My keyboard search is over.

[Findecanor]

Sunday night dye job. Modifiers are now Black:

Nice! That looks great. May I ask what dye you used?
I have previously tried dyeing Cherry PBT keys with liquid "RIT"-brand dye, but the keys got only brown.

[Trev]

It was RIT black and took a ridiculously long time. I would not recommend it. 3 hours at 70C + an additional soak at 80-85C for 35 minutes.

If your wife/partner already struggles to understand your "hobby", simmering keys on the stove for a Sunday evening may not help

[Limmy]

Congrats on finding your keyboard.

I would keep your HHKB away from the non-slip pad. Here is what happened to my black HHKB after some time on the pad.

DSC_2207.jpg (71.51 KiB) Viewed 8806 times

source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3590725

I think the pad reacted with black paint on my HHKB, so I don't know if it would damage your white HHKB. However, it is better safe than sorry right?

[Trev]

Congrats on finding your keyboard.

I would keep your HHKB away from the non-slip pad. Here is what happened to my black HHKB after some time on the pad.
source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3590725

I think the pad reacted with black paint on my HHKB, so I don't know if it would damage your white HHKB. However, it is better safe than sorry right?

Thank you for the heads up, Limmy.

I'll keep checking mine every few days. So far there's no evidence of anything changing with the white case. Hopefully it's ok.

[mj45]

Congrats on finding your keyboard.

I would keep your HHKB away from the non-slip pad. Here is what happened to my black HHKB after some time on the pad.

The attachment DSC_2207.jpg is no longer available

source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3590725

I think the pad reacted with black paint on my HHKB, so I don't know if it would damage your white HHKB. However, it is better safe than sorry right?

I have found 3M self stick rubber pads work quite well and have excellent grip. I got them at Michaels (arts & crafts store) for under $5.00 USD.

[Trev]

Congrats on finding your keyboard.

I would keep your HHKB away from the non-slip pad. Here is what happened to my black HHKB after some time on the pad.

DSC_2207.jpg

source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3590725

I think the pad reacted with black paint on my HHKB, so I don't know if it would damage your white HHKB. However, it is better safe than sorry right?

I have found 3M self stick rubber pads work quite well and have excellent grip. I got them at Michaels (arts & crafts store) for under $5.00 USD.

The Realforce models have great rubber feet on the front. You'd think PFU would be able to do something similar for $400

[Limmy]

I have found 3M self stick rubber pads work quite well and have excellent grip. I got them at Michaels (arts & crafts store) for under $5.00 USD.

Thanks for sharing the tip. I too prefer 3M adhesives to any other brand.

However, the reason I used the non-slip pad was mainly to provide soft surface so that it sounded better when I typed. It is kind of weird to mention acoustic characteristic in a keyboard, but it was the main reason of my decision. It felt slightly easier on my fingers too because the pad is much more softer than any other bumpon in the market.

Anyways, now I use piece of rubber sheet (neoprene) and double sided tape from 3M. It is soft, grips well. I am pretty content with my solution.

[kbdfr]

Congrats on finding your keyboard.

I would keep your HHKB away from the non-slip pad. Here is what happened to my black HHKB after some time on the pad.
source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3590725

I think the pad reacted with black paint on my HHKB, so I don't know if it would damage your white HHKB. However, it is better safe than sorry right?

Thank you for the heads up, Limmy.

I'll keep checking mine every few days. So far there's no evidence of anything changing with the white case. Hopefully it's ok.

I had exactly the same issue with a vintage beige Cherry computer, and there was no way whatsoever (isopropyl alcohol of course, but also several kinds of cleaning products) to remove that pattern from the shell. It's still there

As it appears only gradually, chances are that you won't even notice it until it is too late. Unless perhaps if every now and then you check your board against another one, thus lowering your perception threshold.

[Trev]

Congrats on finding your keyboard.

I would keep your HHKB away from the non-slip pad. Here is what happened to my black HHKB after some time on the pad.
source: http://www.kbdmania.net/xe/3590725

I think the pad reacted with black paint on my HHKB, so I don't know if it would damage your white HHKB. However, it is better safe than sorry right?

Thank you for the heads up, Limmy.

I'll keep checking mine every few days. So far there's no evidence of anything changing with the white case. Hopefully it's ok.

I had exactly the same issue with a vintage beige Cherry computer, and there was no way whatsoever (isopropyl alcohol of course, but also several kinds of cleaning products) to remove that pattern from the shell. It's still there

As it appears only gradually, chances are that you won't even notice it until it is too late. Unless perhaps if every now and then you check your board against another one, thus lowering your perception threshold.

I've ordered varying shapes of rubber pads off Ebay to see what works best.

[cookie]

Hey there,
First of all I like the keyboard, the small form factor and how it sounds (Watched a few reviews on YT)
I am really curious about Topre switches and I am really happy with my Cherry and Alps keyboards (Black alps suck tbh).

So there is no need to switch to Topre but you guys know how it is, you wan't to try them once

I went from a fullsize board to a TKL and really never looked back and I am now looking to try a 75% Keyboard like the Noppoo Choc but those HHKB are really provoking me.

I am a little concerned about the layout, the missing arrow keys, missing "F" keys and the missing navigation block over the arrow keys (home, insert, del...) I am using them quite frequently and cannot imagine to work without this. I am a professional JAVA developer and most time I develop stuff within Eclipse.

The other problem is that I never used an ANSI kind of layout, I used ISO all my life.

Would you recommend the HHKB for a typist like me or is an Realforce TKL the better way to go?

Thanks for you answers

Cheers!


Edit: Cool Dye Job but I'd dye those modifyer caps dark grey or something like this, the contrast is way to harsh and the lettering is gone. But really nice Keyboard

[ne0phyte]

I am working with Eclipse JDT 8h/day as well and after a few weeks the arrows and navigation cluster felt really naturally to me. I don't have to think about the keyboard anymore, I built the muscle memory and use the arrow keys just like on a normal (tenkeyless) keyboard.

If you never used ANSI before the switch will be a lot harder - especially since we need all the (){}[];,."'/\| and so on and all of them are on different keys compared to the German ISO layout.

The F-keys are really a little bit of a problem, I changed some eclipse shortcuts (like stepping in debugging) to use alt+1-9 because it's faster. On windows however you can use autohotkey to create shortcuts that replace the F-key shortcuts. I use Shift+Win+c instead of Alt-F4 for example. (I have my HHKB configured to have the win key on the big key left to the spacebar).

Are you a touch typer? If not you will be hunting for the number keys to press the F-keys a lot and you should probably learn to touch type first.

In general I would say there is no real advantage. If you are happy and efficient with what you have you don't have any reason to switch except for being curious what Topre feels like. (But that switch will take a lot of time if you never used ANSI + the HHKB specific layout changes and the FN layer)

[Trev]

...

Edit: Cool Dye Job but I'd dye those modifyer caps dark grey or something like this, the contrast is way to harsh and the lettering is gone. But really nice Keyboard

Yep. I was aiming to black them out completely with no legends. I'm also interested in swapping my white case for black, if I can find someone who's interested.

I agree that moving to the HHKB layout and ANSI is a bit much. It's too many changes at once and could end up quite frustrating during the adjustment period. A Realforce TKL in ISO seems more suitable for your Topre test drive.

[Muirium]

Being on the Mac, I've little use indeed for function keys. Alt+F4 is the big one on Windows, right? Command+W (close current window) or Command+Q (close current app) for me. The whole top row of the keyboard is more or less superfluous the way I work, which is why I'm all for getting rid of it behind a modifier key.

There's an OS X driver for the HHKB to provide eject, brightness, launch pad and iTunes controls – the default mappings for function keys on Macs for donkeys years now. I think I'll go without though, first, as I don't often touch those guys as it is.

[Muirium]

Regards ANSI vs. ISO: there's very little difference between them on English language keyboards. People here frequently buy American laptops while on their holidays there (my old man did just this winter) and seem quite fine with the rectangular return key and the handful of other jiggled keys. There's actually a bigger difference between UK ISO Apple keyboards and UK ISO Windows ones. Apple insists on putting double quote on the quote key (between ; and \ where it belongs) instead of on Shift+2 like everyone else here. That alone trips up more people, I've found. (I've a 1990 Apple UK keyboard that isn't ISO at all, but a barely modified US ANSI. Such is their way.)

But on QWERTZ… well, there's remapping to be done, I must imagine.

[Findecanor]

If you never used ANSI before the switch will be a lot harder - especially since we need all the (){}[];,."'/\| and so on and all of them are on different keys compared to the German ISO layout.

There should be a DIP switch with which you can swap the Alt and Meta keys. Then the Alt Gr symbol will be on the same key position as on a Windows keyboard. However, the < > key is missing on the HHKB because it has a large left Shift.

[cookie]

I am an touch typist, so this is not a Problem and I really like the look of the HHKB but I think the F keys could be problematic for me because I use them for debugging really often.

Thank you for the replys for now I will aim to get my Hands Realforce TKL with ISO layout.

[Trev]

Another option: the Leopold FC660C
http://leopold.co.kr/?doc=cart/item.php ... 1365736667

[matt3o]

I've got that one Trev. I'll have it in a month or so.

[Muirium]

I've got that one Trev. I'll have it in a month or so.

Keen to hear about your findings. Where did you order?

[matt3o]

on leopold.co.kr through a proxy (actually 2 proxies )

I'll post a full report when I get it.

[002]

Why 2 proxies? Is it stopping over for a test somewhere first?

[matt3o]

a friend is taking some for himself through a proxy in KR.

[cookie]

Topre Switches on a Leopold? Never seen this before
I like the Layout!

[Jim66]

I've got that one Trev. I'll have it in a month or so.

Interesting, how much did you end up paying? Was it significantly less than a HHKB?

[matt3o]

I've got that one Trev. I'll have it in a month or so.

Interesting, how much did you end up paying? Was it significantly less than a HHKB?

the keyboard itself costs approx $165. I don't know yet how much I'm going to pay in proxies. But at the end it won't be cheap. I guess around $200/220.

[Jim66]

Cool thanks. I wouldn't be surprised if elitekeyboards started stocking them before long.

[Trev]

If I purchase any additional keyboards, they would only be for projects or experiments. I don't feel I can do any better than the HHKB for getting actual work done.

Time to update my "search is over, found the perfect keyboard" thread.
Perhaps I spoke too soon. I suppose some of you saw that coming?

I had recently loaned my Realforce 87U silent to a friend. He'd returned the RF, but I didn't do much testing or detailed comparison between it and the HHKB. I was too enamoured with having Topre switches in my favourite 60% form factor. I figured Topre is Topre, how different could they be? Unfortunately... quite different. These are entirely different beasts when you dig in to do proper side-by-side comparisons with real projects and work.

So, what do I think the RF does better?
- It's much quieter for typing due to the plate mounted switches and solid RF build. I like stealthy keyboards. The subtle thocking is more than sufficient.
- My typing is consistently faster (10-12wpm or so) on the RF. I can't entirely explain this. There's also improvements in typing SASS/CSS/JS/etc, which is what matters the most for me. I've never liked the variable weighting, but it also seems to work in my favour, most likely in tandem with the plate-mounting.
- Build quality. This is a big one. The RF feels like good value. I knew what I was getting in to with the HHKB being light and plastic-y, but it really does sound/feel cheap (hollow?) next to the silent RF. The HHKB acoustics could likely be improved by insulating some of that empty space inside the case.
- The black RF with dark slate grey keys looks completely badass.

I've now spent this week using the Realforce exclusively. It simply feels "better" to type on. The RF silent vs Type-S typing experience is quite different when you use both day-to-day.

The RF is far from perfect
- It's still way too big (takes up precious Photoshop-mousing territory, which I prefer to keep close to the keyboard)
- Has superfluous keys. What exactly is "pause/break" for? It doesn't work as expected, even in a terminal. I remap these 3 for volume control and mute.
- Ridiculous Windows bubble keys. Whoever thought this was a clever idea should be force-fed a generous quantity of bubble keys.

The HHKB is on Ebay. Perhaps I'll panic and cancel the auction before someone bids? We'll see. I can't see myself returning to HHKB-land, as alluring as it may be. A new HHKB would need to match the RF typing experience.

I rushed through this little forum update. Apologies if it sounds a bit scattered. I wanted to share my findings.

OO2 made an interesting suggestion:
If someone was adventurous enough, they could transplant the RF 87U internals and keys to the new Leopold.

[Muirium]

Oh Trev, you just couldn't help opening back up Pandora's box! (When will people ever remember to leave her well alone?)

[matt3o]

the Leopold 660 has been just shipped to me... hopefully it will be the definitive keyboard... even though --you know-- there's no such thing

[Jmneuv]

I've seen some pics of differences between the sliders and housings (beyond the foam rings) of normal and silenced RFs which did seem to go towards reducing wobble, rattle, etc.
Did you notice any of that, Trev?