Brexit: The DT Poll

[seebart]

OK OK OK, I get it, I'll leave already, jeez... :/

Where you goin' ? Why don't you stay and swear like a sailor!

Well obviously I'm not wanted here, which makes deciding where to go next after my PhD a lot easier :/ .

Actually we'd have to have a referendum on that before anything get's decided so just forget about it and carry on as usual. That's how the EU works, I don't care if technically you're "in it" or not.

[derzemel]

I am curious to see how will Brexit evolve on the long term.
Will this be just a line in the history books?
Or will we have a whole chapter dedicated to it?
I think it will be hard to say, as the importance of such events is heavily dependent on what happens in the next 1-2 years.

If another World conflict will start 5-15 years from now, the Brexit ripples could be very well considered a catalyst.
It already has huge ripples now. In France and the Netherlands there are already calls from the right wing parties to organize EU exit referendums. If they are organized and the pro-exit has the majority, then that could be the end of the EU.

brain fart: Scotland could obtain 100% independence and just when they want to be part of EU, the EU collapses because of the pro-exit camps. Now Scots will really be fuming with England, because the English started it all.

[matt3o]

might be wrong by I feel the people who voted to leave were rather expressing a malcontent, they didn't really want to leave EU or think that their vote actually counted.

[seebart]

This is a big one for Europe and beyond derzemel! Other EU members might get ideas for their own referendum now...

might be wrong by I feel the people who voted to leave were rather expressing a malcontent, they didn't really want to leave EU or think that their vote actually counted.

Too late now.

[BimboBB]

Oh lol I think that ship has sailed a while ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_es ... for_Europe
People still use this scenario to spread fear and scare people into voting for them. Did fail though, years ago.

Did it sailed already? Check again for these words: Frozen. Constitutional Court

And thats because BVerG decided that only the people of Germany (verfassungsgebende Gewalt) are allowed to pass a transfer of constitution. Government isnt allowed to do so.

[7bit]

Representative democracy is broken in many countries

It is in Germany IMO. I was never asked if I want to join the EU or if I want the Euro as a currency! No German citizen was ever "asked"! At least this referendum was a real democratic vote.

OK OK OK, I get it, I'll leave already, jeez... :/

Where you goin' ? Why don't you stay and swear like a sailor!

The basic idea was to make sure that Germany is tied to France and some other European nations (Belgium Nederland, Luxembug and Italy), so there is less chance of yet another war. Another reason was to have a counter weight against the East block.

The same with the Euro. François Mitterrand wanted the common currency to ensure Germany is more tied to France when it was re-uniting with its east part in 1990. Today, the Euro is our currency (the direct follow up of the D-Mark) and Germany (among other nations) profits hugely from the common market and the comparably weak Euro. While for the UK this might be not a too bad thing long term, for us (Germany) quitting the EU would be absolutely stupid.

What I find sad, is that there is no "opt-out of the brexit" option should the EU reform itself or give a longer line for UK. Now, there is no handle left for UK to change anything about the EU and they really will have to struggle hard to make sure they get free market access and other important things to/from EU.

might be wrong by I feel the people who voted to leave were rather expressing a malcontent, they didn't really want to leave EU or think that their vote actually counted.

Yes, seems so. To me it is like the big Watschen (slap into the face) they gave to Brussel and London.

[Wodan]

Did it sailed already? Check again for these words: Frozen. Constitutional Court

However the rejection of the document by French and Dutch voters in May and June 2005 brought the ratification process to an end.

And thats because BVerG decided that only the people of Germany (verfassungsgebende Gewalt) are allowed to pass a transfer of constitution. Government isnt allowed to do so.

Again, sources ?
What I can find about this doesn't mention a referendum at all:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lissabon-Urteil

Das Urteil

Die mündliche Verhandlung fand am 10. und 11. Februar 2009 statt. Am 30. Juni 2009 verkündete das Bundesverfassungsgericht seine Entscheidung.[1] Der Vertrag von Lissabon und das deutsche Zustimmungsgesetz entspreche den Vorgaben des Grundgesetzes.[9]

Das deutsche Begleitgesetz[10] zum Vertrag von Lissabon verstoße jedoch insoweit gegen Art. 38 Abs. 1 GG in Verbindung mit Art. 23 Abs. 1 GG, als Beteiligungsrechte des Deutschen Bundestages und des Bundesrates nicht im erforderlichen Umfang ausgestaltet worden seien.[9]

Where do you get your facts?

[Chyros]

Actually we'd have to have a referendum on that before anything get's decided so just forget about it and carry on as usual. That's how the EU works, I don't care if technically you're "in it" or not.

I just can't believe it. Even the Scots didn't vote for independence in the end. Do the Brits really hate us THAT much, that they can bear us less than the Scots can bear the English?

[seebart]

This is an interesting visual of votes cast (blue stay vs. red leave):

Unbenannt5.JPG (73.54 KiB) Viewed 4689 times

[Wodan]

Free hugs for all Scots!

[BimboBB]

@wodan

from BVerfG page:

Die Wahlberechtigten besitzen nach dem Grundgesetz das Recht, über den Identitätswechsel der Bundesrepublik Deutschland, wie er durch Umbildung zu einem Gliedstaat eines europäischen Bundesstaates bewirkt werden würde, und die damit einhergehende Ablösung des Grundgesetzes „in freier Entscheidung“ zu befinden. Art. 146 GG schafft - wie Art. 38 Abs. 1 Satz 1 GG - ein Teilhaberecht des wahlberechtigten Bürgers: Art. 146 GG bestätigt das vorverfassungsrechtliche Recht, sich eine Verfassung zu geben, aus der die verfasste Gewalt hervorgeht und an die sie gebunden ist. Art. 38 Abs. 1 Satz 1 GG gewährleistet das Recht, an der Legitimation der verfassten Gewalt mitzuwirken und auf ihre Ausübung Einfluss zu nehmen. Art. 146 GG formuliert neben den materiellen Anforderungen des Art. 23 Abs. 1 Satz 1 GG die äußerste Grenze der Mitwirkung der Bundesrepublik Deutschland an der europäischen Integration. Es ist allein die verfassungsgebende Gewalt, die berechtigt ist, den durch das Grundgesetz verfassten Staat freizugeben, nicht aber die verfasste Gewalt.

http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/ ... 00208.html

[snuci]

Just heard the news. I guess that means there's a "fire sale" on keyboards from the UK

In all seriousness, I am quite surprised. I don't think it helped that the odds makers were saying it was a slam-dunk for staying a day before the vote.

[andrewjoy]

In my view , people who did not vote should have been considered stay , most people i have spoken to who did not vote where like , i don't want to leave but i don't want to vote.

Also



Who said westminster and Scotland have nothing in common .

Lets hope there is an emergency meetings of the EU parliament and they revoke article 50 because this is how i feel right now.

[Wodan]

http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/ ... 00208.html

A lot better but still missing the right context:

Soweit die Beschwerdeführer zu III. und IV. den Verlust der Staatlichkeit der Bundesrepublik Deutschland durch das Zustimmungsgesetz behaupten, ergibt sich ihre Beschwerdebefugnis ebenfalls aus Art. 38 Abs. 1 Satz 1 GG.

That section you quoted is the answer to something CLAIMED by one of the people who filed the lawsuit. It is not related to the actual contracts or decision by the government.

Let's make it simple. They claimed that Germany stopped existing after these laws were passed. The court said "If that was the case, we'd have to hold a referendum. But it's not the case."

[BimboBB]

That means that this Lissabon treaty is either not in force or its not a constitution.

[Wodan]

That means that this Lissabon treaty is either not in force or its not a constitution.

How do you explain that Germany as a federal republic has a constitution and each state has it's own constitution?

Two constitutions don't necessarily have to conflict with another or replace another. And the court's verdict clearly states that whatever the Lissabon treaty implements does _NOT_ conflict with the German constitution.

The Lissabon treaty is not in place but it has the form of a constitution and would not conflict with the German constution even if it was in place. Look at the map of countries who have passed this treaty - Germany has given the green light. There is no referendum required and no further concerns except for that fact that it was rejected in several other countries which brought the whole process to a halt.

[7bit]

@wodan
from BVerfG page 1:
All Gypsys are equal!

I suggest you open a new topic.

[cookie]

In my view , people who did not vote should have been considered stay , most people i have spoken to who did not vote where like , i don't want to leave but i don't want to vote.

This makes no sense.

[bubblebobbler]

as someone who at least entertained both sides, I'm so sad.

[7bit]

In my view , people who did not vote should have been considered stay , most people i have spoken to who did not vote where like , i don't want to leave but i don't want to vote.

This makes no sense.

No vote == do what you want, I have no opinoin.

But in parliamental elections, it surely should mean empty seats!

[kbdfr]

http://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/ ... 00208.html

A lot better but still missing the right context:

Soweit die Beschwerdeführer zu III. und IV. den Verlust der Staatlichkeit der Bundesrepublik Deutschland durch das Zustimmungsgesetz behaupten, ergibt sich ihre Beschwerdebefugnis ebenfalls aus Art. 38 Abs. 1 Satz 1 GG.

That section you quoted is the answer to something CLAIMED by one of the people who filed the lawsuit. It is not related to the actual contracts or decision by the government.

Let's make it simple. They claimed that Germany stopped existing after these laws were passed. The court said "If that was the case, we'd have to hold a referendum. But it's not the case."

Wodan, I am happy to see someone who knows how to read a judgment
As a matter of fact, after analysing (as above) constitutional considerations related to the claims of the plaignants,
the BVerfG ruled inter alia as follows:

Mit dem Vertrag von Lissabon wird weder die für die Verfassungsorgane unverfügbare verfassungsgebende Gewalt übertragen noch die staatliche Souveränität der Bundesrepublik Deutschland aufgegeben
[…]
Die Europäische Union erreicht beim gegenwärtigen Integrationsstand auch bei Inkrafttreten des Vertrags von Lissabon noch keine Ausgestaltung, die dem Legitimationsniveau einer staatlich verfassten Demokratie entspricht.

and rejected the complaints.

[seebart]

@wodan
from BVerfG page 1:
All Gypsys are equal!

I suggest you open a new topic.

Agreed! This is BREXIT, not Brexesverfassungsgericht!

[TuxKey]

Congrats UK. Living in The Netherlands were not allowed to have a referendum
Yep i'm not kidding the law has bin ritten so that we can't actually have a democratic vote on the matter.
And i'm not talking about sum banana republic in the middle of no where..!!

if you believe in the EU please watch this and at least be aware of a different view.

And this is the second part... good one..

[seebart]

Congrats UK. Living in The Netherlands were not allowed to have a referendum

Same exact situation as in Germany. No real democracy here.

[Wodan]

Now please do us a favour and GET OUT. I remember how excited I was about the Greek OXI vote and in the end it was all just a giant scam to squeeze more money out of the other EURO countries.

Show some balls and go eat oyster.

[Muirium]

Fuck. It really just happened, eh? Here I was expecting a boring result from the beginning, and instead we're in a realm of pure, unalloyed chaos.

The fun new game for all the family. Spot the EU's future border.

IMG_9197.PNG (174.55 KiB) Viewed 4535 times

Happy independence day, England. We'll be having ours now, ta.

[seebart]

Anything but boring Mu!

Brexit: Nicola Sturgeon says second Scottish referendum 'highly likely'

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-sco ... s-36621030

[chzel]

Wodan our referendum was a travesty...I'll post in depth later, on mobile now!
Happy independence UK, and I hope it turns out well. I feel it won't, but I hope.

[Halvar]

I don't think it helped that the odds makers were saying it was a slam-dunk for staying a day before the vote.

That's actually a very good explanation of what happened. So much for direct democracy! Voters who think they will win anyway stay at home when the weather is bad.

[flabbergast]

Quite interesting to see the vote by age brackets. Baby boomers, you f**k us over once again!