The Realforce Euro Tour - Round 4

[Spikebolt]

It's really worth trying the ANSI layout once, specially if you are a software developer. I think the best is to use the US International layout because you can use the single quote to create portuguese characters as such:

' + a = á
' + c = ç
etc etc

[shreebles]

Don't worry about the shipping. I have a shipping address in Germany which make both shipping cost for you much less and saves me customs charges.

Wow, that's like......living the dream!

Thanks for the heads-up.

[Muirium]

It's really worth trying the ANSI layout once, specially if you are a software developer. I think the best is to use the US International layout because you can use the single quote to create portuguese characters as such:

' + a = á
' + c = ç
etc etc

True. But how much does it slow you down when typing Portuguese? And how much does ISO PT slow you down when typing code?

[Spikebolt]

I never measured but I think the difference is in confort/ergonomics not speed per say. Portuguese language has a couple of frequently used characters in unconfortable ANSI placements: ^, ` or ~. We don't use many words with ^ but we use ~ and ` a lot. In the ANSI layout `~ is in a terribly unconfortable position if you use it often (specially if you are not used to using the right shift, like myself). The HHKB solves this problem very well, though.

In programming the ANSI layout is WAY better. Here's why:
{ = Alt + 7
[ = Alt + 8
" = Shift + 2
< = Key to the left of Z (does not exist in ANSI)
\| = Key left to the 1 key (`~ in ANSI)
As you can see the frequently used chars for programming are all over the keyboard (literaly), and some require really unconfortable combinations (try doing Alt +7 all day, you'll know what I mean). In ANSI all these chars are grouped to the right of the keyboard, making them really easy to be used.

In sum I prefer the Portuguese ISO layout to type but have slowly been converted to the HHKB layout. Hard to use another board now.

[Muirium]

That old HHKB magic.

How about the feel of the Realforce vs. HHKB? It's only now I have both that I know what I like about each of them. The HHKB is so light, physically, that it's hard to see around that. After a while though, I've come to like the Realforce in several ways. Just not as much as the HHKB! The Realforce is as good as an SSK, but very different. The HHKB is better than both!

I'm not giving up my IBMs though. Sometimes I *need* that click. And they don't stain in daylight, which means I've nothing to worry about if the sun does peek on Scotland while I'm outside.

[Spikebolt]

I enjoy lighter switches and the HHKB feels a bit lighter than the Realforce so that's a win for me. Another really great thing about the HHKB are its keys. Th ey are fantastic dyesub medium thickPBT keys which contribute to the amazing feeling. At first I really enjoyed the Realforce 'rugged' keys, but I have grown to dislike them. I often feel like the keys are filled with dust or something and feel compeled to wash my hands more often. Not sure if it makes sense.

I prefer the HHKB in pretty much everything but portuguese writting and having dedicated arrow cluster. I use the Realforce at home and the HHKB at work

[Muirium]

HHKB and Realforce caps are almost identical. (Exact same profile, I have HHKB mods on my Realforce.) Perhaps the touring board needs a gentle clean!

I wonder: does anyone sell Portuguese Realforce caps? You could put them on the alphas on your HHKB.

[Spikebolt]

I was comparing with the 88UB keycaps I have at home, which have been clean. The HHKB have a soft texture while the Realforce are a bit rugged. The ones I have at home are black on black, the legends don't shine when comparing to the HHKB heh.

I don't think there are Portuguese realforce keycaps. A keyset without the windows domes would suffice, though!

[sphinx]

for programming at work its kinda hard to use in PT layout because the key for < and > doesnt exist, and i'm currently using a scripting language in xml, and i didnt really have time to adjust to using the ANSI layout.

regarding the feel of the keyboard, it feels good but i think its a bit too light for me

[sphinx]

The keyboard is on its way to andrewjoy right now. If anyone wants to check tracking please PM me

About the keyboard, i ended up really enjoying it!

As soon has i started getting used to the ANSI layout with the US international setting (which wasnt has dificult has i thought it would be) i had a blast.

The keys are very soft and the tactile feel is really nice. Its also a very stable and sturdy board.

Getting back to using a regular rubber dome keyboard now at work is a real pain

[Muirium]

Heh, sounds like another member of the club! What keyboard have you been inspired to add to your wishlist after this taste of the good stuff? Let me guess: it's ANSI?

[sphinx]

Heh, sounds like another member of the club! What keyboard have you been inspired to add to your wishlist after this taste of the good stuff? Let me guess: it's ANSI?

well i did fear that i wouldnt like ANSI layout, but it felt very confortable to use, and i quickly adapted to the diferent key combinations needed to use the portuguese characters

i also liked the way that some of the characters like [] abd { } were placed, and indeed it is pretty good for coding.

no that i crossed that barrier i fear that i'll spend too much money on all the awesome keycaps for ANSI keyboards out there

so yeah, it definitely made look at ANSI with other eyes

[Muirium]

Fun fact: I've never touched an ISO Topre. No need! I did briefly pay with a JIS Realforce, but otherwise all ANSI for me. Including the HHKB's improvements on the theme.

[sphinx]

Fun fact: I've never touched an ISO Topre. No need! I did briefly pay with a JIS Realforce, but otherwise all ANSI for me. Including the HHKB's improvements on the theme.

even if i havent fully decided for ISO or ANSI, i did love topre, for sure. those japps really know what they're doing

[Muirium]

That exact keyboard was the first Topre that I ever tried, too. I own two of my own now: HHKB and TKL Realforce. I was especially pleased by the caps. Topre makes a damn nice set of them. And so nicely profiled. Great shape.

Really helps when you're doomed because no MX = no GBs. Yet…

[andrewjoy]

This arrived several days ago and i gave it a quick go, quite frankly i am unimpressed, there is hardly any tactile feedback and the keys feel very vague. I am going to give it a full days blast in work and see if i warm to it.

Its not a bad keyboard by any means i just don't see what all the fuss and price are about.

The closest thing it feels to for me is liner space invaders but not as nice. The caps on both of them are very similar as well. Thats the best thing i can say about the realforce , its caps are very nice for a modern board.

[Muirium]

As I've said to folk before…

Topre is a subtle switch. A point that comes up again and again. Beware the meh! But once you've gotten into their flow, like after a long evening session of busy typing, they're magnificent. The opposite of so many chintzy clicky switches (MX blue I'm looking at you) that make you smile the first time you meet them, but get tiresome when you're really getting things done.

You're right about the caps. My favourite cylindricals out there today. Let's see if smooth tactile grows on you, my linear friend.

[andrewjoy]

I like tactile as well. But it has to be good tactile like IBM or older alps. MX blue are horrid.

We will see how it is after a big session.

[shreebles]

I like tactile as well. But it has to be good tactile like IBM or older alps. MX blue are horrid.

Funny, the only tactile Alps I tried were blacks, on an old dell and they were terrible. Too scratchy, but maybe it was just a bad keyboard. I would like to try those new matias tactiles though.

As for MX blue, they are horrid, but only when you compare them to IBMs! Compared to MX brown, they are heavenly!
Ergo-clears, I'm not sure. Currently I think they are better than blues but not as good as I would like.
The only ones I can never get tired of are the classic MX black. Can't wait for my Gateron blacks to arrive.

I am very unsure if I will like the Realforce. TBH I almost hated the Novatouch, but mostly for it's rattle-y-ness.
Perhaps I'm a linear guy but then why do I enjoy my Buckling springs so?

[Muirium]

For what it's worth: I don't like any MX besides the linears, I don't like Matias tactiles either, but I also love buckling spring and Topre. There is no killer switch to rule them all. If there were it would be beamspring. A clicky switch smooth as butter with a weighty tactile swing.

[andrewjoy]

Ok i have given it a few days, the switch itself is growing on me a bit its nice to use for a big sessions you are right on that.

I just cannot deal with the rattle, its horrible, it makes the keyboards sound and feel like a cheap rubber dome, they need to sort that out.

I don't know if this model is PBT or ABS. Ether way they need to do something about that rattle its a mood killer is what it is the switch itself is kind of nice.

Lettering on the caps is outstanding as well, all caps should be like that. its also very sturdy and does not go flying across the desk. Case is solid and the board itself looks good.

The rattle oh the rattle what a shame.

[Muirium]

Is this rattle on all keys? The touring board's stabs could use greasing. I remember it was a bit uneven all the way back when I had it.

Some people love the "Topre thock". (002, Matteo and Webwit swear by it.) Those of us who don't: Type-S. I love my silenced HHKB instead! (And paid regular HHKB money for it by avoiding EK and sourcing from Japan, where the premium is next to nothing.) My 55g Realforce 87U is good and thocky for sure. I like it, but do prefer the super subtle HHKB Type-S even so. My little ninja! Sneaked all the way past you know who!

Those caps are dyesub PBT. As standard. We aren't talking low end MX nonsense here.

[andrewjoy]

mostly on the space bar / wide keys. Spacebar feels and sounds terrible.

the 1u keys rattle when you rub your fingers over the caps , in comparison my ssk thats sitting next to me does not. when you type on them they are fine however they sound a bit funny when they return, bottom out sound is loverly

[Muirium]

Sounds like the poor girl's seen better days. No such rattle on 1u Topre keys for me. Their silence is awesome. Makes my SSKs feel a little wobbly in comparison. All 3 of them!

All right, I'm judging from the HHKB Type-S. I'll pull out the Realforce when I can. There are many subtle differences between the two main branches of the Topre family tree.

[seebart]

Sounds like a real life quality stress test to me. Let's see how RF does.

[andrewjoy]

if there is hhk tour i want to be at the top.

The novatouch tour is shorter so possibly that will be better

[Muirium]

The NovaTouch rattles like a skeleton when new. I'm sure you'll like that!

Could be about time for 002's TourForce to get a bit of TLC. A good clean, and grease of the stabs should work wonders. Don't know what's up with the 1u caps though. Maybe dirt on the sliders?

Someone on DT did start to organise an HHKB tour once. In Australia! Don't remember it actually starting. Pity. The Aussies might have 002, but we have his touring board up here in Europe!

Just a thought: how many DT club members don't have an HHKB and wish to test one? Perhaps we could buy one for the club and use it as an incentive for membership. I'd like to see what you guys make of an HHKB Type-S especially. But I ain't sacrificing mine! A Leopold FC660C would also be most informative. I've only briefly seen one myself.

[andrewjoy]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0-nEi ... sp=sharing

this is the spacebar sound. with some normal keys in between for comparison. Keep in mind this is in a large open plan office.

Thats not me pressing it down thats just tapping my fingers on it.

[andrewjoy]

Will be sending this on in the next few days.

I must say it did grow on me by the end , still i don't think they are for me.

I reseated the spacebar and that helped a little bit with the rattly feel of it.

[002]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts
From what you said, I would say that there's a good chance you would appreciate a 55g uniform board with a PBT spacebar.