAD caps.

[damorgue]

D-D-Double post

Mu-Mu-Multi kill


Nah, but to answer, The spring is linear and at its rest position, it will apply zero force on the stem. If we open a housing and take of the stem one can see that they differ a bit in length. Some are almost short enough to barely hold the switch up, but still have about the same bottoming out force while others have a longer spring which becomes pre-loaded when the housing is snapped into place. They will have a more constant force.

[Ian S]

Sorry about the multi post; didn't see that it was saving a new post each time I edited. Have reported the duplicate posts and requested them to be deleted

I've only taken out springs from two boards; one the 'Vintage' cherry black, and one the new red. If I recall correctly both were longer and therefore pre-loaded. I didn't look at each springs open length.

Are the short springs custom ones? Does anyone make non linear springs that are lighter to start then firm up nearer to the bottom? I've not yet looked for custom springs.

[pyro]

Does anyone make non linear springs that are lighter to start then firm up nearer to the bottom? I've not yet looked for custom springs.

That sounds like MY switches. Few people like them.

[RC-1140]

Does anyone make non linear springs that are lighter to start then firm up nearer to the bottom? I've not yet looked for custom springs.

Springs are always obey Hooke's law, so there are no "non-linear" springs. Hooke's law is always based on a multiplication, and is therefore always linear.

[Ian S]

It was a mistake to use the phrase 'non linear'.

Are there not springs with closer spaced coils at one end?

Adding up to a lighter spring until the tighter, or looser, coils compress, then the rest of the springs takes over? Seen them in after market suspension kits for performance cars. Sometimes called progressive springs.

Found some photos: http://www.hamann-motorsport.com/en/tun ... uspension/

http://flaminsuds.tripod.com/id5.html

[damorgue]

There are springs which are for instance exponential, but they are not just normal coils. Smalley makes some pretty awesome springs too.

Edit: I would venture a guess that the springs you linked above are also linear, they just dampen different frequencies different amounts.

[Ian S]

they just dampen different frequencies different amounts.

No, it's related to compression distance. Either lower or higher frequency, if the movement is small enough for the particular spring, the more compliant part of the spring deals with it.


That would work well with these Cherry keys. Light movement until just after the contact point, then firming up progressively to not just prevent bottoming out, but train the user to press the keys less far to actuate them.

Even after several months I'm still thwacking the keys hard down when typing faster. Just can't seem to stop it. Either on the MX-blues or the reds. After 10 years using a hard resistance rubber dome keyboard. Though I have adjusted to pressing less hard so maybe in months more I'll have got there.

[Djuzuh]

they just dampen different frequencies different amounts.

No, it's related to compression distance. Either lower or higher frequency, if the movement is small enough for the particular spring, the more compliant part of the spring deals with it.


That would work well with these Cherry keys. Light movement until just after the contact point, then firming up progressively to not just prevent bottoming out, but train the user to press the keys less far to actuate them.

Even after several months I'm still thwacking the keys hard down when typing faster. Just can't seem to stop it. Either on the MX-blues or the reds. After 10 years using a hard resistance rubber dome keyboard. Though I have adjusted to pressing less hard though so maybe in months more I'll have got there.

I explode my cherry MX blues too each time I press them.

But you know what? I enjoy it like hell !

[damorgue]

There is the unloaded length of the springs. I wonder if there is any thought behind having some more preloaded than others. I think my board with reds have a problem that the springs turns when it is compressed which causes a continuous scratchy sound which is emphasized by setting the spring in vibration.

[Ian S]

Nice

I wonder if the more open spring on the right gets proportionally harder per length of compression than those on the right with more coils per centimetre? Or if they're the same rate?

[Ian S]

• permanent and not so plastic friendly
• hard to obtain small amount.
• Do you know of any sound damping material that is easy to get, in liquid form, not harmful to plastic, and perhaps removable?

Maybe this: http://www.deadening.co.uk/chp-paste-13 ... ingle.html

CHP extreme; paint on, water based.

I was told (by the vendor, CAD who used to import to the UK the Second Skin until the recent price rises), that it's "just as good as Second Skin paste".

Available in the UK from Car Audio Direct, as linked to.
1Kg: £18 inc VAT.

CHP are a German Manufacturer,