minimalist keyboards - WHY?

[__red__]

Here's a thought experiment. Imagine a keyboard so vast that you never had to press any chords at all.

The "diabolical" Hyper7 comes to mind:

All those keys and a tiny spacebar? /* shakes head */

[Chyros]

This is why we need multiquote xD .

Some very interesting points raised by people so far! Seems most people prefer it for a combination of saving desk space, aesthetics and portability; fairly straightforward things, but also thing I would've have thought of such as further hand movement, past injuries and the mouse being too far away (Fohat's notion of having two mice actually quite intrigues me XD) .

Well that's all fine and well. But Mr. Chochead will still tell you how you're doing it wrong. And by the phrasing of the question, I reckon Chyros will still agree with him.

Oh it's not that I'm hateful of small layouts or something, not at all. It's just that right now, to me, the advantages aren't all that relevant, and the disadvantages are. More specifically, at work, my desk is very long, but not very broad. This means there's too little space in front of my keyboard to be useful, regardless of how small the keyboard is, and there's more than enough to the side, so going fullsize doesn't matter. My home desk is big enough for a battleship, so size is no problem there. I also constantly need both the nav cluster as well as the numpad for the kind of work I do right now. Aesthetically, I can see the beauty in some small keyboards, but then again, big keyboards have a rather inherent presence and impressiveness to them. And of course, I'm way more familiar with fullsize keyboards as I've had almost anything but.

Here's a thought experiment. Imagine a keyboard so vast that you never had to press any chords at all. There's two number rows, so you can hit !@#$ etc. without Shift. And there's a whole second alpha block just for UPPER CASE ALL BY ITSELF.

Anyone here fancy that epic layout? It'll hog the living crap out of your workspace. And moving your hands around that much would slow you right down. But the purity! You could have two RollerMouses under there, easy. And don't forget the TrackPoints!

I wouldn't pick those exact functions, no, but I can think of a ~150% layout I would actually find useful and would enjoy using :p .

I'm back home next week, and I'll be reviewing a 60% keyboard, actually. Tiny spoiler I guess, but I'll leave it to you guys to guess what it might be .

[KRKS]

The real problem of the Hyper7 — besides the fact 7bit has no cases planned to mount the gigantic PCB inside — is a lot of those extra keys have no function in the USB HID keyboard spec. Which means actually getting them to function on your computer may be… awkward. He threw his GB template at it without thinking through the functions, I think. I've no idea how to use it.

That's a problem in Windows, however in Linux/BSD/probably Mac as well you can make your own keymaps, and I'm pretty sure that also includes things outside the USB spec.

All those keys and a tiny spacebar? /* shakes head */

Not sure if you noticed, but 7bit hates stabilisers. All of the 7bit layouts on his boards are fully stabless(and in here the 2u keys are actually mounted on two switches).

[ohaimark]

Why? Smaller, if taken to an extreme, can increase WPM massively. If one wants the ultimate in typing speed they must use a chorded keyboard. If they want that keyboard to support PC GUIs, they must build said keyboard into a mouse.

But that digresses -- if you use a keyboard designed for your purpose, you will be better off. Keyboards are specialized tools for specialized jobs.

Stuff that has already been said:

Spoiler:

A typist/programmer/everyday user will usually be fine with a 60%, especially if that 60% has a grid layout instead of a staggered one (for easier Fn based ten-key operation). Most PC tasks don't require the ten-key or Fn keys, nor do the tasks see any efficiency gains from their presence. Their smaller size makes them easier to use with mobile devices, such as laptops, which are taking over the market. There is also a notable trend of minimalist aesthetics (except when it comes to artisan caps... people ruin perfectly good keyboards with those); ten-keyed boards don't quite fit the bill in that regard. There are likely other reasons, such as ergonomics, but you get the idea. I'm actually glad to see a group of consumers gravitating toward simplicity and efficiency instead of myriads of random features. Just because one has space doesn't mean one should attempt to fill it... But there isn't a thing wrong with anyone who fills that space and uses what occupies it.

Now let's look at the demographics that might want specialized/bigger keyboards:

• A gamer will do best with a board that makes keys close to certain key clusters (WASD) and easy to press under stress -- Fn macros are easy to screw up and can take one's fingers away from the movement keys for longer.
• A businessman, especially one who deals with spreadsheets, would likely want a dedicated ten-key -- he could use shortcuts/enter quick strings of letters with his left hand and hammer in numbers/operate arrow keys with his right (data entry... ugh).
• A CAD operator with a job that requires 99.99% perfection may want an IBM Battleship with numerous F keys for Macro operations, as having dedicated keys could lower instances of wrong keypresses.

I type and game, so boards without ten-keys are ideal for my purposes. I have a new 65%-ish in the mail right now, and I might make/buy a chorded keyboard at some point -- it's a fascinating concept.

Smaller board benefits, as I see them:

Spoiler:

• Portable (as I go to LANparties with my desktop)
• I don't need a ten-key when gaming or writing
• Fits in my lap when on couch
• Optimized layouts can move useful gaming keys closer to homerow (see extreme example, which I owned)

I own and regularly type on standard, ten-keyed vintage keyboards. Why do that when it's inefficient? Because they're unique in some way. Their build quality is high. They have special switches. Et cetera. I could cannibalize them to make 60% boards with Blue and Green Alps, but that would feel wrong.

When you are in the role of a collector, things don't always boil down to efficiency.

[matt3o]

this is one of those topics you should never put yourself into, and you actually never get an actual answer. More or less like "what is the best switch".

OP asked why people like minimalist keyboards (from people who actually like them I guess), and of course this becomes an Atari vs Amiga war

For me having the arrow cluster the nearest to the alpha block is very important. A TKL for example doesn't still really work for me. So who argues that small keyboards don't offer reduced hands movement benefit actually don't use the keyboard the way I use it.

Also, on my desktop I have 3 PCs (1 of which a laptop)... I really don't know how I could fit 3 Model Ms on my desktop

[ohaimark]

I don't know, matt3o... I think this thread was pretty educational for the OP. Even with the Apple vs. PC... er, I mean Atari vs. Amiga war.

I tried to defuse a bit of that with my previous post. If anyone bothers to read it all.

I agree with you about that arrow cluster; my next keyboard will have it AND be TKL. I often get annoyed with my Quickfire TK when that cluster is acting as a part of the numpad.

[bhtooefr]

It's also worth noting that the TrackPoint has 2D scrolling, not 1D. Hold the middle button, the stick becomes a 2D scroll device.

[Rainman]

The main reason I switched to a 60% keyboard is the huge space gain and no more right shoulder pain. My right arm reached far to the side for the mouse thus causing me cramps in my shoulder after prolonged PC use. Since I've made the switch I can only say that I never ever want to have keyboard larger than a TKL at my desk. Even TKL is big after using Pok3r.
I feel that the functional layers, once you get used to it, become a second nature and additional keys really obsolete.

[Muirium]

That's the key. When you're into 60%, and have a layer scheme just as internalised as QWERTY or the alpha layout of your choice, the other blocks do become superfluous. You spend all your time in the 60% block. Spared all this hunting about for different zones of the keyboard. And all at the same kind of speed as we all type those jumbled alphas so instinctively.

I like this point of Kbdfr's assault:

• "More space on your desktop":
  On most setups published in the corresponding photo thread, there is barely anything else than the keyboard on the desktop.

Most of us aren't daring enough to post pictures of our actual workspaces, because they're a hateful mess. You'd find just as many fullsize keyboards posed on Platonic ideal worktops, far from a computer or any actual work! But for the sake of the discussion, here's where I'm standing right now:



Okay, so I updated the mouse mat since that shot! And I use the mouse closer than it looks up there. Because I didn't want to hide the ballerina!

The rest of my typing, I do from the couch, with my Mac on the coffee table, my HHKB on my lap and the mouse beside me. Neither environment is exactly worthy of a Madhias or Snoopy grade keyboard porn shot. But neither place is any good for a fullsize keyboard either. The numpad would butt against the chair arm or hang right over my mouse.

Edit: Here's an update, seeing as everyone loves recursive screenshots:

IMG_1915.jpg (211.59 KiB) Viewed 6056 times

I'm still looking for a square mousemat. But this one does have a Matteo style bot on it, so it's not all bad.

[kbdfr]

[…] Kbdfr's assault: […]

[…] Most of us aren't daring enough to post pictures of our actual workspaces, because they're a hateful mess. […]

Now that is a real work environment, with a real keyboard

[Muirium]

What do you take on holiday? The newspaper crossword puzzle and a pen?

[Laser]

I'm still looking for a square mousemat. But this one does have a Matteo style bot on it, so it's not all bad.

Or, you could go for a round monitor

[zslane]

I'm surprised folks here aren't into VR setups. Occulus headsets and haptic gloves reduce the amount of space taken to zero while providing unlimited screen real estate and the ultimate in ergonomic chording semantics. And it probably wouldn't be difficult to configure the audio feedback to sound like the perfect Topre "thock" without any other noise. It would be the ultimate refutation of setups like mine where I have dual 24" displays, a full size ANSI keyboard, a mouse, and just enough space to spare (on the left) for my iPad.

[ohaimark]

I'm waiting for an Avegant Glyph with a wider FOV and higher resolution...

https://www.avegant.com/

[matt3o]

OMG! I need that mouse pad!

[b4d_tR1p]

hihihi

[DanielT]

For me the discovery of compact 60% boards was life changing. 2 years ago I was on the search for a small keyboard, alinh gave me a Poker X and everything changed. I love this compact format because I don't waste space, I need to concentrate only a small surface, it's portable, I can have more boards that take little storage space and rotate them based on how feel in that moment.
I do have 2 "bigger" boards, SSK and Dolch, these are an exception and get little use. I never get bored of my 60% keyboards, I now have 6 of them

[vvp]

I'm surprised folks here aren't into VR setups. Occulus headsets and haptic gloves reduce the amount of space taken to zero while providing unlimited screen real estate and the ultimate in ergonomic chording semantics.

I do not know how good haptic gloves are but I doubt they are better than a good contoured keyboard. How about sweating? That could get pretty messy.
And I definitely do not consider a chunk of stuff weighting about 350 g with a centre of gravity above the tip of my nose to be comfortable at all. And resolution of 1080×1200 is nothing to write home either. Not even mentioning about 90° FOV. After a few hours of wearing it your neck with hurt and the area around eyes will be at least itchy from the pressure of the bulky hardware in front of your eyes. Unfortunately most people need to work about 4 hours a day at least.

VR may be a future but it has a very long way to go before it is usable. For now a good (preferably contoured) keyboard and a rather cheap big 4K monitor will do much better. At least that is my opinion

PS: And all the inverted T navigation cluster lowers should learn the beauty of a vim or kinesis advantage style of navigation. It would be a sad day when I would be forced to return back to the inverted T.

[bocahgundul]

For me the discovery of compact 60% boards was life changing. 2 years ago I was on the search for a small keyboard, alinh gave me a Poker X and everything changed. I love this compact format because I don't waste space, I need to concentrate only a small surface, it's portable, I can have more boards that take little storage space and rotate them based on how feel in that moment.
I do have 2 "bigger" boards, SSK and Dolch, these are an exception and get little use. I never get bored of my 60% keyboards, I now have 6 of them

Wow danielt so you really like them small eh?

[Muirium]

@vvp: 24 inch 4K is my tip. 180 pixels per inch = Retina resolution for me. Which means I can run my Mac at even higher resolutions without scaling artifacts. Boom!

4K is wasted at larger sizes. If you see pixels, they blew it. VR headsets will need as much extra resolution as they need weight loss. A long way to go yet!

[vvp]

@Muirium: Well at least we see how our preferences differ.
I do not care about retina resolutions for monitors. I kind of expect seeing individual pixels there but I would not want it in something like a VR headset. I'm ok with being able to see the small "stairs" in sloped lines on a simple LCDs which has about 4 pixels per mm. The thing I need from monitors is the area. I need to see at least about 110 columns of 70 lines of source code at once in an editor/debugger. I need to see about the same amount of text in a help file and I need to see the application GUI I debug (if it is a GUI application). Additional space is good to see more source code files at once or to have graphical side-by-side source files being compared while e.g. debugging. That means the stuff below 40" diagonal will be cramped. I'm not doing movies or pictures. Only text, charts, schematics, or 3D models of parts. 4 pixels per mm are enough for that. Would I want more. Sure. But I'm not going to pay much premium for it, probably only in the range of 10 - 20 %. For now, I'm solving it by having 5 small monitors connected to one computer. But I can imagine replacing some of them with one 4k monitor ... a big one for me

On the other side, a VR headset is supposed to simulate a real vision and that means a retina quality ... and better FOV! Anyway the biggest problem of current VR hardware is that it is freaking bulky and heavy. Not useful at all for most of the work related stuff. And I'm not sure how big problem would be that our eyes are focused all the time to the same distance while looking both on the near as well as far objects. Can be bad for eyes or lead to headaches. Though I believe one should be able to train himself out of the headaches. So that should not be a big problem.

But I see we agree on the fact that VR needs much more development to be actually useful outside of extreme niches

[KRKS]

Nah, I don't think VR will become a thing outside of entertainment or 3D work, because it's either not immersive enough(you feel the headset on your head, the sounds of outside world, the pain when you walk into a wall, etc.) or too immersive(think Sword Art Online).

@vvp: I don't know how is the progress going, but 3DS is getting more and more homebrew, and people have already managed to install Linux on it, so maybe in the future a jailbroken 3DS could be used as a portable computer. You'd get 130 collumns and 80 lines with a 5x3 font just on the top screen(the menu could go on the bottom screen). The only problem is that there isn't a good way to connect a keyboard to it unless somebody starts making cartridges with USB ports.

[vvp]

@vvp: I don't know how is the progress going, but 3DS is getting more and more homebrew, and people have already managed to install Linux on it, so maybe in the future a jailbroken 3DS could be used as a portable computer. You'd get 130 collumns and 80 lines with a 5x3 font just on the top screen(the menu could go on the bottom screen).

Man, I'm above 40. I would need magnifying glass to see so many letter on such a small screen
That is despite the fact that I do not need any glasses yet hopefully that will not change in the near time

[KRKS]

Well, I didn't think about that, but there's always the XL which is bigger at the same resolution

[nicstreet]

I for one am hunting the elusive perfect travelling companion for my Surface Pro, my Pok3r comes close, the Whitefox will be even closer and a BlueFox?? (Whitefox with Bluetooth) would be perfect I think. I find typing more enjoyable (and comfortable) since my switch from full size, and happily switch between 60% and TKL.

My days of happily lugging about a 3kg Dell and perhaps a client laptop or two are long gone. I like portability along with the enhanced feel of a mobile mechanical keyboard.

I also love the 'envious' glances from green-eyed dome bashers when I'm typing full throttle

[bhtooefr]

Also, I don't think I got around to answering the original question.

Why do I use smaller form factor keyboards? Because they're what I'm used to at some innate levels. My first computer, when I was 3, was an Apple //c, which was a 60% in the modern form (just with linear arrow keys, something I wish 60% keyboards did today, actually). All I was exposed to until I was 6 was that, a //e clone (same layout basically), and a Laser 128EX (same layout, but with function keys (I forget what they actually did) and a numpad added).

And, while my family has had full-size keyboards since I was 6 (1994), I personally didn't have one on my own machine until 1999 (so when I was 11) or so. I've always been a bit laptop-centric with my workflows, too, which means compact layouts (if not 60%) are what I'm used to. That's not to say that I'm not adapted to full-size layouts, but more that my innate preferences tend towards more compact.

That said, my favorite layout is the 7-row ThinkPad layout as implemented in the 60 and 00/01 generations of ThinkPads, and that's not at all a 60% - it actually crams every key that a tenkeyless has into a 70-75% or so.

[neverused]

I'll leave this here, it's a work in progress, but I like the space it affords...

[Muirium]

A Model M in Kish's clothing…

[neverused]

A Model M in Kish's clothing…

No Kishes were harmed.

[dwasifar]

Hi everyone, been reading for a while but this is my first post here, so I figured why not jump into the deep end and join this irresolvable debate.

I see three main arguments being made in favor of compact boards: desk space, right hand mouse position, and keeping your fingers on the home row.

I use full size boards. I can understand all three of these arguments, but none of them are pressing enough to get me to want to switch. To deal with them in order:

Desk space: I have always had plenty of desk space, and my work is almost completely paperless anyway, so even if my desk space were more limited, I'd still be okay as long as I had enough space for the board itself and the mouse.

Right hand mouse position: I can understand how that would be a problem for some people. For me, it isn't, maybe because I have long monkey arms. It doesn't feel like a stretch to reach for the mouse.

Keeping your fingers on the home row: This is the most convincing argument of the three for me. I get that jumping around to different regions of the board wastes fractional time, but I use function keys and arrow keys a lot in my work and I'm not sure I would want to give them up; it's convenient to have them as single keys rather than chording. To execute a sql, for example, I'm accustomed to just reaching for F5, and though it's true that I leave the home row when I do, it's not by very much. I could probably do without the numpad; I use it for things like spreadsheet data entry or calculator, but that's a small part of my work. I would miss Ctl-Arrow; I don't even know how you do that on a board without arrows. Plus which I would rarely get the full benefit of keeping my fingers on the home row anyway, because you can't reach Backspace without leaving the home row, and I use it a lot; not just for mistakes but to edit and revise as I go.

Someone offered a what-if thought experiment about having separate keys for caps and lowercase. It's an interesting illustration, and I see the point, but on the other hand there is a natural correspondence in our minds between capital and lowercase letters from when we are taught the alphabet in kindergarten, making the shift key at least a little more natural and easy to conceptualize. (Caps Lock, on the other hand, should be killed with fire.) I'd suggest thinking of it the opposite way; what if you had a 30% keyboard, and each letter key served for two different letters depending on whether you had another key pressed? Someone responded talking about a one-handed chord keyboard that probably does exactly that, but I think that would be a hard sell to most people.

So even though I acknowledge that these things have a point for people who prefer them, I don't have any pressing desire to change. Which is lucky for me, because I have two excellent early '90s 1391401 boards, meticulously restored with screw mods by Phosphorglow, and they suit me fine. I really don't want to shell out the extra bucks for an SSK, or home brew my own chopped-and-channeled version with a bandsaw. I'm impressed that some people have, but I really don't think I could bring myself to do it.

How's that for a first post?