[IC] A true GH/DT custom keyboard kit - What do you want to see?

User avatar
photekq
Cherry Picker

06 Mar 2016, 17:07

Poll/questionnaire here

I know that custom CNC keyboards aren't as popular here as they are over at Geekhack, but I'm still interested to hear Deskthority's feedback!

Background

I wished to apply the lessons I had learned from my TEK-80 custom project. I decided I would design a TKL and a 65% keyboard. Since then, however, I have decided it would be best to focus on one keyboard, and using a HHKB has opened my mind to the 60% layout. I'm absolutely serious about seeing this project through to the end whether it be in the form of a group buy or a readily available kit.

The keyboard and project goals

My primary goal for the project is to provide a fully fledged custom kit that is on par with (and possibly/hopefully beyond) Korean customs in terms of build quality and features. My secondary goal is to have it entirely designed by members of Geekhack and Deskthority, making it stand on its own as a true GH/DT custom keyboard kit. I hope to have a PCB designed by contributing members here, and I'm prepared to pay for this if necessary. A tertiary goal is to have the kit produced in UK/Europe/USA, although I'm not sure how viable this is. We'll see.

I have decided upon an aesthetic for the keyboard, which I made rough CAD files around. Regardless of the form factor chosen this will be the aesthetic, barring the logo which has not been decided upon :

Image
Image
Image
Renders by thesiscamper

The purpose of this thread/poll

The purpose of this is for me to be able to gauge interest in the various form factors and also to gauge the importance of certain features. I do not wish to enter a section of the custom market only to find that it's saturated or devoid of interest, so knowing the popularity of the various form factors is important to me at this stage. It would be incredibly helpful if anyone who is interested in purchasing custom keyboards could fill out the poll at the top of this post. For anything not covered in that poll or for any other comments/questions please do post in this thread.

Format of sale

I feel that this field of the poll does deserve an explanation. While nothing other than a traditional group buy had crossed my mind initially, it's now apparent to me that it's perhaps not the best format for selling a custom keyboard kit. Massdrop has expressed their interest in running something like this to me; running something like this would likely lead to lower prices and less work for me. However, I understand that it may also lead to less exclusivity and a disconnect from this forum. Quality would also have to be looked at very seriously. Having a batch of these made and then sold from a store also seems like a viable option to me. I would love to heard your thoughts on this subject.

Thanks so much for reading.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

06 Mar 2016, 17:30

Give us Alps compatibility and you better believe you got interest!

(Number of posts an otherwise delicious MX keyboard IC thread on DT takes to mention Alps: 1.)

User avatar
photekq
Cherry Picker

06 Mar 2016, 17:34

Muirium wrote: Give us Alps compatibility and you better believe you got interest!

(Number of posts an otherwise delicious MX keyboard IC thread on DT takes to mention Alps: 1.)
Hey! I never said this was MX only! Check the poll, there is an option there for alps compatibility ;)

There is no doubt in my mind that alps will be supported, I would just like to see how many people would actually want to use it.

User avatar
Spikebolt
√(4) != -2

06 Mar 2016, 17:36

TMK compability would be something most people would appreciate, I think. Personally I would like the option to have a split backspace in order to create a HHKB-ish layout.

The render looks great but I doubt the price will be reasonable enough for me to join. The interest is definitely there, though.

User avatar
photekq
Cherry Picker

06 Mar 2016, 17:39

Spikebolt wrote: TMK compability would be something most people would appreciate, I think. Personally I would like the option to have a split backspace in order to create a HHKB-ish layout.

The render looks great but I doubt the price will be reasonable enough for me to join. The interest is definitely there, though.
What is it about TMK specifically that would make you want compatibility? I really don't know too much about it. Does it offer anything beyond full reprogrammability?

What price would you call reasonable?

User avatar
ramnes
ПБТ НАВСЕГДА

06 Mar 2016, 17:52

I love the logo, and even more the idea of an "English custom". :mrgreen:

As I already told you, I'm not really fond of the bottom case shape and I'd also like it a bit less inclined, but that's still a great keyboard, and the renders are really impressive. But what are those three holes behind?

Also, I'd prefere the cable to be centered. I never understood why cables are always on one side or the other.

Like Murium, I'd love Alps compatibility, but on the same PCB, not another one. Allowing PCB MX switches would be great. ISO too.

For the sale, GB (or private sale) and then store with limited quantities seems the best option to me. Please no Massdrop!

A 65% where you can use standard keycaps would be awesome too. I don't know if that's really the scope of that thread, but I'd love a custom FC660C case looking just like your case right here!

Finally, I'd be much more inclined to buy if the firmware is open-source and easily hackable, weither it's TMK, EasyAVR (that open-sourced recently), or anything else.

User avatar
Spikebolt
√(4) != -2

06 Mar 2016, 17:53

Full reprogrammability is what I want, should have worded it better.

I have always loved boards like the Orion V2, TGR Jane or OTD but I can't justify paying 400$ for something like that. I would have troubles getting over the 250$ mark, though I'm not sure that would be enough to produce everything.

User avatar
photekq
Cherry Picker

06 Mar 2016, 17:59

The three holes at the back are for screws.

See, the only issue with having alps and MX on the same PCB is that if you're supporting many bottom row arrangements (particularly an issue on 65%) then the holes tend to overlap in a way that isn't functional. It may end up having to be split between two PCBs for this reason. They would be identical, just with holes for alps and MX respectively. You would need different plates for alps and MX anyway. If this ends up being a TKL it wouldn't be necessary to have 2 PCBs though.

--

You mentioning 65% with standard keycaps reminds me of another issue in my mind..

If this were to be a 65% with alps support which keycaps would people plan to use? There aren't a hell of a lot of vintage alps boards with 1.75u shifts, so perhaps most people would start to look towards SP. Something like this for example.
Spikebolt wrote: Full reprogrammability is what I want, should have worded it better.

I have always loved boards like the Orion V2, TGR Jane or OTD but I can't justify paying 400$ for something like that. I would have troubles getting over the 250$ mark, though I'm not sure that would be enough to produce everything.
Yes, I think for a full CNC casing w/ PCB in a traditional group buy $250 seems unattainable.

Hak Foo

06 Mar 2016, 18:22

Actually, 1.75x right shifts aren't that hard on ALPS. The Focus 2001 and 9000 often have them, as do a fair number of other boards which feature bigass enters and 2u backspaces.

The hardest part is an ANSI-style |\ and Enter.

User avatar
DanielT
Un petit village gaulois d'Armorique…

06 Mar 2016, 18:32

As a 60% lover I would like to see a 60% :) I don't care about Alps, getting caps for Alps is a pain and a switch without a good cap has zero value to me. I would live to see the ultimate 60% something I could call my last custom board that I need.
What it's important to me is to be low but not to show the plate. A polycarb plate would be nice. For the case I like the profile from the renders I would love to see the same in a 60% . Don't care about LED's, I have boards with lights and I almost never use the lights except to show off :lol:

User avatar
Madhias
BS TORPE

06 Mar 2016, 19:40

Ah, now I saw the poll! Maybe because it is in the same color as the other headlines. And I was searching for the poll...

Great news, Photekq! I'd prefer a TKL, but a 65% too. A 'normal' 60% would be for me too common, there are so many aluminium cases out there! Or I just feel like there are lots of cases in this form factor.

User avatar
ramnes
ПБТ НАВСЕГДА

06 Mar 2016, 19:44

Madhias wrote: A 'normal' 60% would be for me too common, there are so many aluminium cases out there!
I feel myself that there are a lot more TKL than real 60% customs! Except the KMAC Happy and Duck's Vyper, there's not much to get. Low profile cases don't count!

User avatar
Madhias
BS TORPE

06 Mar 2016, 19:45

But it is so easy to buy aluminium 60% cases at Taobao!

/Edit: that's true of course, like the Vyper or Happy not really, I was thinking of "normal" 60% cases.
Last edited by Madhias on 06 Mar 2016, 19:55, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

06 Mar 2016, 19:54

Any good ones to suggest for my Hasu Blue Alps 60% project? I've no idea how you guys navigate Taobao.

User avatar
trenzafeeds

06 Mar 2016, 20:29

This is very cool. I remember your original post on GH with the prototype for a new board, and I'm really excited to see where you are going with it. It seems like you're going for lots of community input, which I like.

Wilkie

06 Mar 2016, 20:49

Format: TKL with more keys above F row or on the left.

Logo: Not on top. Side, back, bottom are okay.

Adjustable angle would be great, but the angle seems fixed from the renders.

Serious investigation into plate materials. Don't some Korean customs have polycarbonate plates? What are pros/cons of different plate materials, what is full range of options?

PCB-mount option for GMK QMX-Clip?

User avatar
hammelgammler
Vintage

06 Mar 2016, 20:58

Wow, a TKL winkeyless or TKL 1.5U 1U 1.5U with alps support would be great!
There is no really good alternative besides the KBParadise V80MTS in regards of TKL with alps support.

User avatar
Scarpia

06 Mar 2016, 21:37

A few thoughts about form factors:

TKL
It's true that standard TKLs are already easy to find, but I think that's partly because they are so damn easy to find caps for, which should factor in when designing a board for enthusiasts.

60%
The 60% form factor already has a couple of ultra high profile boards with top of the line materials and switches, and I don't know how many custom 60%s you'd sell with HHKB etc. already eating that cake at a similar price point. Of course, if you built an Alps-compatible board like that, you'd be offering something unique and potentially exciting.

(As an aside, the question of 60 versus 65 for me personally all comes down to the arrow keys. I personally want them, and that's what tips the scale in favor of the 65s; but then there's a board like the Leopold FC660 which has arrow keys but is still considered 60%, which makes it a lot more desirable than the HHKB in my eyes)

65%
This for me is where the action is right now. There aren't many options in the 65% form factor, perhaps because 65s always have a key or three for which you can't really find replacement caps. This may be a weakness, or it may be exactly the unique selling point you need in a custom kit. Certainly, a 65% with standard keycap sizes would be game changing, at least for arrow key addicts like me; it would instantly make every TKL on the market irrelevant and open a world of customization options, something which no other premium compact (sub-TKL) board with arrow keys can currently say (someone correct me on this if I'm wrong please).

User avatar
photekq
Cherry Picker

07 Mar 2016, 14:29

I must say that 65% is very attractive to me. The one thing that is dissuading me from it is the alps compatibility. It's not so easy to find nice keysets to perfectly fit that layout! In fact, it's not even that easy for MX if you want all the profiles to be 100% correct.

TKL on the other hand.. you can just chuck on a full ANSI SGI set.

Here are the current poll results on form factor :

Image

User avatar
Muirium
µ

07 Mar 2016, 14:34

TKL in the lead, eh?

I don't understand the various 60% layout options in the poll. What's a 1.5 vs 1.25 Pure? Diagrams would help. Doing a web search for Pure and Poker doesn't help to remind me: it's all Vegas chicks.

User avatar
photekq
Cherry Picker

07 Mar 2016, 14:38

1.25 Pure refers to (KBT Pure) this layout. Basically a regular layout but with a short right shift and 1u key. 1.5 Pure is the same, but with a winkeyless bottom row. Same for Poker (KBT Poker), except Poker is with a long shift rather than a short one.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

07 Mar 2016, 14:40

Oh right. Then what I want is a 1.25 Pure with split Backspace, HHKB style. Like that steel 60% I built back in 2013.

Basically I want an Alps HHKB in an awesome case of your design. But with a full complement of bottom row mods! A TKL would be my second preference, in which case standard ANSI 1.25 makes as much sense.

User avatar
photekq
Cherry Picker

07 Mar 2016, 14:52

Muirium wrote: A TKL would be my second preference, in which case standard ANSI 1.25 makes as much sense.
Sure you don't want it in winkeyless for that SDU set? :mrgreen:

User avatar
Muirium
µ

07 Mar 2016, 15:25

Ohhhh yeah…

What we really need is a custom keyboard custom designed for those G81 dyesub sets out there without a home to go. We can save them!

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

07 Mar 2016, 15:46

Alps is a must please don't make it a 60% there are already plenty of those.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

07 Mar 2016, 16:50

That's what Matt3o says too. Which is why he's forever working on "65%" stuff.

But there are too many of those. Show some 60 love!

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2016, 17:09

If you wanna show love, make a 69% !

What always turns me off about 60% Alps keyboards is the lack of really good caps. I just don't want to have a big ass enter key. The only chunky Alps caps I have plenty of are the AEK caps. And for few good vintage Alps caps I treasure, I'd need plate mounted Alps stabilizers.

So my guess is the interest in an Alps version is goint to be limited unless you somehow find a way to offer decent keycaps that support the most popular layouts.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

07 Mar 2016, 17:13

Could we just make it a TKL please :)

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

07 Mar 2016, 17:21

With a TKL, usually see very little necessity to do any kind of programming and key mapping. All the keys are already there ... What's the benefit of having a custom keyboard kit then ?

It's a real question, not just trying to be negative. I've been living with "stock" TKL keyboards very well so far.

User avatar
scottc

07 Mar 2016, 17:27

I've asked the same question before, you're not alone! Now that I've got a couple of programmable TKLs I actually find programmability really useful. I mostly use it for fluff like media control, volume, etc.

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