KBParadise V60 (60%) Alps Issues

hellothere · 24 Jan 2022, 02:23

Making a short story long ...

I bought the above keyboard. It was listed as "not tested, no other info." I got it and it had all Matias Quiet Clicks, but about 8 switches were dead. No worries: I intended to replace all the switches anyhow. I've got just enough extra Alps blues. So, switch swap was done. Hooked it up to test ...

No power. No power lights. Keyboard doesn't go "boop-do-de-boop!" when I plug it into my Windows box. I don't see it listed as an input device. I tested different USB ports and cables.

So, I assume I have a few options:

* Cry and/or ...
* Try to find a PCB for sale. Checked a variety of places. Nope. The Alps version of the V60 is also discontinued. Anybody got a V60 PCB or compatible that they have that's just gathering dust?
* Trace the matrix and replace controller. Anybody got ideas on how or can point me to a good thread, preferably with a lot of pictures?
* Manually wire the thing. I've seen the guides and they don't look terribly hard. Time consuming, tho.

Thankfully, the keyboard was not terribly expensive and it only has a plastic case. Steel mounting plate. And I got keycaps with it.

Polecat · 24 Jan 2022, 02:57

Assuming it worked before (other than the 8 switches), and that you didn't do anything destructive to it while swapping the switches, it should be repairable. Broken trace or cable is most likely.

Muirium · 24 Jan 2022, 12:44

Yes. Send gory pics of your PCB! A good overall plan shot should let us see.

hellothere · 24 Jan 2022, 16:32

Just adjusted for file size. They're big pics.

* That grey work mat is anti-static. I also haven't fried a circuit board with static electricity since the 1990s.
* That microcontroller looks bad, but I didn't do any work even close to it.
* It's not clean.
.

Spoiler:

Polecat · 24 Jan 2022, 17:31

hellothere wrote: ↑
24 Jan 2022, 16:32
Just adjusted for file size. They're big pics.

* That grey work mat is anti-static. I also haven't fried a circuit board with static electricity since the 1990s.
* That microcontroller looks bad, but I didn't do any work even close to it.
* It's not clean.

Dipswitch #5 and maybe #6 look to be somewhere between off and on, just for grins you might try playing with those a bit.

Muirium · 24 Jan 2022, 17:40

Seconded. They might be all that’s wrong.

hellothere · 24 Jan 2022, 19:10

DIP switches reset. Didn't work.

I tried with a powered USB hub I have, too. Didn't work.

I appreciate the suggestions!

Muirium · 24 Jan 2022, 19:56

Does anything light up? I’m used to community PCBs having an SMD LED to report controller status. (Though seldom explained!) Usually one of those will blink briefly on power up. Try hooking up to the hub WITHOUT your computer connected.

I’d also try another host before getting real close up with the next suspects: the USB socket and the controller chip.

hellothere · 25 Jan 2022, 19:15

Already tried on both my Win box and Mac, so not a computer issue.

It has two LEDs, one by the Caps Lock and one by the right Shift key. Neither flashes or turn on. When I had originally tested the KB, there were keycaps covering both LEDs, so I have no idea if they are supposed to come on.

I'll play around with the hub. Wish me luck!

jsheradin · 25 Jan 2022, 20:24

Hard to tell from the photos but it looks like there's a good amount of flux and glitter around the controller area. It's almost like it was shoddily reflowed. Might be worth taking a heat gun to it to make sure all the joints are sound. Also, definitely give it a scrub with a toothbrush and some iso in case something's shorting out.

hellothere · 25 Jan 2022, 22:45

Mu, I tried your suggestion with a powered USB hub. The Caps Lock light flashes very briefly and not brightly, not as soon as I turn on the power, but about the time I could enter BIOS. I did try to enter BIOS and that didn't work.

IPA will be applied and heat gun tried. Not at the same time

.

I will mention that I do have a multimeter and I can test to see if there's continuity, but that's about the extent of my electronics knowledge. I make up for that with enthusiasm!

Muirium · 25 Jan 2022, 23:05

Says to me your attention should turn to the intimidating black box that is the controller. This board was working fine before you worked on it, right?

Polecat · 26 Jan 2022, 03:17

Probably silly questions, but are the switches documented, and are you sure they're set correctly?

hellothere · 26 Jan 2022, 14:58

jsheradin wrote: ↑
25 Jan 2022, 20:24
Hard to tell from the photos but it looks like there's a good amount of flux and glitter around the controller area. It's almost like it was shoddily reflowed. Might be worth taking a heat gun to it to make sure all the joints are sound. Also, definitely give it a scrub with a toothbrush and some iso in case something's shorting out.

I had some success. At the moment, all but 10 keys are now working. So, TIL: flux residue can cause keys not to be recognized.

Muirium wrote: ↑
25 Jan 2022, 23:05
Says to me your attention should turn to the intimidating black box that is the controller. This board was working fine before you worked on it, right?

Except for about 8 keys.

Polecat wrote: ↑
26 Jan 2022, 03:17
Probably silly questions, but are the switches documented, and are you sure they're set correctly?

Yes and yes. The DIP switches are used to change keyboard layout options, like swapping the Caps Lock and Control keys. All off seems to be the factory default, based on looking at DIP switch setting pics on teh Internet, KBParadise's website, and the picture of one that's in the Wiki. I currently have the DIP switches set to all off.

I can check for continuity on the dead-ish keys in a little bit.

Thanks, everyone, for your help. I still need a bit more, but I'm really happy with the progress!

Muirium · 26 Jan 2022, 16:17

You’d dodged the bullet then. Working keys are a sign of a healthy controller. It’s your connections on the PCB that need some work.

jsheradin · 26 Jan 2022, 17:34

Flux is mildly corrosive over a long period if it's not cleaned off. There's a chance there's some dodgy connections on the controller side of things if cleaning/wiggling fixed it partially.

Did you try reflowing the controller area yet?

hellothere · 26 Jan 2022, 19:46

jsheradin wrote: ↑
26 Jan 2022, 17:34
Did you try reflowing the controller area yet?

Haven't yet. I wanted to make sure the thing was all dried out before doing so. Will try to in an hour-ish.

hellothere · 27 Jan 2022, 00:06

Or slightly more.

Didn't help, may have slightly hurt. Now 11 keys don't work and the Caps Lock is getting a little iffy. Happily, the one I repaired with that orange piece of wire is working.

I'll try swapping out some known good switches. A couple of the keys that aren't working are very easy to see the traces on and they have continuity, so I don't see a reason for them not to work.

The 11 are also all over the keyboard, not bunched into one area.

jsheradin · 27 Jan 2022, 00:32

hellothere wrote: ↑
27 Jan 2022, 00:06
Or slightly more.

Didn't help, may have slightly hurt. Now 11 keys don't work and the Caps Lock is getting a little iffy. Happily, the one I repaired with that orange piece of wire is working.

I'll try swapping out some known good switches. A couple of the keys that aren't working are very easy to see the traces on and they have continuity, so I don't see a reason for them not to work.

The 11 are also all over the keyboard, not bunched into one area.

Check the switches with a multimeter. If they're not all clumped onto a single row/column then it may just be bad switchplates.

hellothere · 29 Jan 2022, 04:11

So, status update:

I swapped out all of the switches that weren't working with switches that were known good. That was partially successful, so I'm working on making sure a switch works and swapping them around. For an example, I know the spacebar switch works, so swap that with the "O" switch that doesn't work.

I've also had some success taking a "dead" switch and filing down the legs then re-soldering. I might be cleaning off the legs or something and that's what makes a difference. Dunno. As long as it works, right?

Polecat · 29 Jan 2022, 04:36

hellothere wrote: ↑
29 Jan 2022, 04:11
So, status update:

I swapped out all of the switches that weren't working with switches that were known good. That was partially successful, so I'm working on making sure a switch works and swapping them around. For an example, I know the spacebar switch works, so swap that with the "O" switch that doesn't work.

I've also had some success taking a "dead" switch and filing down the legs then re-soldering. I might be cleaning off the legs or something and that's what makes a difference. Dunno. As long as it works, right?

Hmmm. What kind of solder are you using? Should be 60/40 or 63/37, with a rosin core flux. The lead-free stuff isn't worth a damn, except for plumbing of course. And you need the flux to clean the surfaces and make it flow properly. I use Kester 44 when I have the choice.

edit: It's also possible that physically wiggling the pins is breaking away dirt or oxidation on the inside of the switches.

hellothere · 29 Jan 2022, 19:29

63/37 1.8% flux. I've used this quite often, so I know it works. Of course, there could be something new and odd that just applies to KBParadise keyboards.

Current update: it's now 13 keys.

So, not bad switches. Not bad continuity. Any other ideas? I'm pretty much ready to call it a no-go. I've spent a lot of time on this and I could put those switches to use in another keyboard.

jsheradin · 29 Jan 2022, 20:50

hellothere wrote: ↑
29 Jan 2022, 19:29
63/37 1.8% flux. I've used this quite often, so I know it works. Of course, there could be something new and odd that just applies to KBParadise keyboards.

Current update: it's now 13 keys.

So, not bad switches. Not bad continuity. Any other ideas? I'm pretty much ready to call it a no-go. I've spent a lot of time on this and I could put those switches to use in another keyboard.

My bet's still on dodgy controller connections. You can try the lazy wick technique on it maybe:

Spoiler:

Basically add a caterpillar of solder across all the legs and make sure it's well tinned. Then use some solder wick to remove the excess.

Also might be worth checking the diodes for the switches. The solder joints in general look pretty sad on that board.

hellothere · 30 Jan 2022, 03:52

jsheradin wrote: ↑
29 Jan 2022, 20:50
My bet's still on dodgy controller connections. You can try the lazy wick technique on it maybe:

Spoiler:
blinky_smt_wick_02.jpg
Basically add a caterpillar of solder across all the legs and make sure it's well tinned. Then use some solder wick to remove the excess.

Also might be worth checking the diodes for the switches. The solder joints in general look pretty sad on that board.

Got another pic? I'm a little confused on the instruction. Also remember that the controller is a microcontroller. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was the same chip used in a Teensy. I posted a big pic earlier in the thread.

While I'm definitely not a fan of the appx. 3mm long diodes, I was able to test them for continuity and that's OK. I briefly Googled and I saw some info on how to test a diode using the "diode test mode" on a multimeter. I'll look into it.

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

Polecat · 30 Jan 2022, 04:02

hellothere wrote: ↑
30 Jan 2022, 03:52

jsheradin wrote: ↑
29 Jan 2022, 20:50
My bet's still on dodgy controller connections. You can try the lazy wick technique on it maybe:

Spoiler:
blinky_smt_wick_02.jpg
Basically add a caterpillar of solder across all the legs and make sure it's well tinned. Then use some solder wick to remove the excess.

Also might be worth checking the diodes for the switches. The solder joints in general look pretty sad on that board.
Got another pic? I'm a little confused on the instruction. Also remember that the controller is a microcontroller. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was the same chip used in a Teensy. I posted a big pic earlier in the thread.

While I'm definitely not a fan of the appx. 3mm long diodes, I was able to test them for continuity and that's OK. I briefly Googled and I saw some info on how to test a diode using the "diode test mode" on a multimeter. I'll look into it.

Again, thanks for the suggestions.

Just my opinion, but a problem with or at the microcontroller will usually take out a whole row or column. To me it's more likely the switches or the connections or traces on the PC board. Test the switches that aren't working with a multimeter right at the solder connections. If good follow the traces, testing along the way until you find a break. If bad replace the switches.

Muirium · 30 Jan 2022, 09:51

Seconded.

ifohancroft · 30 Jan 2022, 20:46

I'm not sure if it's worth it at this point or if it's not too late but I was going to suggest booting a live Linux distro and running 'dmesg' in the terminal. The idea is that you run 'dmesg' or 'dmesg -W' to be exact, then plug the keyboard and see if it shows anything.

I had a KBParadise V60 with Quiet Click Matias, but I had problems getting the computer to recognize it. Despite not having paid for it (I got it as part of a gift from (Mass)Drop) I contacted KBParadise and they let me RMA it. After taking too long to get to it, they decided to just send me a new one (Still KBParadise V60 with Matias Quiet Click but the Type-R model that runs TMK (Score!)) and it works perfectly.

Any chance you bought my old RMA'd board? (Sorry if that's the case).

They told me that there's a chance it's a bad solder joint on the USB port. Have you tested it?

hellothere · 31 Jan 2022, 23:26

> To me it's more likely the switches or the connections or traces on the PC board.
It's not the switches. Say that the letter Q isn't registering. I swap the switch for the one for the letter M, because I know my letter M switch works. Q still doesn't work. (Mind you, it might be a more interesting James Bond film if you did switch M with Q.)

> Just my opinion, but a problem with or at the microcontroller will usually take out a whole row or column.
The longest contiguous line of "dead" switches is on the number row and on the row with the spacebar. Each have three bad. The other "dead" ones are scattered.

> Any chance you bought my old RMA'd board?
Nope. It was just from a random ebay'er. Unless the ebayer bought it from KBParadise ...

> I'm not sure if it's worth it at this point or if it's not too late
I'll again thank everyone that gave me any suggestions and I may continue trying to troubleshoot -- after I finish all my other projects. The keyboard was all of $40 and it's definitely not worth more time. I am really giving some serious thought to manually wiring this thing. It's a skill I'd like to have.

jsheradin · 31 Jan 2022, 23:40

hellothere wrote: ↑
31 Jan 2022, 23:26
I am really giving some serious thought to manually wiring this thing. It's a skill I'd like to have.

Hand wiring is a ton of fun but not so much in a super cramped case. I bet you an Alps64 PCB would fit.

Polecat · 01 Feb 2022, 05:05

hellothere wrote: ↑
31 Jan 2022, 23:26
> To me it's more likely the switches or the connections or traces on the PC board.
It's not the switches. Say that the letter Q isn't registering. I swap the switch for the one for the letter M, because I know my letter M switch works. Q still doesn't work. (Mind you, it might be a more interesting James Bond film if you did switch M with Q.)

Once you're done watching the modified Bond film, try following the traces from one of the switches that doesn't work back to the controller with an ohmmeter. I bet you'll find a break somewhere along the way. The ohmmeter is your friend, trust me on this!