Brexit: The DT Poll

[Halvar]

There are actually 28 states in the EU. So I'm not totally alone there.

[adhoc]

Before you speak so confidently, you should take a look at your own countries support. You barely have 50%, let alone the entire EU.

And please, don't appear so innocent. Some of us still remember when you tried to force yourself into privatizing drinkable tap water (*shock* some of us still have it) to sell us out to corporations like Nestle - and by extent create monopoly, which in turn had direct funding for your government.

I'm very happy to see the V4 countries and also the UK oppose you. Not all of the opposition has been in the right way (no pun intended), but opposition was necessary due to the shit you're trying to pull off lately.

[kbdfr]

[…] http://yournewswire.com/europe-to-send- ... ion-camps/ <--- camps for people with wrong opinion

Apparently you considered the title of the article as "information" without reading the text that article refers to.
I did, particularly because it is hosted on the EU website and I was afraid there could be a grain of truth in that.
Well, there is not. Not even a grain of a grain of a grain of truth.

The title of the article reads "Europe To Send Conspiracy Theorists To ‘Reeducation Camps’",
in the subheading it says "[…] will be forced to attend ‘reeducation camps’"

• First of all, the text is not EU law, but an unadopted proposal submitted by a committee of experts in 2012.
• And most important:
  - Not a single word about "reeducation camps" there, not even the slightest hint about it.
  - Not a single word about "conspiracy theorists" either, not even the slightest hint about it.
• The whole proposition is about protection against hate crime and hate speech.
  After defining what hate crime and hate speech are, it proposes penal sanctions for those convicted of such criminal offenses (not those with, as you put it, "wrong opinion"), and particularly:
  "Juveniles convicted of committing crimes listed in paragraph (a) will be required to undergo a rehabilitation programme designed to instill in them a culture of tolerance."

That's all. In the whole document, nothing whatsoever about "reeducation camps" anybody would be "forced to attend".

In other words, complete bullshit, as Halvar wrote.

But enough for you to spread without even checking if there is a grain of a grain of a grain of truth to it.

I'm not sure you even read the post and what I wrote with it. I'm also not sure where you took the quotes (I'm guessing they're supposed to quote me? Even though I never wrote that?).

My quotes are put between quotation marks and in italics in their first occurence, and clearly indicate the source (red letters in my quote above). When repeated, they are only put between quotation marks (blue letters above). Where I am quoting you, I clearly indicate: "as you put it".

Here again, you should read and not just take a glimpse.

It's forming a thought police or at least they're working on it. Once you set up the framework, you can easily add "criminal offenses" to the list. A really free community would let their members say whatever they wanted, let people sort themselves out. Don't want to be seen next to someone who says this-or-that? Stop hanging out with him. It would work itself out without involving the government.

So if someone were to say you fuck children, that would be OK for you and you wouldn't want the government to get involved? Or where would you draw the line between that sort of (quoting you) "really free community" letting "their members say whatever they wanted" and a community which protects its members against such things?

[Halvar]

Before you speak so confidently, you should take a look at your own countries support. You barely have 50%, let alone the entire EU.

And please, don't appear so innocent. Some of us still remember when you tried to force yourself into privatizing drinkable tap water (*shock* some of us still have it) to sell us out to corporations like Nestle - and by extent create monopoly, which in turn had direct funding for your government.

I'm very happy to see the V4 countries and also the UK oppose you. Not all of the opposition has been in the right way (no pun intended), but opposition was necessary due to the shit you're trying to pull off lately.

Don't "you" me for arbitrary stuff the German government does.

From one of your links:

"The non-binding resolution [of the EU Parliament against the Polish government] passed with 513 votes for, 142 against and 30 abstentions."

That's a bit more than 50 % I'd say.

[adhoc]

You "you" yourself for what the German government does! I explicitly said I'm opposed to blaming the citizens for stupid shit their governments do (on the US example a few pages ago), but you intentionally opted yourself out of it.

Yeah, and I'm against EU parliament abusing their power over what are supposed to be sovereign countries.

So if someone were to say you fuck children

That is a completely different thing to what is being discussed.

One is a personal insult, the other is having a political view.

[Halvar]

You "you" yourself for what the German government does! I explicitly said I'm opposed to blaming the citizens for stupid shit their governments do (on the US example a few pages ago), but you intentionally opted yourself out of it.

What a bullshit, really.

[seebart]

I'd like very clearly like to say that I do not feel responsible for the German goverment and it's politics that are not voted upon by German citizens BTW! Same for Brussels and EU politics.

[adhoc]

There are actually 28 states in the EU. So I'm not totally alone there.

Is this not you speaking on behalf of Germany? Because that is exactly how that reads.

[kbdfr]

[…]

So if someone were to say you fuck children

That is a completely different thing to what is being discussed.

You see it as "completely different". Roma, Jews, Muslims for example don't.
They are confronted with similar defamatory claims.

[…] Some of us still remember when you tried to force yourself into privatizing drinkable tap water (*shock* some of us still have it) to sell us out to corporations like Nestle - and by extent create monopoly, which in turn had direct funding for your government. […]

Could you provide a link, or at least some more info making it possible to verify your assertion?

[seebart]

Do you feel personally responible for Slovenian politics adhoc? Do you actually influence Slovenian politics on a direct level?

[Muirium]

Well there are just 12 of them, you know. So sometimes he must have the casting vote…

[adhoc]

Do you feel personally responible for Slovenian politics adhoc? Do you actually influence Slovenian politics on a direct level?

Of course not, that is precisely why I do not judge citizens for the things their governments do. Like I said multiple times already. Halvar positioned himself in the position to speak on behalf of his government, so that's why I addressed him as such.

[…]

So if someone were to say you fuck children

That is a completely different thing to what is being discussed.

You see it as "completely different". Roma, Jews, Muslims for example don't.
They are confronted with similar defamatory claims.

[…] Some of us still remember when you tried to force yourself into privatizing drinkable tap water (*shock* some of us still have it) to sell us out to corporations like Nestle - and by extent create monopoly, which in turn had direct funding for your government. […]

Could you provide a link, or at least some more info making it possible to verify your assertion?

Do you speak Slovenian? We were reading articles on how Germany "declares war" on Slovenian tap water for weeks.

Before you speak so confidently, you should take a look at your own countries support. You barely have 50%, let alone the entire EU.

And please, don't appear so innocent. Some of us still remember when you tried to force yourself into privatizing drinkable tap water (*shock* some of us still have it) to sell us out to corporations like Nestle - and by extent create monopoly, which in turn had direct funding for your government.

I'm very happy to see the V4 countries and also the UK oppose you. Not all of the opposition has been in the right way (no pun intended), but opposition was necessary due to the shit you're trying to pull off lately.

Don't "you" me for arbitrary stuff the German government does.

From one of your links:

"The non-binding resolution [of the EU Parliament against the Polish government] passed with 513 votes for, 142 against and 30 abstentions."

That's a bit more than 50 % I'd say.

You know what's bullshit? THIS is bullshit. Relative representatives is also bullshit.

[Halvar]

There are actually 28 states in the EU. So I'm not totally alone there.

Is this not you speaking on behalf of Germany? Because that is exactly how that reads.

No, that's my answer to your "And dictatorship is everyone who doesn't agree with you, right?". You meaning you personally, I presumed.

[adhoc]

Ah, okay, my bad then. I misunderstood you. Sorry.

[Halvar]

Relative representatives is also bullshit.

OK, I'm out of here.

[andrewjoy]

People use the kind of logic that Andy does: refuse the lot of them, a curse on all your houses.
!

I did not say , refuse them all. If someone is a genuine refugee then i have no problem whatsoever in them coming the the EU to be safe i feel its our duty to help.

What is not our duty however is to let insane numbers of people in who have entered the EU illegally.

If you want to come to Europe and your not feeling war or anything else that would make you a genuine refugee then you should have to apply same as i would have to if i wanted to move to the US or Australia. Thats not an unreasonable stance , its not xenophbia or racicm or anything like that, its a simple matter of practicality.

If they are all just feeling a war then why do they try to get to the UK when they are already in France?

[adhoc]

Relative representatives is also bullshit.

OK, I'm out of here.

No doubt you prefer the status, when top 5 countries in the EU can pass ANY law they want for the rest of the Europe and your country is at the #1 spot

[seebart]

I did not say , refuse them all. If someone is a genuine refugee then i have no problem whatsoever in them coming the the EU to be safe i feel its our duty to help.

That's the main problem right there...how to tell who is who. No papers, no communication due to language barrier etc. What to do? Do it like Australia and keep them on prision like islands forever?

[fohat]

Relative representatives is also bullshit.

OK, I'm out of here.

What is "relative representatives"?

[seebart]

Relative representatives is also bullshit.

OK, I'm out of here.

What is "relative representatives"?

Shady politicians?

[kbdfr]

[…] Some of us still remember when you tried to force yourself into privatizing drinkable tap water (*shock* some of us still have it) to sell us out to corporations like Nestle - and by extent create monopoly, which in turn had direct funding for your government. […]

Could you provide a link, or at least some more info making it possible to verify your assertion?

Do you speak Slovenian? We were reading articles on how Germany "declares war" on Slovenian tap water for weeks.

You don't have other than Slovenian sources
A Google search with Slovenia "tap water" Nestlé gave no result coherent with your assertions.
So as a last resort please provide Slovenian links, Google Translate should at least help finding out what it's all about.
To be honest, I think what you wrote is a gross misrepresentation (not necessarily by yourself) of actual facts.
Like in the case of those alleged "reeducation camps for conspiracy theorists"

[adhoc]

What is "relative representatives"?

Number of representatives relative to number of inhabitants of the representatives' country. Unlike in the US congress (where each state gets 2 senators, regardless of size or number of people (+ representatives)), we have effectively made our parliament so that top 5 countries can do as they please with all other EU members.

You don't have other than Slovenian sources
A Google search with Slovenia "tap water" Nestlé gave no result coherent with your assertions.
So as a last resort please provide Slovenian links, Google Translate should at least help finding out what it's all about.
To be honest, I think what you wrote is a gross misrepresentation (not necessarily by yourself) of actual facts.
Like in the case of those alleged "reeducation camps for conspiracy theorists"

How can you be so oblivious to a basic human right such as drinkable water?!?! I thought no extra sources were necessary [on water privatization, not specific to Slovenia], Nestle has started pushing AGAINST public drinkable water in 2000! England has fully privatized drinkable water, as has some parts of Germany and other Europe. They wanted to push the same privatization plans on all smaller countries as well, for example Italy vetoed against it in 2011 (well, Italy sprang to mind, they're not really a small country).

I can give you a million links, but surely you can use Google or? Watch the documentary "Catastroika", where the research on the connections between Germany's government and private sector lusts tied together - the Germany government was disbanded because of it, if I remember correctly (it's been a while).

[fohat]

What is "relative representatives"?

Number of representatives relative to number of inhabitants of the representatives' country.

Oh, proportional representation. The small state/large state conundrum that the Founding Fathers wrestled with so.

The 2-chamber approach has worked moderately well, in the past, but it does give small states far too much influence.

Particularly in terms of the Electoral College, that needs to go away immediately and forever.

[adhoc]

I'm not saying it's perfect, but the EU is set up in a way that the top 5 countries can do whatever they want with the rest of Europe. Is this the correct way of doing things, in your opinion?

[andrewjoy]

I'm not saying it's perfect, but the EU is set up in a way that the top 5 countries can do whatever they want with the rest of Europe. Is this the correct way of doing things, in your opinion?

Nether system is perfect , but i think that the system we have is the lesser of two evils .

[adhoc]

There's only so far you can get with threatening people "do this, or we will take your money".

Looking at the mafia...yeah, nevermind. You're right. It's great (please don't take my money).

[andrewjoy]

I am not saying its good , i am saying its the least shit of the 2 shit options.

[Muirium]

Let's look up the numbers. Oh, what a shocker, you're actually given more MEPs per head than we are.

Slovenia: population 2 million, elects 8 MEPs
Scotland: population 5 million, elects 6 MEPs

Man, that's some horrific underrepresentation you got there. Our tartan hearts bleed for ye!

[cookie]

Well it's not that the EU was forcing the less developed countries to join afaik.
Most countries apply for joining the EU for the benefit of an open market, they blindly thought they will ultimately gain relevance and improve their economic situation and therefore reduce unemployment rates and such. At the end smaller countries fail in competing against the bigger, more advanced and industrialized countries. I mean they can place their products in the rest of EU and vice versa.

When I am on vacation in Croatia I often see regional products get displaced by the well known big brands from Germany which are cheaper/better/more advanced. From a small fish perspective I see no real benefit in being part of the EU because they can't compete with the bigger ones instead they make them highly dependent of the leading countries. It is capitalism on a more global level.

But to get on topic, I think that UK is in a good spot and I'd probably stay in the EU.
The rest, well not so much.

[adhoc]

Let's look up the numbers. Oh, what a shocker, you're actually given more MEPs per head than we are.

Slovenia: population 2 million, elects 8 MEPs
Scotland: population 5 million, elects 6 MEPs

Man, that's some horrific underrepresentation you got there. Our tartan hearts bleed for ye!

That's a problem within UK man...UK has 73 MEPs total otherwise.