Most Overrated/Underrated Switch or Keyboard?

andrewjoy · 29 Jun 2016, 16:11

cookie wrote: My 2005 HHKB smokes todays keyboards with ease, and it is 11 years old by now!

My 1984 Model F 122 battleship is going just fine too , blows all them topre out of the water!

Laser wrote: Because of DT, I actually avoided MX Browns at first; when I finally got a keyboard equipped with Browns, they didn't feel too bad; when I modded them with 65g springs, the trampoline mod and tall (OEM-profile) POM keycaps, that keyboard became one of my favorites.

Browns are indeed fine when you replace all the crap cherry put into them with quality clone parts

cookie · 29 Jun 2016, 17:22

andrewjoy wrote:
cookie wrote: My 1984 Model F 122 battleship is going just fine too , blows all them topre out of the water!

IBM's Model F 122-key keyboard originally sold for $295 back in 1984 - over $670 adjusted for inflation. Considering that, it's more a gentle breeze than a blow

emdude · 29 Jun 2016, 19:12

Chyros wrote:
czarek wrote: I don't understand bashing MX Browns. They're far from my favourite switch, but tell you what. Cherry MX Brown and its clones (especially Greetechs which are IMO better than original) are the most popular switch we sell at FalbaTech.
You're almost giving the dictionary definition of overrated here .

Yeah, haha, I was going to say this too when I saw czarek's post last night. They're definitely something that is popular or well-regarded among many that some (i.e. us highfalutin DT folks) believe is unworthy of its praise!

That said, I think I would be open to taking another look at them sometime in the future, it would be the only MX switch I could really see myself using though, aside from clones perhaps.

On another note, for as much as people like to bash them (myself included), I think Unicomp keyboards are underrated. From a price and functionality standpoint, they seem to be pretty decent keyboards, despite their QC issues. I wouldn't mind picking up an Ultra Classic for myself sometime in the future.

face · 29 Jun 2016, 19:47

There is no connection between "liked by most people, but not by some enthusiasts" and "broadly overrated" in my mind. If it was sold often ALTHOUGH it was very bad -> that's of course "overrated", but you definitely can't say that they are "very bad". Like in, they buy it because they read that they are good switches but find there totally shit and falling apart when trying them out the first time. That's just not true, they are not bad switches.
And liked even by enthusiasts too, like czarek said. I can see only a few people on DT, GH and reddit that don't find the browns at least ok. Even in this thread there are only a few. There are far more disliking Topre or finding them overrated, if you want to argue that way!

But hey, that MX brown is overrated is a totally legit opinion. I'm ok with that, just wanted to give my 2c to this dictionary matter.

We are all cherry-picking here. But we are picking between the best.

czarek · 01 Jul 2016, 07:36

Totally agree with face here regarding MX Browns. Just because some well regarded people here are saying they're shit, they're not oracles. It doesn't mean they're shit. I don't like them myself, but I do respect others who swear by this switch and don't want anything else. Often those people hate Topre and I see why - Cherry is fast, springy and feels mechanical, while topre is kind of laid back and feels very rubbery, which is definitely not for everyone. People and opinions. Respect them, please.

Also on the Unicomps. For the price, they're steal deals. You're getting original buckling spring keyboard with dye sub PBT keycaps (including space bar) for the price of keycaps set for topre (which comes with ABS space bar). And screw the QC issues. Model Ms are far from perfect. They do have mould marks on keycaps too! I know there are also other blemishes but they're super easy to fix, without any tools required. Also worth noting is the fact that Unicomp cases are ABS, while IBM's original cases were PVC. I'm not sure if it's a cost cutting though, or is it some environmental thing (PVC is toxic when melted under high temperature).

zslane · 01 Jul 2016, 20:42

czarek wrote: I'm not sure if it's a cost cutting though...

Yeah, I'm not sure about the PVC thing specifically either, but in general nearly every compromise in quality made in the history of computer keyboard design/manufacturing is due to cost cutting measures. It's why we don't type on beautiful, high-profile, double- (and triple-) shot sphericals on Hall Effect or Beamspring switches anymore. Most people type on shitty low-profile cylindricals (or chiclets) on shitty membrane switches.

I love the fact that the mech keyboard community has managed to give high-profile, double-shot sphericals a new lease on life. If only it had the marketplace muscle to do the same for Hall Effect or Beamspring switches.

czarek · 01 Jul 2016, 20:48

Thank you very much for high profile sphericals. I prefer low profile (topre/cherry/hi-tec space invader) cylindrical keycaps any time. Tried many high profile sphericals (round 5, troubled minds, topre hi pro, filco hi pro) and it's not for me regardless of switch underneath. I wouldn't call it cost cutting either although it's definitely cheaper to produce those.

emdude · 01 Jul 2016, 20:57

zslane wrote:
czarek wrote: I'm not sure if it's a cost cutting though...
Yeah, I'm not sure about the PVC thing specifically either, but in general nearly every compromise in quality made in the history of computer keyboard design/manufacturing is due to cost cutting measures. It's why we don't type on beautiful, high-profile, double- (and triple-) shot sphericals on Hall Effect or Beamspring switches anymore. Most people type on shitty low-profile cylindricals (or chiclets) on shitty membrane switches.

I love the fact that the mech keyboard community has managed to give high-profile, double-shot sphericals a new lease on life. If only it had the marketplace muscle to do the same for Hall Effect or Beamspring switches.

Was the switch from spherical to cylindrical key caps really a cost-cutting measure? It would seem to me that it was more of an aesthetic/design shift. Manufacturers still made double(+)-shot cylindricals, after all.

Also, you may hang me for this, but I can't say I care much for the aesthetics of high-profile sphericals; they just seem quaint. Don't really care for the profile either, the beam spring one at least. Just my opinion though.

zslane · 01 Jul 2016, 21:39

It is definitely a matter of personal taste. For me, sphericals harken back to a time when Detroit still cared. When keyboards were awesome pieces of engineering, not commodity-level peripherals that add $5 to the cost of a budget-priced desktop computer. Most people don't care one way or the other, and cylindricals are just what everyone under the age of 40 is used to. It's not like the masses choose cylindricals over sphericals; they don't know that sphericals even (still) exist, or realize there is a difference.

Cylindricals won in the marketplace because they rode the wave of the IBM PC's popularity, not because they were intrinsically superior (or more aesthetically pleasing) than sphericals. And, like black keyboard cases, it's pretty much all we're stuck with now unless you are buying a laptop or are one of us mech board nutters who equates "cylindrical" with "mediocrity" (and who go out of our way to buy sphericals).

seebart · 01 Jul 2016, 23:16

Oh I could not agree more with you on this zslane, but it's pretty difficult for someone to comprehend the quality of a 1970's keyboard unless one has actually seen it in person. The build quality has nothing to do with todays hardware. As you know quite a few of us here care very much for that quality and the aesthetic. You know what I mean

:

Spoiler:

bubblebobbler · 02 Jul 2016, 02:13

Chyros wrote: Wrongly downrated:
*Acer switch: why do so many people hate these? I find them quite nice to use. They're not scratchy, they're tactile enough for anyone, and I'd say the clicky noise is pretty decent. They're also by far the easiest to service and repair of any switch I've seen by an order of magnitude.

I really don't like my acer switch board. I've owned 2 Viglen-brand acer boards in the past, and neither have been nice. super hollow feeling switches. part of that could be the build quality of the boards though, only having a plastic 'plate' over the membrane and a thin metal backplate.

I'd say I really disliked mx red + mx brown, but it's possible they simply dont cater to me rather than it being a case of overrating. mx brown's tactility is so minimal it feels pointless, and mx reds are probably too light for my caveman hands.

I actually like the m2 a fair bit, I feel like, though insanely unrefined, it offers something different to the F, where the M feels to me like a lesser experience of that.

Morituri · 02 Jul 2016, 02:24

There are no linear switches I like. Nothing wrong with them for gaming I suppose, but I use keyboards to type. So those Cherry reds and browns, I don't care about so much. Give me the stiff and clicky ones. I prefer Cherry greens, but keyboards populated with Greens are rare; I usually settle for Blues. The only thing the light linear Red switches are good for, IMO, is replacing the stabilizers under the spacebar to make it a little stiffer. Two of them are usually too much though if you have a Green switch for the spacebar; I prefer a blue in the wired middle switch in a spacebar, and reds for stabilizers.

In fact the only "light" keyswitch I care for at all are vintage Alps clicky switches.

Chyros · 02 Jul 2016, 02:59

Morituri wrote: There are no linear switches I like. Nothing wrong with them for gaming I suppose, but I use keyboards to type. So those Cherry reds and browns, I don't care about so much. Give me the stiff and clicky ones. I prefer Cherry greens, but keyboards populated with Greens are rare; I usually settle for Blues. The only thing the light linear Red switches are good for, IMO, is replacing the stabilizers under the spacebar to make it a little stiffer. Two of them are usually too much though if you have a Green switch for the spacebar; I prefer a blue in the wired middle switch in a spacebar, and reds for stabilizers.

In fact the only "light" keyswitch I care for at all are vintage Alps clicky switches.

Tbh I didn't really like any linear switches at all either until I tried out linear Alps xD . Now I use a ZKB-2 at work! If you like really stiff, 78 g Honeywells might be to your liking

.

Hak Foo · 02 Jul 2016, 07:42

emdude wrote: Was the switch from spherical to cylindrical key caps really a cost-cutting measure?

I'm not sure it was solely about costs, if much at all. I heard the big deal was more that cylindrical caps can be covered with stickers easily, and sphericals cannot. This was appealing for customization (it seems like a large number of old PC compatible boards have those coloured dot stickers used for, possibly WordPerfect) and probably allowing a cheap/simple way to do weird localizations an small-batch app-specific keyboards.

Findecanor · 02 Jul 2016, 13:02

Hak Foo wrote: I heard the big deal was more that cylindrical caps can be covered with stickers easily, and sphericals cannot.

Possibly... It was IBM who had the biggest part in making them popular though. I thought that IBM's rationale was that it made it easier to print on keys with dye-sublimation. And there are lots of different IBM keys out there in various layouts.

DEC did manage to print legends in the corners of spherical keycaps, on their LK201 and LK401 series, and those were also made for many different languages and special purposes. I think the LK401's keys could even have been dye-sublimated PBT, but don't quote me on that...

czarek · 02 Jul 2016, 13:57

But hey, when IBM changed from double shots sphericals to dye sub cylidrical, they also went for PBT which is more expensive to work with, right?
Also as far as I know Signature Plastics does offer PBT DSA dye sublimated keycaps so that's not the case either - dye sublimated PBT sphericals are doable, and apparently even more expensive than ABS doubleshots, at least today.
I have a feeling it could be result of some research about ergonomics or something like that. I believe it would be more comfortable to use spherical tops when you hang your hands over the keyboard and press keys directly from the top, but for me when my fingers are at the lever or slightly above the keyboard and fingers are bowing to press the keycaps, it actually is more comfortable to use cylidrical key tops.
But also, for all my live (I'm born in 84, my first computer was Amiga 500 around 1990) I was using cylidrical keys so I'm definitely used and biased towards them. I have tried loving many spherical keys as I really like their looks, although they're just not good for my typing style.

Laser · 02 Jul 2016, 14:08

Everyone stating their switch preference should also post the dimensions of their hand/fingers

zslane · 02 Jul 2016, 17:35

I am curious if there is a correlation between people who don't touch type and a preference for tactile or clicky switches. Is there a confidence issue at play? As in, without the tactility (or audible click), some users can't be sure they've actually typed a key? I've used all three types of switches and can't remember a time when the switch style impacted my typing speed or accuracy one way or the other. I use linears now (MX reds) and very much doubt switching to tactile switches would make any difference in my typing performance.

As for the cost between dyesub PBT and double-shot ABS, there isn't much of a difference when stretched over an entire keyset. It's when you make new legends that the cost of double-shot soars over dyesub.

czarek · 02 Jul 2016, 17:52

Interesting points about touch typing zslane.

I touch type since I learned how to do it properly in primary school. I have relatively small hands (for a man), barely bigger (not always) than my girly friends' and wife's.
I type around 110 wpm, very often using blank keycaps. I do like all sorts of switches, linear, tactile, clicky. I would never be able to chose one switch for live.
I currently have my preferences (or rather favourites) like this:

Clicky: no doubts, buckling spring, I used to prefer model M (my previous model Fs didn't feel all that great), but it changed when I acquired a very nice AT Model F (feels amazing regardless of all the rust on springs - I still can't believe it). This switch was designed as tactile, clicky one from the grounds up and you can feel and hear it. There is no cheating or tricking like in Alps / Cherry (or clones).

Tactile: definitely Topre, rubber domes provide nice native tactility, and keyboards are overall very nicely done, apart from swapping space bar they don't require any mods to be excellent.

Linear: the most tricky one since I do like linear space invaders the most, but I can't use them daily, simply because of lack of keycaps to build a keyboard in a layout I want (HHKB of course). The closest I can get to them using what is available is to me Vintage MX Black with lubed 62G springs and cherry profile thick PBT keycaps. That's the strength of Cherry, you can make it truly yours in a keyboard that is customised exactly to your liking.

This has very little to do with the topic of this thread however, but I just want to show that I'm not a Cherry fan boy by saying MX is underrated. Outside this forum it's not, but here, it definitely is very underrated switch. It really has its strengths. Good luck building beam spring or topre ErgoDox

zslane · 02 Jul 2016, 20:01

For my own part I find the feel and sound of Topre switches quite satisfying, but I don't find the tactility critical to typing performance (FWIW, I've been a touch typer since junior high, and I have small hands as well). I like linear switches because they make typing easy on my fingers and they remind me of the lovely terminal keyboards I grew up on back in the day. I dislike clicky switches because of the noise mostly, so you'll never see me typing on a clicky switch.

I have no doubt there are some very nice Alps linear and tactile switches out there, but since I can't put my keycaps of choice on them, they won't be part of the conversation for me. The only reason Topre isn't dead to me is due to the MX-compatible board they are coming out with. I have a Hi-Pro board (one of the Korean ones with biege keycaps), but I don't use it because I don't like Topre's take on high-profile sphericals (and they aren't my beloved Space Cadets in any case).

As I've mentioned before, I'd dearly love to put some of my SA keycaps onto a Hall Effect or Beamspring board, but that's not going to happen, so I'm just left to dream and wonder "What if..."

Moufinure · 03 Jul 2016, 00:06

andrewjoy wrote: Topre is not overrated, its overpriced for what it is. But they feel very good.

Yes, It's quite good and that's it, but I really don't understand all the rave about that switch.
Really I do prefer Cherry MX a lot more.

terrycherry · 04 Jul 2016, 05:41

Invisius wrote:
fohat wrote:
Invisius wrote:
These tactile yellow clones feel better than all the white, orange and blue ALPS boards I've used.

OK, I have to ask:

What the heck are those tactile yellow clones and where are they found?
Honestly I have no idea! They're from a Chinese marked and built board, with the only English markings shown on the PCB.
It's got a half-backspace and bigass enter, and the FCC ID on the back points to https://fccid.io/JO6RA-1D . They feel like blue ALPS with a chunkier click, metal plate, and decently thick PBT caps even!

Not sure if the legends are pad printed or dye-sub, but here they are:

Great found. I knew this Chinese keyboard with the FCCID very much!
This keyboard was made by YANTAI. Called [AT][CN]海成CT-110.
This company was famous to make the YANTAI switch(which copy the omron B3GS switch)
And this FCCID have sharing for different Chinese keyboard with Alps mount or clone switch, especially Omron B3GS and Yantai switch)
Your keyboard should having some variant switch on Enter and Space bar!
Please disassemble that tactile yellow alps clone switch with somequality photos.
I guess it could be the alps.tw Type T8 or T5.

cookie · 04 Jul 2016, 11:23

Morituri wrote: There are no linear switches I like. Nothing wrong with them for gaming I suppose, but I use keyboards to type. So those Cherry reds and browns, I don't care about so much. Give me the stiff and clicky ones. I prefer Cherry greens, but keyboards populated with Greens are rare; I usually settle for Blues. The only thing the light linear Red switches are good for, IMO, is replacing the stabilizers under the spacebar to make it a little stiffer. Two of them are usually too much though if you have a Green switch for the spacebar; I prefer a blue in the wired middle switch in a spacebar, and reds for stabilizers.

In fact the only "light" keyswitch I care for at all are vintage Alps clicky switches.

If you like very tactile switches you should try out white alps! I used to like MX Blues for their tactility but ALPS put them in shame (in tactility). Also I heard all the best about BS switches, unfortunately never tried one

Moufinure wrote:
andrewjoy wrote: Topre is not overrated, its overpriced for what it is. But they feel very good.
Yes, It's quite good and that's it, but I really don't understand all the rave about that switch.
Really I do prefer Cherry MX a lot more.

As I already wrote, RF/HHKBs (I am not considering TypeHeaven or Novatouch here on purpose) are still one of the best "out of the box" keyboards money can buy. After using HHKBs for few years I have to say that I can't go back anymore, I find Cherry MX switches to be quite scratchy and not as smooth as a Topre switch. The only exception are vintage blacks, which is the only MX switch I actually like but I don't like the ABS caps which comes with it :/
Also you can easily spend the same money on a MX board or even more if you really go nuts. See the ODT boards which are super hard to find and very expensive or the KMAC Happy (Which I love btw.)

Sad thing about Topre is the complexity of the capacitive matrix which makes modding almost impossible.
That is something I highly dislike because I believe that this part of our community is the most important one!
We got amazing custom boards here, a ton of talented people who are doing impressive stuff with MX switches but you won't see much development in Topre land because it is simply too hard to achieve!

I love them all, except for MX brown they are the worst of the worst

Morituri · 05 Jul 2016, 18:53

emdude wrote: Was the switch from spherical to cylindrical key caps really a cost-cutting measure?

Nope. They're injection molded; costs at volume for injection molding are exactly the same.

Spherical is better for fingertip tactile feedback, but it's not a major issue. I think as someone else said it was about being able to print (on flat sheets of stuff) stickers for the keycaps.

Morituri · 05 Jul 2016, 19:06

Oh. Hand sizes. Yeah, that's an issue. My hands are huge. When I put my hand down flat on a surface, the distance from heel to fingertip is about 26 cm. The main reason I started building keyboards was so I could place keys 21 mm apart instead of 19.5. It's only a little bit, but it makes a HUGE difference in ease of typing for me. I don't know if this correlates with my preference for stiff tactile switches though.

Of course I spend a lot of time using standard keyboards anyway because I don't get to use the same computer all the time. But at least on my desktop, I can type all day and my hands don't hurt at the end of the day.

Invisius · 05 Jul 2016, 19:15

terrycherry wrote: Great found. I knew this Chinese keyboard with the FCCID very much!
This keyboard was made by YANTAI. Called [AT][CN]海成CT-110.
This company was famous to make the YANTAI switch(which copy the omron B3GS switch)
And this FCCID have sharing for different Chinese keyboard with Alps mount or clone switch, especially Omron B3GS and Yantai switch)
Your keyboard should having some variant switch on Enter and Space bar!
Please disassemble that tactile yellow alps clone switch with somequality photos.
I guess it could be the alps.tw Type T8 or T5.

Wow thanks for all this info! You were right about the spacebar and enter having variants, those have moderately heavier white alps-style switches. I guess NMB weren't the only ones sharing label IDs between models back then.

I have a couple similar boards with Omron clones, but I'll make a new thread instead of cluttering this one up.

In the meantime, I disassembled the switch for you and made an album. I included better pictures of the lettering in case Tentator wanted to chime in.