(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

[shreebles]

I love the blue, would like to see it with a top plate on, should be more subtle then.
As for the back plate, don't care, as I'm not going to see it after installing it. Just whatever is cheap and durable.

[alh84001]

Top plate

• Black
• Don't care, just make it subtle

Back plate

• Hot dipped in yellow chromate (similar to original F)
• Don't care, just make it subtle

These would be my picks. First picks mimic model Fs, and second picks, if they are cream/pale blue, would mimick model Ms.

[giokkk]

These would be my ideal choices:

Top plate
Black

Back plate
Hot dipped in yellow chromate (similar to original F)

[DMA]

Something not corroding! Corrosion is a bitch on both of mine

[lot_lizard]

Something not corroding! Corrosion is a bitch on both of mine

For sure... any of the finishes we would elect to go with (even if powdercoated) would have some sort of zinc bonding ahead of time. Those original black top plates were just hot-dipped black (think a layer of rust to prevent future red rust), and we have come a long way on that is handled now. Any finish we went with would outlive your grandchildren. I will probably wait a day or two to see if any chimes in with "pink please", and will add a poll to the thread to officially capture. We will run that poll for some period of time, capture the results here, and probably replace it with another poll that helps provide value (vs. a bunch of separate threads for the sake of polls). Appreciate the insight

[DMA]

I will probably wait a day or two to see if any chimes in with "pink please", and will add a poll to the thread to officially capture.

* Pink
* acid fluorescent green

And, as the crown jewel,
* red with those "racing stripes" and A`PEXi logos tiled all around the plates.

[Rimrul]

I'd go with these:

Top plate

• Indusrial SSK Blue (as in the prototypes)

Back plate

• Hot dipped in yellow chromate (similar to original F)

[lot_lizard]

I'd go with these:

Top plate

• Indusrial SSK Blue (as in the prototypes)

Back plate

• Hot dipped in yellow chromate (similar to original F)

This would actually be my preferred combination for the drop-in as well. I would have done for the prototype, but all processing in regards to finishing was done by hand, and I don't have access to personal use of hot dips (without more effort than it's worth)

Back to the sound deadening and consistent hold of all barrels. I think when I have the metal shop make a new SSK top plate in 18 gauge steel (with alterations to the design to compensate for my oversights like AT barrel rotation), I will proceed with the 2 layer foam process, but instead... replace one layer (the layer on the bottom of the top plate, not barrels) with this: http://www.lizardskin.com/sound-control-insulation.html.

I mentioned before, but this stuff really is incredible for the price (a friend has used in his restored muscled car), and has very consistent deadening qualities to Dynamat (much more than foam). As mentioned before, the lizard bit has zero meaning to me (so this is a coincidence), but I really feel like thicker 18 gauge metal, a layer of this to deaden plate ping, and good foam to hold the barrels that lies inside the plate seals (no impact on assembly thickness) is about to be something special. The other option in the works would be this same design with o-rings to secure the barrels even further. As Pyrelink mentioned, assembly now is cake compared, so why not try some hybrid methods. I personally have never used foam with O-rings together because of the nightmare assembly would have been (even with well compressed clamps) using traditional F tabs

[pyrelink]

My vote:

Top plate:

Black
Don't care, just make it subtle

Back plate:

Hot dipped in yellow chromate (similar to original F)
Don't care, just make it subtle

[tentator]

I'd love to have it organge or blue in the top plate and black in the back.. but probably in the end would just not care as long it will last and not corrode

For the PCB I'd vote for 1 and 3 i$: split spacebar and controller on pcb!!! would be great.. and if you will take like the reduced sized things I see around here it shoul maybe fit that area between F keys and 1st row?

[lot_lizard]

I just chatted with Cindy... we may be a lead on some barrels/flippers in bulk that would SIGNIFICANTLY change the timeframe of when we could make phase 1 available (it's the one hang-up). It would eliminate the need for custom phase 1 molds. It is early yet to know if this will all pan out, but if it does, I want everyone to thank Cindy (again, the treasure of the entire site).

I will plan on fronting the cost of the barrels/flippers with a wild a$$ guess at what adoption would be. You will receive the benefit of my up front cost without profit. If for some reason the barrel/flippers fall short of need, I will supplement with Ellipse extra's (at $1 per barrel/flipper... sorry... what it is). All barrel/flippers would be salvaged, cleaned, and assembled (when asked for) by myself. Again... MASSIVE goodness. If we feel the need for new springs across the board, plan on an additional 10 dollars per assembly given labor. I still plan on a-la-carte ordering unless it gets to be nuts. If so, I might just cut it off early. We are several weeks away from making this real with Cindy's help, but it will be a short and sweet group buy for phase 1 (one time) I think.

Also, I received some preliminary quotes from my machine shop, and you will be pleased. This includes powdercoating, and it is about 10 dollars an assembly cheaper than I expected. 200 +/- 25 dollars on average per SSK/101-key is looking VERY doable at this point with REAL F switches (again... thank Cindy). Fingers crossed, because until I receive, this is all wishful thinking. Again, I will make a cost breakdown in the group by showing supply/demand breakdowns, but with Cindy's help, and my upfront covering, it will be less of a cost curve than before since my cost barrel/flipper costs are now static

[Rimrul]

I'd love to have it organge or blue in the top plate and black in the back.. but probably in the end would just not care as long it will last and not corrode

Something not corroding! Corrosion is a bitch on both of mine

For sure... any of the finishes we would elect to go with (even if powdercoated) would have some sort of zinc bonding ahead of time. Those original black top plates were just hot-dipped black (think a layer of rust to prevent future red rust), and we have come a long way on that is handled now. Any finish we went with would outlive your grandchildren.

I think corrosion protection is in everyones best interest here.

[Techno Trousers]

Great news about the pricing, lizard. If need be, I have two F-122s stripped down ATM, and based on the price I paid for them, the barrels and flippers are worth approximately $.45 each. So you can add 244 barrels and flippers into your mental pool at that rate, and I can send them if/when needed. Actually, I also have a spare XT that I could throw in as well. Those barrels and flippers would be worth about $.38 apiece. Sounds more expensive than Cindy's haul, but better than Ellipse's.

About the "lizard skin" coating... would it be worth applying that to the top of the bottom plate? Seems like that should deaden more sound than on the bottom of the top plate, and might provide some insulation between the PCB and bottom plate.

[lot_lizard]

Great news about the pricing, lizard. If need be, I have two F-122s stripped down ATM, and based on the price I paid for them, the barrels and flippers are worth approximately $.45 each. So you can add 244 barrels and flippers into your mental pool at that rate, and I can send them if/when needed. Actually, I also have a spare XT that I could throw in as well. Those barrels and flippers would be worth about $.38 apiece. Sounds more expensive than Cindy's haul, but better than Ellipse's.

About the "lizard skin" coating... would it be worth applying that to the top of the bottom plate? Seems like that should deaden more sound than on the bottom of the top plate, and might provide some insulation between the PCB and bottom plate.

Appreciate the offer. I might take you up on it pending the number of boards we need. For the sound deadening, it sounds odd, but it works as well regardless of the side it is applied to. It certainly makes sense to have on the bottom plate as well, but for it, we would apply to the bottom to make sure the surface of the PCB remained as true as possible (it's a very textured material). After trying with with top plate (assuming it has impact), we can discuss trying on the bottom of the bottom plate, but it will then be visible. I like the idea though

[lot_lizard]

Poll officially created. This will run for a few days, but the timeframe has been tightened based on Cindy's barrel/flipper find for us, and quotes received for metal processing. I will try to get back to fix the final version of the plans so that we can get a final quote from our metal friends (they are minor tweaks based on case fitting, think <.5mm), and will publish the promised hardened plans then. If you have voiced a color opinion thus far, please go back and do officially as part of the poll. The more votes the better, but be respectful as these drive real choices

[Techno Trousers]

Voted!

[idollar]

Voted

[giokkk]

Voted

[andrewjoy]

Voted,

also sorry if i am being a bit dim , will this be available in full sized as well as SSK ?

[Phenix]

I also liked the Blue top very much!
For back shreebles is right, we wont say it once assembled

[lot_lizard]

Voted,

also sorry if i am being a bit dim , will this be available in full sized as well as SSK ?

Not dim at all, I'm too vague. The plan would be that a subset of these color choices (maybe even all) would be available for both. When I go in to negotiate pricing, the more options often means higher prices, but not always. Sometimes the predominant option is the "discount", and anything off that is ~5 dollars more, regardless of the number of variations. I will just have a series of polls to help them have an idea of what actually might be in the pipeline. We are already pretty small on choices compared to many non-keyboard related work, so that helps our cause.

The powdercoater is a separate business from the metal shop, but is right down the road. The owner and employees are also very close friends of mine (hunt with, etc), so we will be thrown a bone there as well given our numbers are small (won't impact their schedule much). We are about to get domestic work done (with supervision) for prices comparable to China when you account for shipping. It's goodness

[Rimrul]

If you find some time for this, could you give a short overview over the phases and a rough estimaste on the time frame here and/or on page 1? From what I have gathered phase 1 is "just the drop in replacement" for fullsize/SSK Model Ms in ISO and ANSI without Windows keys, and has almost completed the prototype phase. Phase 2 seems to be additions and changes for more flexibility. This apparently includes the following features:

• Controller options
• Split spacebar
• Windows/Command/Super/Meta/GUI keys
• potentially M122 support
• flat floating case

[lot_lizard]

From what I have gathered phase 1 is "just the drop in replacement" for fullsize/SSK Model Ms in ISO and ANSI without Windows keys, and has almost completed the prototype phase. Phase 2 seems to be additions and changes for more flexibility. This apparently includesthe following features:

Everything you mentioned about phase 1 is correct, with the exception that winkeys will be there for both the SSK and full size. Phase 1 is all about replacing the assembly (the guts) to be F like while continuing to use your existing M case and keys. The only remaining design aspects outside of mild tweaks on my end are updating the PCB to use a .1 pitch ribbon cable, and trying out the mini xWhatsit that WCass put together to fit the existing controllers form factor. Time frame is not entirely known, but think a couple of months for a one time group buy. At this point, we have very few unknowns to account for.

Phase 2 is currently in a "god knows" state yet. Curved, flat, semi-curved... No idea. Something new and novel that would be all original parts (including case). It will be minimal/compact/streamlined though... That I do know. I am sure it is months away yet.

I will try to make time to clean up the OP's to make this all more clear. We have been adapting a little over time, and the story at the beginning needs some tweaks to be clear.

[lot_lizard]

Also... I should note, this group buy turn around will be atypically rapid for something of this size. All manufacturing would be done locally to me, the switches would already be in hand, etc. The only wait times would be the PCB production (usually quick), controller (usually quick), and the assembly time if you chose that option. I will put together some sort of construction process thread if folks want to take that on themselves to save a little money and get the parts a little earlier. I'm not sure just yet how to handle the assembly process in bulk, but might have some Midwest US meet-up of several of us over a weekend to crank them out (as many as we could). Again... It really depends the numbers of people wanting assembly. I will have a poll about that as well so we could plan ahead. If folks are interested in meeting up to help assemble, let me know.

Maybe do something fun like having some rubber stamps of your avatar so you can tag the assembly sticker that Techno put together. Simple cheap touches

[Rimrul]

But phase 2 would still include the option to just replace the inner assembly of an existing Model M?

[Spaceman1200]

Man, your progress has been crazy, Will the first round support full size Model M cases for transplant goodness?

[Rimrul]

From what I have gathered phase 1 is "just the drop in replacement" for fullsize/SSK Model Ms in ISO and ANSI without Windows keys, and has almost completed the prototype phase. Phase 2 seems to be additions and changes for more flexibility. This apparently includesthe following features:

Everything you mentioned about phase 1 is correct, with the exception that winkeys will be there for both the SSK and full size. Phase 1 is all about replacing the assembly (the guts) to be F like while continuing to use your existing M case and keys.

[lot_lizard]

Will the first round support full size Model M cases for transplant goodness?

Right... I will need to finish painting, assembling, and test it (will add some photos). We won't proceed until it is proven. Should be another week or so assuming no problems await.

But phase 2 would still include the option to just replace the inner assembly of an existing Model M?

Phase 2 would be something new altogether, at least that is the current plan. There is a possibility that enough of the new parts would overlap that we could make another run at Phase 1, but I wouldn't count on it. The plates will be entirely different (likely the finishes), PCB will be modified quite a bit, potentially different controller, etc. I would plan on phase 1 being the only run to produce the true drop-in, but again Phase 2 in the end might be more similar to Phase 1 than what's in my head and it could work (not ruling it out, but currently not in scope). I will publish all the plans for phase 1 if anyone ever wanted to run another group buy though.

EDIT: Thanks everyone for participating in the vote btw. It makes me more confident of the choices in the end

[HAL]

I like where this is going

[lot_lizard]

Great news about the pricing, lizard. If need be, I have two F-122s stripped down ATM, and based on the price I paid for them, the barrels and flippers are worth approximately $.45 each. So you can add 244 barrels and flippers into your mental pool at that rate, and I can send them if/when needed. Actually, I also have a spare XT that I could throw in as well. Those barrels and flippers would be worth about $.38 apiece. Sounds more expensive than Cindy's haul, but better than Ellipse's.

One last post for a bit, and I will stop bombing this thread to give folks a chance to digest. I should have been more clear talking about this Cindy haul to help us. The barrel/flipper pricing would be very similar to what you mentioned above that you paid. The issue we were going to struggle with would have been finding enough switches in bulk to actually do this without having to produce our own new ones or reach into Ellipse's extras. This is all still pending, but if it works out, we could have somewhere in the neighborhood of 9,000 switches to work with for this project through a series of F122, Bigfoot, and XT's. I would take the barrels/flippers from these boards, clean them, and then when it came time to send out your orders, I would be getting rid of all of these legacy F keyboards with your orders. I am not sure if this is just random selection yet or what (there will be less legacy boards than new boards based on switch counts per), but I don't want these donors going to the shredder for this project. So some of you will end up with an F122, XT, Bigfoot along with your order (it won't have switches, but maybe you decide to do something with it later). The selection would probably be weighted towards US domestic users to not hit you folks across the pond with extra shipping, but in the end... you are possibly getting a "free" legacy F along with everything here.

For those of you that already have switches, you would be able to order the board ala-carte without switches and either build the assembly yourself, or you could optionally ship the switches to me if you wanted us to assemble the unit for you. We are a bit away from this yet... but just wanted to make this part aware (it is certainly a unique group buy because of this concept).

Again... we are a few weeks away yet from even starting the group buy, but just trying to prep everyone of the nuances if they work out.