How do you deal with not having Alt+Numpad?

[Mal-2]

[…] I guess it's time to look into that Tipro with the extra rows, since that would seem to be the answer.

For those of you who want to investigate and play with this layout:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... c4bc483e23

What would drive me crazy (at least at first, unless it can reprogram around it): […]

Note that on Tipro keyboards

• not only the upper rows, but every single key is programmable, even the spacebar if you like;
• you can program not only text, but also modifiers or chains of keypresses or e.g. Unicode codes on any key;
• there are 4 programming layers, each accessible on a permanent or single keypress basis;
• you can of course use any Cherry MX compatible keycap.

I was looking for this, but how exactly is it programmed? Is it through an app that sends the configuration to the keyboard (meaning it's pretty simple to have more than one and send them as needed, but then you're stuck with it on any other machine until you get home)? If so, what OSes can run the app?

What exactly are the "programming layers"? Base, Fn, Shift+Fn, and Ctrl+Fn?

Why does it seem that the ISO layout has the usual 1/4 U stagger between the QWER row and the ASDF row, while the U.S. layout seems to have a 1/2 U stagger there?

Are there wide third-party keys that can accommodate a 1.5U spacing between switches? This appears to have an oddly shaped 2.5U left shift, or a 1.5U left shift and an unmarked 1U key next to it. Either way I would want to replace it with a normally contoured key.

I suppose 1.5U keys without stabilizers are sufficiently stable, but the 2U keys would be double-switched as best I can tell. Are those commonly available?

For the keys with two switches under them, I suppose the trick would be programming one switch to act and the other to be ignored.

[kbdfr]

Note that on Tipro keyboards

• not only the upper rows, but every single key is programmable, even the spacebar if you like;
• you can program not only text, but also modifiers or chains of keypresses or e.g. Unicode codes on any key;
• there are 4 programming layers, each accessible on a permanent or single keypress basis;
• you can of course use any Cherry MX compatible keycap.

I was looking for this, but how exactly is it programmed? Is it through an app that sends the configuration to the keyboard (meaning it's pretty simple to have more than one and send them as needed, but then you're stuck with it on any other machine until you get home)? If so, what OSes can run the app?

Exactly as you describe it, and only Windows.
You can give it a try without having a Tipro keyboard (even if it will first try to detect one):
http://www.tipro.net/ecatalogue/free-software-drivers/

What exactly are the "programming layers"? Base, Fn, Shift+Fn, and Ctrl+Fn?

The layers are L1 thru L4, defined by yourself. You can program 4 keys to access each of them, I chose to program just one key toggling from L1 to L4 on a permanent basis and another one accessing L1 on a keypress basis.

Why does it seem that the ISO layout has the usual 1/4 U stagger between the QWER row and the ASDF row, while the U.S. layout seems to have a 1/2 U stagger there?

The difference is not between ISO and ANSI, but between two different models: the MID series (the one you can see on my pic) and the KMX series (which is the one you describe). While the MID range has the "classic" stagger (with one exception, see link below), the KMX range has 1/2u stagger. They both originally come with an ANSI Enter key, mine has just a modified (ISO) keycap.

Are there wide third-party keys that can accommodate a 1.5U spacing between switches? This appears to have an oddly shaped 2.5U left shift, or a 1.5U left shift and an unmarked 1U key next to it. Either way I would want to replace it with a normally contoured key.
I suppose 1.5U keys without stabilizers are sufficiently stable, but the 2U keys would be double-switched as best I can tell. Are those commonly available?

Best source for information about "unusual" caps is 7bit.

For the keys with two switches under them, I suppose the trick would be programming one switch to act and the other to be ignored.

Right, but having to switches you will need twice the actuation force. It is a good idea to just remove the spring from the "inactive" switch, which then acts as a (reliable) stabilizer. This is actually done ex factory for the Enter key.

The link below shows the MID series layout. You will note that there is no key wider than 2.0u, which leads to a silly 1.25 key left of the Enter key (modded by CeeSA on my keyboard). The 2.0u key sits on two switches (one of them springless, acting as a stabilizer), all others (including CapsLock) have centered stems.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... 90add2cfce

[chzel]

Just a small but very important note...that makes me mad...
The software works only on 32bit Windows.

[davkol]

Perhaps convert to a reasonable operating system?

We have xkb, Ctrl-Shift-U and cookies.

[Mal-2]

Just a small but very important note...that makes me mad...
The software works only on 32bit Windows.

Right, scratch that option then. All 64-bit around here except the Aspire One. Thanks for the warning.

[kbdfr]

Tipro keyboards with PS/2 controllers 32bit, with USB controllers 64bit.

[chzel]

Yeah, my bad! I was thinking of MID only!
Kbdfr is the Tiproman!
By all means trust him over me!

[Mal-2]

Perhaps convert to a reasonable operating system?

We have xkb, Ctrl-Shift-U and cookies.

Sure. As soon as Cubase and my DRM'ed (and expensively purchased) virtual instruments run on it (ruling out everything but Windows and OS X), and it runs on the hardware I already have (mostly ruling out OS X).

Some of us use software that is very much tied to a single operating system, and have no alternatives. These virtual instruments truly sound better, which is why I paid for them and use them.

Tipro keyboards with PS/2 controllers 32bit, with USB controllers 64bit.

Yeah, my bad! I was thinking of MID only!
Kbdfr is the Tiproman!
By all means trust him over me!

I would be using it over a PS/2 port for NKRO reasons, which still means I can't use the x64 software without switching it to USB every time I want to change the macro assignments or anything else.

[vometia]

Compose is a good alternative:

Yeah, that's definitely what I miss most from my days spent hacking on a VT320. Even as a dyed-in-the-wool vi user, I don't really miss the restricted 80x24 screen, but I wish I had my compose key back. I've occasionally tried to emulate it on Windows, but it never ends well. :/

[Muirium]

Is Compose like Option on the Mac? A mod that, when used alone, makes dead keys which select modes for subsequent key presses: press Option + U for ümläüts, Option + E for áćúté accents, etc. Or something completely different?

[vometia]

Is Compose like Option on the Mac? A mod that, when used alone, makes dead keys which select modes for subsequent key presses: press Option + U for ümläüts, Option + E for áćúté accents, etc. Or something completely different?

It sounds kinda similar in principle, I think. It temporarily puts the keyboard into dead-key mode just for the following letter and then turns it off again: normally I hate dead-keys and find them annoying, but it is useful for those of us who can never remember the alternative means of obtaining accents and so on. Nowadays I tend to just leave them out or use the spell-checker... :/

[Muirium]

It's a good main way, if you ask me. I can memorise a few dead keys for gràve rôles. (Ugh, I feel punned.) And when in doubt, I just hold down the letter and take a gander:



Using spellcheck for finesse is a good one. I can never remember where the bloody diacriticals go on some phrases like bête noire, for an appropriate example. So then it's this:

Screen Shot 2015-01-16 at 12.17.01 am.png (85.41 KiB) Viewed 6813 times

I love my tools. Now I can type letters I don't even know how to write right! Which is way more often with me than you'd think. In any language…

[Mal-2]

I have discovered another problem that I'm sure is related (or really the same problem), it just took me a while because I don't use them very much.

Win-key shortcuts that involve the cursor pad no longer work, because the Win key and the cursor pad are no longer on the same controller.

No Win+Pause (System Properties). This one is not a big loss.
No Win+Arrow to maximize or half-maximize windows. (The latter is what made me notice.)
No Win+Shift+Up Arrow to maximize on the vertical axis only.
No Win+Shift+Left/Right to fling apps from one monitor to the other.
No Win+Home to minimize all but the active window.

In retrospect, I'm not surprised by this, and it's not as problematic as losing Alt+#### character composition, but again how do people work around it? I've downloaded a program called Sizer to allow me to give windows any specific size I want, but I still have to manually drag them to the position I want.

[Muirium]

but again how do people work around it?

In my case: by not using Windows! But TKLs are popular enough that there must be plenty of people out there who could give you a more relevant answer.

Oddly enough, I thought Windows was the one OS that merges all connected keyboards together into one logical layout. That's because some years ago some keyboard manufacturers used to make hacky "NKRO" USB keyboards by splitting the keyboard into several zones, each one reported to the host as a separate USB peripheral, joined together by a hub. This worked okay on Windows but nowhere else. You'd get crazy stuff like Shift not working with certain keys! Windows was merging all the supposedly separate keyboards back together. Mac and Linux did not, as they treat them independently.

[Mal-2]

but again how do people work around it?

In my case: by not using Windows! But TKLs are popular enough that there must be plenty of people out there who could give you a more relevant answer.

Oddly enough, I thought Windows was the one OS that merges all connected keyboards together into one logical layout. That's because some years ago some keyboard manufacturers used to make hacky "NKRO" USB keyboards by splitting the keyboard into several zones, each one reported to the host as a separate USB peripheral, joined together by a hub. This worked okay on Windows but nowhere else. You'd get crazy stuff like Shift not working with certain keys! Windows was merging all the supposedly separate keyboards back together. Mac and Linux did not, as they treat them independently.

This is because Shift, Ctrl, and (usually) Alt are reported to the OS directly, not interpreted by the keyboard as modifiers. The Windows key is apparently a hybrid (taps are reported, holds aren't reported until the combination is completed), as is Alt when it comes to the Alt+Numpad combinations.

At least that's my understanding of the situation. Then again the main keyboard is PS/2 and the cursor/numpad section is USB. That might interfere with the integration you speak of.

It looks like my only solution is to hack the keypad half yet again and give it a dedicated Win key. At least now I know that if I build a keypad-only solution, this is something I will need to include.

I'm also highly considering getting a gaming mouse with twelve thumb buttons, and using those in place of the cursor keys (and the two rows above) as much as possible. I'd still need the split-board for some things, but it would save me a fair bit of hand-shifting the rest of the time.

Here's how I have things set up right now. The red button is Alt, hacked in to deal with the character composition problem.



Hopefully I can figure out exactly what I want to do before I completely wear out the rubber dome HP keyboard. You can see how shiny most of the keys are, and the legends are noticeably degraded on A, O, and E, particularly E (it almost looks like F). I guess the white plastic is softer than the black, because I can see and even feel a slight indentation where the lettering is worn away.

[Mal-2]

I decided to hack off the excess frame from the separate keyboard, so I could place it clover to the main one (on a book behind the main). Unfortunately, I cut right through the membrane with my plastic-cutting soldering tip (I have a good one for soldering and a trashed one for cutting plastic). Whoops.

Then I got the bright idea that if I've already butchered something today, why not attack the main keyboard? I'm committed to TKL at least, it really helps. Fortunately, this operation went considerably more successfully, despite being a lot more complicated. The circuit board connects to the membrane in the portion that got removed, for example. In order to hook it back up, I had to cut the sheet metal that backs the membrane and do a fair bit of improvisation in affixing the board to the membrane.

The good? It works, and suits the objective. I didn't have to buy anything.

The bad? It's still a rubber dome keyboard, and I can't see the status LEDs (they're still there but they're tucked inside the shell).

The ugly? It. I closed up the massive hole in the side with about two and a half sticks of hot glue, and it's still ragged as hell. I will probably need another two or three sticks to fill it out before I can paint over it. I put paper between the two halves so that it can still be disassembled normally – it's not glued shut.

I also got tired of knocking my lamp over all the time with the slightest bump, so I attached a bar to the keyboard to clamp the lamp to (it's designed for a music stand). Here's the result:



I may be buying a Razer Black Widow Tournament, since it just so happens that one of the big eBay suppliers of them is within a couple miles of me (meaning I don't actually have to deal with eBay).

I dealt with the loss of the ability to compose using Alt+#### by setting up the following layout:

[image deleted]

I figure if it's not mapped to a key, I probably don't use it enough to remember the Alt+code anyhow. Ignoring the right Alt (which has been reassigned to AltGr), it's a standard ANSI Dvorak layout. There are nine "dead keys", four of which also act as dead keys in the Shift+AltGr state. These produce accented characters in the usual manner. Although I don't need anywhere near all of these, I figured if I'm going to set up a dead key, it work on as many letters as possible. So, if it's in UTF-16 (and I didn't miss it), and it has an appropriate dead key, it's in here. This includes letters with dots, lines, and rings under them, none of which I actually use. I don't use Å/Ů either, but since I was pretty much covering all the Western European languages, I might as well include them.

I wondered momentarily if SJWs would complain about the AltGr assignments for U - you have to use Shift to generate ♀ - but then I realized that even if I reversed them, that would STILL be potentially offensive because that would place the ♂ on top. Either way, PATRIARCHY! So screw it, I did it the way that is most likely to stick in my mind.

There is a large swath down the middle (plus W and V) that don't really carry symbols I care about that much, but this was deliberate. I figured if someone else wants to fork this, it would be nice if they had a bunch of mostly contiguous keys to play with, without having to break the most important ones.

If anyone else wants this layout to play with, you can have it (for Windows at least). Feel free to modify to your heart's content, and redistribute if you like. Also, if you want to use the same AltGr mappings on the corresponding ANSI QWERTY layout keys, go right ahead.

[Muirium]

Well, if it works…

By the way, the Windows key is treated just the same as any other over USB and PS/2. In fact, Apple uses exactly the same keycode for the Command key on Macs, which is one of the primary mods (Command+C = copy, etc. all the way back to 1984). If there was shenanigans about tap vs. hold at the keyboard hardware level, PC keyboards wouldn't work so well with Macs, to put it lightly! Fortunately they do. All that stuff you've seen must be going on at the software level, in Windows.

[Mal-2]

Well, if it works…

By the way, the Windows key is treated just the same as any other over USB and PS/2. In fact, Apple uses exactly the same keycode for the Command key on Macs, which is one of the primary mods (Command+C = copy, etc. all the way back to 1984). If there was shenanigans about tap vs. hold at the keyboard hardware level, PC keyboards wouldn't work so well with Macs, to put it lightly! Fortunately they do. All that stuff you've seen must be going on at the software level, in Windows.

It turns out Win+arrows still doesn't work, now that I've put the arrow keys back on. Win+alphas still work though. Weird.

I'm pretty sure Alt+#### is still an internal conversion though.

[Muirium]

It's not the keyboard that does it. I use Alt+number shortcuts on OS X, with all manner of keyboards. They really do just send make and break codes.

What the OS chooses to do with that data is a whole other matter, though!

[Mal-2]

It's not the keyboard that does it. I use Alt+number shortcuts on OS X, with all manner of keyboards. They really do just send make and break codes.

What the OS chooses to do with that data is a whole other matter, though!

I did mention before that the main keyboard (the one on which I was pressing Alt) is PS/2, while the keypad is USB. Windows (and PCs in general, from the BIOS on up) does treat them as "separate but [sometimes] equal", so this may be where the disconnect happened. I never did test it with two USB keyboards.

[ullr]

I devised this layout for a JD40 I plan on owning

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... b1909f4810

[Mal-2]

I devised this layout for a JD40 I plan on owning

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/# ... b1909f4810

Might I suggest using ◄┘ to represent your Enter key on the layout? It looks intriguing, but wouldn't work for me. I have letters in many of the spots you've omitted and shoved onto AltGr keys.

One thing I might take advantage of is the fact that the MS Keyboard Layout Editor supports using the CapsLock state as a completely separate layer. I might use this to put the keyboard in full "dead keys" mode (meaning I don't have to use AltGr to reach the dead keys, they're on by default). The only thing is that then I'd have to double-tap the " and ' and , and such, but only when I'm in that mode. (Dead key + spacebar would still return the combining character.)

I've also prettied up my chopper keyboard. The fill is all hot glue, which I smoothed over with a soldering iron. Somewhat surprisingly, a 30W soldering pencil works quite well for sculpting hot glue, and moderately well for adding small amounts from the stick. Perhaps less surprisingly, hot glue in this quantity is quite solid, at least as solid as the plastic the shell is made of.The extra holes left of CapsLock and above Scroll Lock are for patching in LEDs the next time I have a need to open the shell. It's not worth opening it just for that.




Cutting off the end meant losing the fold-out leg, but gluing on a binder clip gets around that problem nicely. I had to put a shim on the other leg to get them to even out exactly.

[idollar]

I use é enough to know its code by memory, ç likewise. I can never remember the one for ñ, for whatever reason, and it's probably the one I have to use the most.

At home I use a debian (xfce) box. At work a W7.

I use English US International with deadkeys.

layout_linux.jpg (48.69 KiB) Viewed 6636 times

layout_w7.jpg (54.38 KiB) Viewed 6636 times

The characters that you have mentioned are easy to get with a combination of sequential key-presses:

ñ = ~ followed by n
é = ' followed by e
è = ` followed by e
ö = " followed by o

Pretty intuitive
If you need a tilde alone (~) just press ~ followed by an space

[kbdfr]

I use é enough to know its code by memory, ç likewise. I can never remember the one for ñ, for whatever reason, and it's probably the one I have to use the most.

I'm afraid you made a mistake when editing this post by Mal-2:
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/how ... ml#p203159
This apparent quote is nothing I said, it was Mal-2's reply to a previous post of mine. As a matter of fact, using a French AZERTY keyboard, I have é and ç directly at my fingertips and a ~ with which I could compose ñ if I ever happened to need it.

Anyway, I'm always surprised how you guys suggest solutions which for me would rather be another problem:

At home I use a debian (xfce) box. At work a W7.

To put it simply, I just have no clue what a "debian (xfce) box" is

[Mal-2]

The characters that you have mentioned are easy to get with a combination of sequential key-presses:

ñ = ~ followed by n
é = ' followed by e
è = ` followed by e
ö = " followed by o

Pretty intuitive
If you need a tilde alone (~) just press ~ followed by an space

I know how dead keys work. It's just that in an ANSI standard Dvorak layout, there aren't any. I'm not breaking that, unless AltGr gets involved. I do not want to get into habits (like hitting space after every apostrophe) that don't apply to other machines -- and I do use Dvorak on other machines whenever possible. I use accented characters just often enough to want them accessible, but infrequently enough that I am not willing to compromise anything but my right Alt key (which I don't use anyhow) to get them. If I attempt to make AltGr characters on another machine and fail, I'll just think "oh yeah, I don't have that layout here" and fire up Charmap or use Alt+#### combinations. I can't do the latter on this machine any more, I have a tenkeyless keyboard now, and even if I buy a nice mechanical keyboard in the next few days, it will also be tenkeyless.It's a compromise I'm willing to make for the comfort of having the mouse much closer.

I may also sacrifice CapsLock to gain another shift state with completely stock hardware and Windows tools, but I do use CapsLock for its intended purpose once in a great while. Of course, when that comes up, I could always switch layouts to a bog-standard ANSI Dvorak (or just my current layout where CapsLock behaves normally), which I leave installed.

Oh, I had a reason to open the case -- I got tired of not being able to see the status lights after failing to log in because CapsLock was on -- but I didn't want to go to the rather large effort of removing LEDs and tapping their lines and placing them elsewhere. Thus, I did the simplest (and hackiest) thing I could -- I put a transparent window in the back of the keyboard's shell so the LEDs can be seen. Unfortunately, I "missed" with my first attempt to put holes in the case and had to cut a second channel, making the job even hackier. Of course the very conversion is exceptionally hacky...

This is how I dealt with mounting the circuit board now that the portion of the case it was mounted in is gone:


Resulting in a slanted window that requires lifting the keyboard to see:


It's horrible workmanship, and frankly I'm surprised it works perfectly. The misalignment of the two membranes is quite severe, and they aren't aligned with the circuit board all that well either, yet somehow it just works. I don't care, it's a rubber dome that's just standing in until I can get a proper mechanical keyboard.

[Mal-2]

I revamped the layout. Unfortunately, for some reason I cannot discern, trying to use the CapsLock setting to enable dead keys does not work. I kept getting the accent and the letter separate from each other whenever I tried to do it this way. You can get the resulting layout here.

Anyhow, there are now only four dead keys, and none are "half dead keys". Either it's a dead key in both AltGr and Shift+AltGr, or not at all.

No more dots above/below. I've also moved the acute and umlaut/diaeresis key to ;: because I wanted to map ′ and ″ to ' and " respectively.



There are five diacritical types in the languages I'm concerned with: acute ´, grave `, circumflex ˆ, umlaut/diaeresis ¨,and tilde ˜. The caron ˇ was added simply to balance out/complete the circumflex dead key.

There are two other diacriticals included even though they aren't for Western European languages. First is the macron ¯, which I use to write things like shōjo and bishōnen and Yūko (instead of inserting "u" after each long vowel). It's an inevitable consequence of trying to properly Romanize Japanese. These are also useful for people who want to show how words are pronounced (long vowels). The counterbalance is the short vowel symbol ˘, which is the final remaining dead key assignment. These are also used to show how words are pronounced.

I moved quite a few AltGr characters around, and eliminated some like the shading boxes. I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of remembering the lot of them, but eight "virtual dead keys" I can deal with.

[photekq]

My setup 2015-01-12.jpg

Give me that Cherry cap!

[Mal-2]

I would be using it over a PS/2 port for NKRO reasons, which still means I can't use the x64 software without switching it to USB every time I want to change the macro assignments or anything else.

Apparently these can only be programmed in their native mode, even if they otherwise tolerate converters just fine. That would mean I'm looking for only USB, because I have absolutely no hardware with a PS/2 port and 32-bit Windows, and anticipate I never will again.

That said, are there any of the ANSI version floating around? These seem to be rare overall in the U.S., though I find tons of listings (ISO of course) on the UK eBay site.