Group Build prototyping phase

[Muirium]

Here you go:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... t6102.html

That thread is simply 2013's version of this one. Started by Matteo again, and full of everyone's ideas, evolving over time. It does cover the entire process though, and then some!

[Broadmonkey]

tried searching, but there's a whole lot of posts that show it, but i haven't found its 'home' thread.

I had never noticed it had been posted in any other threads

[SL89]

Thank you Muirium.

Broadmonkey, it was like when you walk around a museum and keep seeing the same person again and again in different exhibits taking a completely different route.

[Req]

I didn't think about the teensy location. The split spacebar design I linked last solved the location of the splits allowing for both thumbs to rest naturally on independent buttons. Also the latest design accommodates a full 6.25 spacebar more or less natively (remove two switches).

You said you guys wanted something unique that is not just another 60%. I think a design leaning in my direction allows for modularity of the space bar (from 1 key to 5 keys) and an additional column on either side of the keyboard for buttons you just can't live without on a 60%.

[matt3o]

just to give you some numbers.

the minimum room needed to fit switches and PCB is 8.5mm. So if you can use SMD that is possibly the smallest inner box space needed.

To fit a teensy you need additional 5.5mm to fit the teensy-PCB and USB port. So we are already up to 13.5mm. If the teensy needs to be elevated (and not attached to the keyboard PCB) we need 2.5 additional mm, and we are at 16mm.

[Req]

Could we use the right column (remove the three keys between delete and program?

Like this.

[Muirium]

The Teensy can squeeze into a 2x1 unit rectangle, in fact:

http://deskthority.net/post160861.html#p160861

[Req]

The Teensy can squeeze into a 2x1 unit rectangle, in fact:

http://deskthority.net/post160861.html#p160861

Less space we need to give up then. So something like I just uploaded could be possible it seems with even less real estate taken up.

[SL89]

The Teensy can squeeze into a 2x1 unit rectangle, in fact:

http://deskthority.net/post160861.html#p160861

Less space we need to give up then. So something like I just uploaded could be possible it seems with even less real estate taken up.

Would 2x1 for the Teensy be able to fit somewhere under a standard 6.25 space?
I'd be really keen on keeping the extra mods on both sizes like your original.

[matt3o]

6u spacebar is enough to fit the teensy.

[Muirium]

Could we use the right column (remove the three keys between delete and program?

The standard mounts for 6.25 space bars are "One center mount and 2 extra mounts 50mm left and right of the center." Is that compatible with your switches for stabs system?

I have thought of using MX reds as stabs, too. You definitely want something light and linear. But even so, two reds just by themselves would make a fairly heavy space bar, without the active central switch!

Also, stabs work a little differently to switches. Those connecting wires they have right from one end to the other exist for stability reasons. Switches won't stabilise quite as well. You might want to try the feel of POS caps on a Tipro to verify this yourself.

[matt3o]

the stems position of a 6.25 spacebar don't fit Req's design I'm afraid (I'll double check). Apart from that a key with 3 switches becomes pretty hard to press. I tried 1 MX blue + 1MX red and it was already hard as hell (but admittedly not on the spacebar, the thumbs are probably stronger so a little more force can be used)

[Findecanor]

To fit a teensy you need additional 5.5mm to fit the teensy-PCB and USB port.

You would also need to add space for the header pins. The switch's pins can't touch the Teensy and you must solder the header pins first to be able to install the Teensy after the plate-mounted switches.
Then, there is the thickness of the mini-USB plug's casing and something to cover the Teensy with to protect it from shorting. In total that would be around 10 mm below the PCB.

On the Phantom, you can install the Teensy almost flush to the PCB, but that is because the rows of switches are on the sides of the Teensy, not overlapping the controller.

The Teensy can squeeze into a 2x1 unit rectangle, in fact:

You would also need space for the USB plug, even if you strip the rubber casing off it.
That is... unless you desolder the USB socket from the Teensy and solder D+ and D- leads from the PCB to it. (there are pins for V+ and GND).

How about instead of using a Teensy, use bpiphany's mini microcontroller breakout board? No USB port, higher pin density, half the width but slightly less capable AVR and it would need to be assembled with SMD components... but then you could almost just as well put the µC directly on the main PCB....

[Req]

Also, stabs work a little differently to switches. Those connecting wires they have right from one end to the other exist for stability reasons. Switches won't stabilise quite as well. You might want to try the feel of POS caps on a Tipro to verify this yourself.

The measurements are correct, I mocked up a K60 I have with cherry stabs and surprisingly it seemed like actually switches would be more stable as there is no stab bar on the cherry flavor of stabs. Im sure one could get a 20g or 30g spring to make reds even lighter.

I may be missing something here but I think that 3 switches (two gutted two resprung and one center of your favorite flavor) could work. What stabilizes the cherry stab if it does not have a torsion bar? (Edit:I just noticed its under the plate :/)

I have never used that keyboard you refer to however I am sure it is junk as you said. Obviously I would like to avoid that.

the stems position of a 6.25 spacebar don't fit Req's design I'm afraid (I'll double check). Apart from that a key with 3 switches becomes pretty hard to press. I tried 1 MX blue + 1MX red and it was already hard as hell (but admittedly not on the spacebar, the thumbs are probably stronger so a little more force can be used)

About the spacing. From what I gather the outside stem holes are .5 out from the outermost edges of the spacebare thus a 1.0 key there would put the stem in the correct location. The center stem is centered so as long as a 1.0,1.5,1.25,1.5,1.0 in that configuration the 1.0s will act as stabilizers after they are lightened and the 1.25 key in the middle is the center post for the space bar.

Maybe im off on this but this is the way the math works in my head.

[Broadmonkey]

How about instead of using a Teensy, use bpiphany's mini microcontroller breakout board? No USB port, higher pin density, half the width but slightly less capable AVR and it would need to be assembled with SMD components... but then you could almost just as well put the µC directly on the main PCB....

Mind that uses a 32U2 and not a 32U4.

[matt3o]

To fit a teensy you need additional 5.5mm to fit the teensy-PCB and USB port.

You would also need to add space for the header pins. The switch's pins can't touch the Teensy and you must solder the header pins first to be able to install the Teensy after the plate-mounted switches.

I thought it was clear, let's see if a schema makes it clearer

Code: Select all

0    ------------ top
1.5  ------------ plate bottom

8.3  ------------ switch bottom
13.8 ------------ flush teensy
16.3 ------------ teensy with header

The insulation thickness is a fraction of a mm, not worth mentioning.

@Req, I'll double check the stems position later.

[matt3o]

okay I checked. from this pic you can see stab position and key position. don't mind the the vertical shift of the costar stabilizer, just look at the horizontal position. The difference is minimal, but there's a small difference. I don't know if it's within margin though

req.png (3.46 KiB) Viewed 4602 times

[SL89]

I made this based on Req's design.



Same sort of idea, but keep the 6.25 space, put the teensy under it and use 2 Cherry MX Switches instead of 1 in the middle with 2 stabilizers. Idk if this is even possible, but its a thought.

[Muirium]

Unfortunately, that would wobble really badly when pressed anywhere but exactly in the middle. I have experimented!

Try pressing a normal space bar down at the left edge, and you'll see how it tries to go down evenly at the right. That's stabs in action. Without them, there is no balance, and you have a lever instead!

[matt3o]

guys, it is possible to fit the teensy anyway, even if you have all 1u keys, just you need more space vertically. Considering that a standard keyboard is about 2cm height, I don't think that would be a problem. Simply we can't flush it to the desktop

[SL89]

Unfortunately, that would wobble really badly when pressed anywhere but exactly in the middle. I have experimented!

What about if they were abutting the teensy on either side?

[Muirium]

guys, it is possible to fit the teensy anyway, even if you have all 1u keys, just you need more space vertically. Considering that a standard keyboard is about 2cm height, I don't think that would be a problem. Simply we can't flush it to the desktop

Yes, and the best place for more height is at the back of the keyboard: at row 1.

Unfortunately, that would wobble really badly when pressed anywhere but exactly in the middle. I have experimented!

What about if they were abutting the teensy on either side?

I don't quite get what you mean. The switches don't wobble, the cap does, because it has too many degrees of freedom without wired stabs.

[SL89]

I don't quite get what you mean. The switches don't wobble, the cap does, because it has too many degrees of freedom without wired stabs.

Ahh I see, if the teensy placement doesnt matter then I'd put it in Row 1 and use a regular Space or Req's chopped space.

[Req]

I wonder if the board could be made to accommodate both stabs and switches in my location. The center switch would remain the same regardless but the plate could have something that accommodates both. Im sorry to be pushing the multi spacebar but I think its something that the market needs.

[matt3o]

I wonder if the board could be made to accommodate both stabs and switches in my location. The center switch would remain the same regardless but the plate could have something that accommodates both. Im sorry to be pushing the multi spacebar but I think its something that the market needs.

maybe with PCB mounted cherry stabs, I don't know, I'd have to make some sketches.

[Req]

I could really use a favor from one of you Cad wizards. I live next door to a machine shop and I just walked over to see how much a plate would cost to get manufactured. The gentleman was very nice and after looking at a photo of a Phantom Plate said he could definitely cut it. The issue is that I need a DXF file before I can get a quote.

Could one of you with the file post it up for me? Better yet even, the plate that I would like to have made has a 4 wide by 5 high grid on either side of the 60% and a F-row on top that would be serrated (for cutting off the sections you don't want to make whatever keyboard you like, the smallest being a poker layout minus the number row.

The plan was to make a dozen or so as his pricing scales.

P.S. What thickness Aluminum is the best for keyboards?

[bearcat]

where do you laser-cut your plates? I know ponoko accepts SVG but most of the services I use don't.

The hackerspace nearby takes them natively; e-mail them the file, walk in later that afternoon, done. They even offer inkscape training.

It's also a nice format for the top of a super-simple cam pipeline: http://www.makercam.com

And it's really scripting friendly... I could probably make it write to a upverter or circuits.io PCB layout without too much more trouble.

[Broadmonkey]

P.S. What thickness Aluminum is the best for keyboards?

Plates for MX switches should always be 1,5mm

[sean4star]

You could remove the mini usb connection from the Teensy board and solder the USB wires directly to the PCB. Saves a bunch of space if things are tight.

[matt3o]

You could remove the mini usb connection from the Teensy board and solder the USB wires directly to the PCB. Saves a bunch of space if things are tight.

I tried that once, but I guess my desoldering skill is not good enough, I basically destroyed most of the traces. Maybe with hot air, I don't know.