Alps Appreciation

lootbag · 19 Mar 2016, 09:04

itzmeluigi wrote: I actually just bought that exact board from the listing the other day It should arrive sometime next week.

Yeah, I am just not sure because the switch looks like a more vibrant blue compared to regular ALPS blue which has a bit more grey in the blue.

I am still thinking about your offer by the way!

itzmeluigi · 19 Mar 2016, 09:13

The blue does look more vibrant but its most likely just from the picture since the tab is visible so its almost certainly genuine.

Nice no rush

fohat · 19 Mar 2016, 13:45

lootbag wrote:
more vibrant blue compared to regular ALPS blue which has a bit more grey in the blue.

Like this?

E3E · 19 Mar 2016, 14:16

lootbag wrote: Any idea what keyboard this is?
I think it says "Northgate Computer Systems" on the top left but could not figure out the model.
Pretty sure it has blue ALPS but not sure if it is genuine or knockoffs ALPS.

It's a Focus FK-747.

I wouldn't be too concerned with slider color. It seems that however or whatever Alps used to dye their sliders isn't very colorfast and you can see a lot of fading amid most Alps switches even within a single batch. With Alps SKCM Blue, I've seen colors range from a very muted, almost grey blue, to a very vivid and vibrant ultramarine blue.

Yep, fohat clearly shows this in his above post too.

Also willing to bet that those key caps are pad printed.

Reason being that my Focus FK-555 is also pad printed and the legend is very similar. It's hard to notice, but the 0 on the number pad is a big indicator compared to Alps Electric Dyesubs or DS caps.

lootbag · 19 Mar 2016, 14:27

Thanks for the info.
Unfortunately but I snoozed and none left for sale now haha.
Guess I will have to keep waiting.

seebart · 19 Mar 2016, 15:21

E3E wrote: I wouldn't be too concerned with slider color. It seems that however or whatever Alps used to dye their sliders isn't very colorfast and you can see a lot of fading amid most Alps switches even within a single batch. With Alps SKCM Blue, I've seen colors range from a very muted, almost grey blue, to a very vivid and vibrant ultramarine blue.

Exactly, I've also seen a more purple-blue tone slider. Like I've said before I don't think the precise slider color was paramount in Alps SKCL/SKCM series production.

Redmaus · 19 Mar 2016, 15:44

When itzmuluigi showed me a picture of his Filco Zero, I actually thought it was purple.

I guess blue alps came in different shades.

bubblebobbler · 19 Mar 2016, 16:13

so as I said in two other threads already asking for help, I picked up this board recently from a JP auction

this is my first exposure to black alps (or alps in general for that matter) and dang, they really are pretty nice, and this isn't even an Alps switch that people rave about. The closest I've tried in the past is an Acer switch in a Viglen board which felt very hollow to me in comparison. I'm unsure if I'll buy an ADB to USB adapter because they are pretty expensive (the imate anyhow, I'm unsure on whether there's a much cheaper option I haven't heard about).

My only worry at the moment is that hitting the ISO off-center seems to be pretty annoying due to the wobble

Redmaus · 19 Mar 2016, 16:17

Is it alps black pine or bamboo?

bubblebobbler · 19 Mar 2016, 16:22

Redmaus wrote: Is it alps black pine or bamboo?

bamboo, simplified alps

keycap · 19 Mar 2016, 16:25

Now I want more Alps.

I'm especially interested in tactile Alps. I'm craving tactile key switches because all that I own right now are clicky or linear. I've been trying to find a Dell AT101W for a while now, and even they don't come around in my area. Seems like my only option is to find a Dell AT101W on eBay for $30... Not a great price for such a common keyboard if you ask me

Redmaus · 19 Mar 2016, 16:37

I have a black and a beige Dell AT101W. I would be willing to sell one to you.

But with most likely a 30 dollar price tag

It really is a fair price considering the layout and caps

Chyros · 19 Mar 2016, 18:01

$30 is fair for a black AT101W. The beige ones you should be able to get for a pickled egg :p .

E3E · 19 Mar 2016, 21:16

$30 is a nice price for a black Dell AT101W. My pickled egg cost me $30, actually. I wish someone would buy it, since I bought it on impulse for a spring I lost from a bamboo SKCM Green (I had springs of the same weight, but bamboo springs are a little shorter and have tighter coils, and I wanted a match)... But then I found the spring randomly one day.

I don't need it AT ALL.

It's an alright board. The caps are what make the typing experience utterly insulting, to be honest. It feels like you're typing on plastic ice cubes.

When I put PBT caps on the switches from one of my Xerox boards, just as a test, they felt a LOT better, and I'd say they were actually quite pleasant.

Blaise170 · 19 Mar 2016, 21:52

bubblebobbler wrote: so as I said in two other threads already asking for help, I picked up this board recently from a JP auction

this is my first exposure to black alps (or alps in general for that matter) and dang, they really are pretty nice, and this isn't even an Alps switch that people rave about. The closest I've tried in the past is an Acer switch in a Viglen board which felt very hollow to me in comparison. I'm unsure if I'll buy an ADB to USB adapter because they are pretty expensive (the imate anyhow, I'm unsure on whether there's a much cheaper option I haven't heard about).

My only worry at the moment is that hitting the ISO off-center seems to be pretty annoying due to the wobble

I have several of these: you don't need an ADB adapter. You actually need a 4pin to 6pin cable since it is PS/2 compatible.

bubblebobbler · 20 Mar 2016, 00:09

Blaise170 wrote:
bubblebobbler wrote: I have several of these: you don't need an ADB adapter. You actually need a 4pin to 6pin cable since it is PS/2 compatible.

does that mean messing with the internals? the port is an ADB port

Blaise170 · 20 Mar 2016, 00:32

No, it's not an ADB port, it's a PS2 port with a 4 pin terminal.

bubblebobbler · 20 Mar 2016, 00:38

Blaise170 wrote: No, it's not an ADB port, it's a PS2 port with a 4 pin terminal.

aha, you are correct!

when I'd asked in another thread I was told it was an ADB port (though I literally provided an MS paint picture for people to answer from)

thanks for the info!

Blaise170 · 20 Mar 2016, 00:50

Well ADB is normally 4 pin and PS2 is normally 6 pin but for some reason Filco used 4 pin PS2 cables on their PC keyboards.

bubblebobbler · 20 Mar 2016, 01:03

Blaise170 wrote: Well ADB is normally 4 pin and PS2 is normally 6 pin but for some reason Filco used 4 pin PS2 cables on their PC keyboards.

yeah, very weird, I thought this may be the case as I'd seen a very similar model was ps/2 interface

looks like I'll be getting one of these then

thanks again

fohat · 20 Mar 2016, 02:42

The PS/2 connector is physically a "mini-DIN-6" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN_connector but only 4 pins are active as #2 and #6 in this diagram don't do anything. I have seen keyboard cables where they were cut off or did not exist.

Blaise170 · 21 Mar 2016, 04:54

bubblebobbler wrote:
yeah, very weird, I thought this may be the case as I'd seen a very similar model was ps/2 interface

looks like I'll be getting one of these then

thanks again

I've been looking for one of those! Can't find them anywhere online, I keep finding cables for a Playstation 2 or other 6-pin/4-pin cables like Molex...

fohat wrote: The PS/2 connector is physically a "mini-DIN-6" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN_connector but only 4 pins are active as #2 and #6 in this diagram don't do anything. I have seen keyboard cables where they were cut off or did not exist.

Yeah, just seems like a weird design choice though, given the prevalence of PS/2 ports on that era of PCs. You can usually still find PS/2 on modern PCs too. Maybe it really was because Strong Man was trying to cut costs by keeping the ADB port instead of converting them over to using a 6-pin port.

Sankart · 22 Mar 2016, 03:36

This evening I had some spare time to waste on some vintage Alps keyboards laying around. One is a AEK I with orange Alps and one is an AEK II with White dampened Alps. Both have seen quite heavy use I guess, at least their spacebars are rather yellow.
Since I wasn't very happy with neither of them I tried opening the switches, cleaning them, lubing them and finally I reassembled them. Turns out they've gotten even worse.
I don't know what happened, but some of the switches are, if only a little, clicking now during the upstroke? Even some of the switches I only opened and cleaned (didn't do anything to the springleaf, no lube, no bending) started with this weird behaviour. Is there any common mistake that can provoke this symptom? What makes me wonder is that both switches (orange and d. white) do this now and I got no idea why.

Well anyway, out of anger I decided to get a spring leaf from one of the many Matias QC I got lying around and put it into one of the orange Alps. The result is quite nice: Very tactile, no click during the upstroke (although the Matias leaf comes prelubed) and overall the switch feels quite "new" in comparrison to the other, quite busted orange Alps. If this is closer to what NiB orange Alps feel than busted orange Alps, I can finally understand why orange Alps are so well regarded.
After somebody recommended me to clickmod them (if you read this, thanks again) I tried to use an Matias clicky spring leaf as well and it was basically the same, but a little crisper (I guess "newer" fits quite well again, keep in mind my orange Alps are quite busted). Sadly I don't like to use clicky switches everyday, so I guess I won't be able to use my switches that way.

I also tried to use a Matias QC slider in orange Alps, which feels quite horrible. Kind of like an Ergo-Clear with a less pronounced bump (but not grainy like MX Brown) and shorter travel.
But the other way around I achieved a rather interesting result. An orange Alps slider in a Matias QC switch resulted in a crazily sharp tactile bump, of which I'm still not sure whether to like it or not. It's nearly impossible to not bottom out because once you reached the threshold the switch just collapses, hence the bottom-out is quite hard.
A nice side effect is that there is basically no more keywobble, which always annoyed me a lot using unmodded Matias QC.

: kbp2.jpg (773.04 KiB) Viewed 7018 times

In the end I'm quite happy with todays progress, I've found two (well three, if I ever decide to get a clicky keyboard again) ways to actually put those Alps to good use. I still don't know what to do with the white dampened Alps though. Maybe I'll try to Frankenstein them as well at some point, I don't know.

Did you ever build a similar Frankenstein switch? If so, where you pleased with it?

Sorry if stuff got a little tangled, especially in the end, but I'm pretty tired

jacobolus · 22 Mar 2016, 03:52

Sankart wrote: I don't know what happened, but some of the switches are, if only a little, clicking now during the upstroke? Even some of the switches I only opened and cleaned (didn't do anything to the springleaf, no lube, no bending) started with this weird behaviour. Is there any common mistake that can provoke this symptom? What makes me wonder is that both switches (orange and d. white) do this now and I got no idea why.

You’re not reassembling them properly.

Either the spring isn’t seated properly, the tactile leaf isn’t seated properly, the slider and/or top housing is in backwards, etc...

It’s a bit tricky, but if you practice a bit I’m sure you can figure it out. You should be able to fix the ones which are making sounds by taking them apart and putting them back together again. Perhaps take apart a switch you haven’t opened before and make careful note of how it fits together, so that you can make sure you know which side of each part should be facing which way.

Well anyway, out of anger I decided to get a spring leaf from one of the many Matias QC I got lying around and put it into one of the orange Alps. The result is quite nice: Very tactile, no click during the upstroke (although the Matias leaf comes prelubed) and overall the switch feels quite "new" in comparrison to the other, quite busted orange Alps. If this is closer to what NiB orange Alps feel than busted orange Alps, I can finally understand why orange Alps are so well regarded.

yep. Matias leaves work reasonably well (perhaps not perfectly, but better than a worn out original) in complicated Alps switches. You can’t swap the leaves the other way, because complicated Alps leaves are slightly wider, so they won’t fit in Matias switches.

I’m pretty sure the Matias leaves are inherently a bit more tactile than brand new orange Alps switches (it’s hard to be 100% sure, because just sitting unused on a shelf for 30 years might bend the leaves slightly compared to their original shape). But they’re reasonably similar. But yes, mint condition orange Alps switches are very nice to type on.

The other thing you can do to restore some snap to worn out Alps switches is (very carefully!) bend the back side of the tactile leaf with your fingers so that it is close to straight again; they tend to get a bit hunched over after heavy use. Tread lightly though: slight changes to the tactile leaves can make big differences to switch feel, and it’s relatively easy to accidentally bend the leaves into a shape where they’ll be difficult or impossible to restore.

Sankart · 22 Mar 2016, 04:56

So I tried to assemble a single switch for the past 60 minutes now and I'm pretty sure I didn't make any mistake.
Whether I follow Chyrosran22s guide or just assemble everything in the housing (except for the spring) and pray to god the spring finds its way while assembling, there remains the click during the upstroke.
I also disassembled another switch to look if there is anything I misplace, but I really don't think so.
I changed the springleaf once too, but it didn't change much. I don't know, but I'm too sleepy to look further into it.

I guess I just managed to somehow slightly bend both leaves. Luckily there are the Matias leaves so I can at least repair my first, probably failed, experiment with Alps switches.
Thank you very much for your fast answer

jacobolus · 22 Mar 2016, 06:53

If it wasn’t making a sound originally, and now it is making a sound, something must have changed in between...

Anyway, definitely not worth spending an hour per switch.

Blaise170 · 27 Mar 2016, 07:39

I am now the owner of a Filco Zero, in JIS layout! Pretty cool but I'm hoping I'll be able to find replacement keys for it. If not, I may just resell it on eBay with the other stuff I have. I should be able to at least break even. One of these days I hope to find an ANSI Filco Zero or Ducky 1087XM.

Redmaus · 27 Mar 2016, 08:09

How did you get that????

Too bad its not ANSI. I like the JIS layout for the most part except for the ISO enter.

alh84001 · 27 Mar 2016, 08:48

Does anyone know if Made in Ireland M0116s (UK layout) can come with orange switches, or are they limited to salmon ones?

Blaise170 · 27 Mar 2016, 08:50

Redmaus wrote: How did you get that????

Too bad its not ANSI. I like the JIS layout for the most part except for the ISO enter.

Yeah if it was ANSI it would be perfect since I could replace the keys if needed (I think these are pad print). I just won it on Yahoo JP auctions.