Alps Appreciation

[Chyros]

I don't understand how you guys don't use Caps Lock and print screen Oo . I use them both frequently! I also use Scroll Lock, but I can understand it if others don't use that because that's pretty niche.

The only keys I don't really ever use are Insert, Pause and `. Everything else I use at least sometimes.

Me too. Scroll Lock is good in spreadsheets but I don't use it too much. Home and End bother me because I never actually use them for their purposes and when I hit them it is by accident and I find myself disoriented.

What I really don't understand is the anger against Delete. That is surely one of my 5 most-used keys, but maybe you guys just don't make mistakes.

Indeed, delete is fucking great, I use it more than backspace! I also use home and end a lot, mostly when browsing the internet.

[Blaise170]

I use PrntScr all the time! It is built into Windows, all you have to do is copy it into an editing software (even Paint). I use the nav cluster and ~ all the time for programming.

[seebart]

I'd say "Ctrl", "page up & page down" and "delete" are amongst my most used keys, PrntScr is in the top ten.

[cookie]

I must say that I rarely use the ctrl in the left bottom corner, I mean I have none on my HHKB but when going back to a regular keyboard it feels utterly strange and unergonomic.

Capslock is the best Ctrl

[jacobolus]

By delete do you mean backward delete ⌫, or forward delete ⌦? I use both functions regularly, but I have ⌫ either on a thumb key or on a layer on the home row, depending on the keyboard, and I also have ⌦ on a layer on the home row.

Anyone on a Mac can by default use control + D for ⌦. On a Mac laptop fn + ⌫ also works. Or it’s quite easy to assign some other key combination.

Dedicating two discrete keys to delete keys is a waste, and the position of the ⌦ key on IBM extended layout keyboards is horribly unreachable.

Similarly, the functions for "go to the top of the page", "go down by a page", etc. are useful, but giving these their own dedicated keys in an unreachable location is functionally inefficient, uncomfortable, and a waste of space.

[seebart]

There's only one delete key on my current setup but I know what you mean.

[guster11]

Hey guys, I was recommened here by mastermachetier, and was hoping someone could help me with my current restoration project. I bought a datatech spk-100 a few years back(5 bucks at a flea, talk about a steal) and just recently refound it. It was in very rough and unworking condition when I originally picked it up, but I have since whitenened and started to repair the case.

The issue I had with it at first was somehow a capacitor was broken, and I have since replaced that. The only issue was I didn't know the voltage(using a 1000v now) and while the original cap had tolerance k I am using a k now. With that installed i was able to get the LEDs to flash when it plugged in, but then it would freeze my computer after spamming random letters. I feel like it might be a compatibility issue since its quite old and had a din5 connector so it might be wired for AT. That or it doesn't like the new cap, which I think is just a decoupling cap so that shouldn't be affecting it that badly.

Here's the pictures I have of it pre-touch up:
http://imgur.com/fU60qoc

[Chyros]

Oh wow, that's a fantastic deal! Are you going to clean out the switches? If so, check out my video tutorial for that, it might be helpful .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mhmb2kBuwQ

[Blaise170]

Got in the NEC PC-8801 in today, it does indeed have Blue Alps! Not sure yet whether I'll keep or sell it. Another SHARP X68000 also arrived, with Yellow Alps. Unfortunately most of the other boards I got come with some kind of rubber dome, but you win some and you lose some.

[alh84001]

Can you post a picture of the NEC board. There were a couple of auctions last week for the full computer+monitor+keyboard combos, and it looked like an mkII SR got the regular non-blue alps keyboard, and another version - MA2 - actually got the blue alps keyboard.

http://page15.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... t469042628
http://page10.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/a ... m159638244

[keycap]

What exactly makes Blue Alps feel better than White Alps? I don't think that a switch-plate can change that much in terms of feel, but maybe I'm wrong.

I've noticed a significant difference between two of my White Alps keyboards. One of them is from ~1989, and the other one is probably from 1992/1993. The 1989 keyboard's White Alps feel much different and they definitely used dry lubricant at some point because there is grey residue on the slider. However, the newer one has a bit more of a rough key-feel and the dry lubricant is not present (this is probably when they switched to POM for the sliders, right?). I have also noticed that there is a different spring in the older one, which definitely resembles the type of spring used in Blue Alps. It looks like it has a gold-tone opposed to the silver-tone spring in the newer White Alps.

So, what I'm trying to ask is, are the very early White Alps comparable to Blue Alps? Here's the difference between my older and newer White Alps sliders/springs:

[Redmaus]

First off the sound is amazing. Like raindrops.

[seebart]

All this has been examined by quite a few people before and the conclusions are similair to what you sum up pretty well here keycap. There are only a few parts and factors that can make Alps SKCM Blue feel nicer. The real interesting part would be to know exactly what kind of dry lube Alps Electric used on Alps SKCM Blue. The quality of the parts were better also like you say a higher quality spring for example. The joke is that the difference between clean "old" complicated Alps SKCM White and Alps SKCM Blue are not huge but they are noticable.

[fohat]

I asked Bob Tibbetts, sometimes considered the guru of the Northgate keyboard, a question about a transplant of blue Alps switches, and got this unexpected tirade about how white and blue are identical:

* * * * * * * * *

Why are you going to all the work and pain to swap the switches? The switches are exactly the same. Take them apart and look at the inside. The only difference is the blue plunger. Unless your 102 was the latest they are the same and I've taken a lot apart. The internet is loaded with "experts that know the blue switch is better". It is a total waste of time, effort and cost. I had a customer a year ago that drove round trip 150 miles + to buy a GL102 Blue switch from me at $225.00 I told him it was a waste of money and proved it to him. I had both white and blue switch GL102's. I took a white and a blue switch, both have the same Alps # on them. Took them apart and showed him that internally they were the same. After he looked at them, he agreed and saved $80.00 The Asian people will pay almost anything for a Blue switch model, I guess some mystical thing. I have no idea though.

Bob

[seebart]

That's interesting fohat, I know that Bob Tibbetts has quite a bit of knowledge on Alps SKCL/SKCM. I do still disagree though. While they are quite similair they are not exactly the same. Also why did Alps Electric even bother with different slider colors then if it was all the same? My guess is it had something to do with production logistics rather than switch feel. Remember that Alps Electric produced some of these in large quantities over extended periods of time.

[Redmaus]

Do you think its a small variation in the thin/thickness of the metal, or the bend in the leaf?

I have always wondered why they switched to white alps instead. Maybe people hated raindrops back then?

[seebart]

Oh Alps Electric was simply cutting production costs down over the years until they ended up with simplified black Alps that actually really feel pretty shitty.

[Redmaus]

Yeah but what made white alps more cost effective? Did the tactile leaf use less metal?

[keycap]

I don't think that White Alps were a cost-cutting measure at all. The same exact tall switch-plates were being used since the Alps SKCC days, and it would've costed a lot to change to short switch-plates, as plastic moulds and all of the other random parts in the switch-plate would be changed; and we all know how "complicated" the switch-plates are. It wouldn't be saving any money to change the switch-plate entirely, so why did Alps change from the tall to short switch-plates with White Alps? They kept everything from Blue Alps except the tall switch-plates, and we don't even know if the tall switch-plate is what gives Blue Alps their legendary key-feel.

[Redmaus]

I think its the click leaf, because I put one in white alps and it felt more like blue alps

[seebart]

Cheaper materials, don't ask me for the details I don't know. When you produce 500.000+ units of something every cent counts. The latter simplified Alps were a cost cutting measure for sure. Why make something less good? Just for fun?

[Chyros]

I asked Bob Tibbetts, sometimes considered the guru of the Northgate keyboard, a question about a transplant of blue Alps switches, and got this unexpected tirade about how white and blue are identical:

* * * * * * * * *

Why are you going to all the work and pain to swap the switches? The switches are exactly the same. Take them apart and look at the inside. The only difference is the blue plunger. Unless your 102 was the latest they are the same and I've taken a lot apart. The internet is loaded with "experts that know the blue switch is better". It is a total waste of time, effort and cost. I had a customer a year ago that drove round trip 150 miles + to buy a GL102 Blue switch from me at $225.00 I told him it was a waste of money and proved it to him. I had both white and blue switch GL102's. I took a white and a blue switch, both have the same Alps # on them. Took them apart and showed him that internally they were the same. After he looked at them, he agreed and saved $80.00 The Asian people will pay almost anything for a Blue switch model, I guess some mystical thing. I have no idea though.

Bob

Yeah, I think you quoted that one before, but frankly it's rubbish. It's obviously not true because they are VISIBLY different. All the parts are just slightly different.

My Omniky Ultra has old white Alps. Still branded, but it did have the gold-tone springs. I immediately noticed the difference; they feel much closer to blue Alps. The sound is still different, but in terms of feel it's fairly comparable. Even since I discovered this I started putting more emphasis on the AGE of the switches rather than the colour of the slider.

The cost-effectiveness was probably the lack of lube. Lube is expensive. The shorter switchplate was probably also cheaper to make. Some people have also reported the click leaf to be different, but I don't know how that was a cost-cutting measure.

[keycap]

Maybe the short switch-plates used a weaker foil membrane or something, in addition to what Redmaus said about the click leafs being degraded in quality. Who knows, a bunch of factors probably make Blue and White Alps different. The Alps series really are complicated, aren't they?

[Chyros]

Yeah they really didn't steal their name xD .

I just wish I knew exactly how to replicate blue Alps. The world deserves these to be in production again.

[seebart]

Yeah they really didn't steal their name xD .

I just wish I knew exactly how to replicate blue Alps. The world deserves these to be in production again.

Just send that e-mail:

http://www.alps.com/e/common/inquiry.html

We'll call them ChyrosAlps then.

[Redmaus]

For the last time, we aren't remaking blue alps thats like the fifth email today about this

[seebart]

For the last time, we aren't remaking blue alps thats like the fifth email today about this

Were & when is that quote from Redmaus? Did someone sign it? They get asked five times a day about this?

You're kidding me right?

[Redmaus]

No I was just joking

[seebart]

No I was just joking

Of course you are but we really need to ask them, I'll start a thread on that when I do.

[guster11]

Oh wow, that's a fantastic deal! Are you going to clean out the switches? If so, check out my video tutorial for that, it might be helpful .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mhmb2kBuwQ

I might, i'd be curios to take one apart. However I need to get the board working first