F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse · 15 Jul 2016, 03:21

The F77 die cast case is 5.14lbs and the original is 4.37 lbs, so yes the remaining difference may be in the density of the inner assembly steel.

lot_lizard · 15 Jul 2016, 03:22

fohat wrote: ↑I don't have a 77 but I do have a 107 and the case is surprisingly light. When I had it shot blasted at the shop, the guys were rather insulting at its low quality and inconsistency. They said that was why there was so much streaking and spotting.

Oooph. There is a LOT of aluminum in that. Surprising. It's obvious Ellipse's has substantially more zinc. Again... Kudos to a great design and well ran project. Looking forward to the F77. Thanks for the great pic Fohat. Really puts it in context

LewisR · 16 Jul 2016, 03:41

How much weight might be too much for these, I wonder? Do you think there was a good reason IBM put so much aluminum in their's? Or is an extra lb. better overall? If nothing else, I would think the feel of typing would be better the more dense the shell, but it might become a bit of a nuisance to move around, maybe? But could there be a "pure typing experience" that demands the heavier shell?

I speak from lack of experience with such heavy board. Maybe the aluminum case is what I should get if I am concerned? I suppose I could simulate it using some weights and a similar sized box of some sort.

Ellipse · 16 Jul 2016, 04:14

I wonder if a heavier case will dampen or enhance the clickiness, resonance, and other sounds of the Model F?

LewisR in my experience the lighter the metal / the lower the density of the metal, the less expensive it is - I got a quote for aluminum and for zinc and the aluminum material costs less. That may have impacted IBM's decision making not to use as much of more dense zinc.

LewisR you can also get the aluminum ultra compact case separately if you'd prefer to switch sometime in the future. All parts are interchangeable, save the bottom inner assembly which is included with all extra aluminum case orders. I prefer the more solid keyboards that will not slide around your desk or flex when you are typing.

Elrick · 16 Jul 2016, 04:28

Ellipse wrote: ↑I prefer the more solid keyboards that will not slide around your desk or flex when you are typing.

Same here, PLUS is a perfect defensive weapon when called upon

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Phenix · 16 Jul 2016, 19:56

Just to clarify: '
If I order an HHKB, can I change the layout myself oneday to ISO or ANSI (like its possible with normal Ms/Fs)

Tuntematon · 16 Jul 2016, 20:02

I'm not sure if this was addressed already, how is the spacebar weighting on these?

alh84001 · 16 Jul 2016, 20:17

Phenix wrote: ↑Just to clarify: '
If I order an HHKB, can I change the layout myself oneday to ISO or ANSI (like its possible with normal Ms/Fs)

You could do it for all the keys, except the right shift + 1u key. That will have to stay split. It only makes a difference visually, as right shift is never pressed so far on the right where that 1u key is.

Ellipse · 16 Jul 2016, 23:18

Correct alh84001 - the HHKB split right shift layout uses a different PCB, inner foam, and top inner assembly. The only difference between the split right shift barrel arrangement and the regular barrel arrangement are the two barrels of the right shift key.

Tuntematon the spacebars have no different weighting than the rest of the keys. In my experience Model F non-AT/XT space bars are much lighter to the touch and have smoother travel than many Model M space bars. The AT/XT space bars are much heavier unless you modify their metal stabilizer as described on another DT thread.

Ellipse · 16 Jul 2016, 23:18

Would any of the ultra-compact case fans be interested in ordering a heavier zinc ultra-compact case of the same dimensions and design? Everyone's ultra compact case will still be aluminum - this is not changing. Just if anyone was interested in an even more solid keyboard case and prefers the ultra compact case design.

Phenix · 16 Jul 2016, 23:26

Will the prize change then?

Ellipse · 16 Jul 2016, 23:52

Yes it might cost a little more due to the higher cost of zinc vs. aluminum - I am not sure yet.

lot_lizard · 16 Jul 2016, 23:54

Ellipse wrote: ↑Would any of the ultra-compact case fans be interested in ordering a heavier zinc ultra-compact case of the same dimensions and design? Everyone's ultra compact case will still be aluminum - this is not changing. Just if anyone was interested in an even more solid keyboard case and prefers the ultra compact case design.

My vote would be 100% yes (assuming the prices are comparable). Given how much zinc you are getting in your zamak, a bead blasting with a medium glass would be LOVELY.

Hypersphere · 17 Jul 2016, 01:45

Ellipse wrote: ↑I wonder if a heavier case will dampen or enhance the clickiness, resonance, and other sounds of the Model F?

LewisR in my experience the lighter the metal / the lower the density of the metal, the less expensive it is - I got a quote for aluminum and for zinc and the aluminum material costs less. That may have impacted IBM's decision making not to use as much of more dense zinc.

LewisR you can also get the aluminum ultra compact case separately if you'd prefer to switch sometime in the future. All parts are interchangeable, save the bottom inner assembly which is included with all extra aluminum case orders. I prefer the more solid keyboards that will not slide around your desk or flex when you are typing.

Ellipse, it is good to know that the "ultra compact" case includes the inner assembly, so that it would be possible to switch from the standard heavy-duty case to the ultra compact without buying an entire extra keyboard.

Regarding the ultra compact case, would this be of comparable stiffness and heft to something like a TEX CNC aluminum case? If so, given that those cases do not flex and, with rubber feet, they do not slide around on the desk, I would think that the ultra compact F62 or F77 would likewise not flex or slide around on the desk. Is this so?

Ellipse · 17 Jul 2016, 01:50

Hypersphere I don't have prototypes yet of the ultra compact case so I'm not sure. The ultra compact cases are expected to be at least 2 mm thick on each side so I do not expect them to flex. The bottom piece is going to be 1 mm thick and the top piece will be 6 mm or so thick.

LewisR · 17 Jul 2016, 05:41

Ellipse wrote: ↑Would any of the ultra-compact case fans be interested in ordering a heavier zinc ultra-compact case of the same dimensions and design? Everyone's ultra compact case will still be aluminum - this is not changing. Just if anyone was interested in an even more solid keyboard case and prefers the ultra compact case design.

It might be a good middle ground. Because I would like to sometimes use the keyboard in my lap and change positions with it, something 2 lbs. heavier than my XT might be too cumbersome for my purposes. However, I might think of the pure aluminum case as being not dense enough because I would like a more dampened sound as well (this is one reason I don't like all aluminum PC cases, as they resonate sound too much for me). It's an interesting idea. As it stands now, I may just get the aluminum case just because I find my XT already a bit cumbersome

LewisR · 17 Jul 2016, 06:02

By the way, Ellipse, thanks for taking the time to respond to all these inquires and such. This type of project would overwhelm me completely and it's admirable that you're able to take it all on.

Ellipse · 17 Jul 2016, 19:09

$120,000+ in orders so far (including shipping)!

Here's the order breakdown for HHKB split right shift vs. standard style shift: about 114 split right shift keyboards ordered out of 265 keyboards ordered so far (43% of keyboards ordered up to now will be HHKB style split right shift).

alh84001 · 17 Jul 2016, 20:41

Would you mind providing info on F62/F77 split, and how many of the total F62s are split right shift ones?

Ellipse · 17 Jul 2016, 20:54

sure - 124 F62s, of which 61 are split right shift (49%)

So that leaves 141 F77s, of which 53 are split (38%)

Phenix · 19 Jul 2016, 00:38

another question regarding layout: I assume it wont be possible to change layout oneself from normal to Scumys layout?
(I think its same with hhkb - other pcb+inner assembly)

Ellipse · 19 Jul 2016, 00:40

Correct Phenix but you can also buy an extra inner assembly if you wanted to be able to have his layout option some time in the future.

Phenix · 19 Jul 2016, 00:41

Ok, thanks for clarifying.
Btw: will it be possible to buy 1. 75u unstepped caps at their own?

Ellipse · 19 Jul 2016, 00:44

Yes later on, though I don't have pricing yet. They will not be cheap as I need to cover mold costs.

Phenix · 19 Jul 2016, 00:45

But if one orders HHKB+caps they will be included?

Ellipse · 19 Jul 2016, 00:52

Yep that's right.

Ludovician · 21 Jul 2016, 17:56

Ellipse wrote: ↑Would any of the ultra-compact case fans be interested in ordering a heavier zinc ultra-compact case of the same dimensions and design? Everyone's ultra compact case will still be aluminum - this is not changing. Just if anyone was interested in an even more solid keyboard case and prefers the ultra compact case design.

Oh, hell yes.

Ellipse · 22 Jul 2016, 16:27

An update - the PCBs are expected to go into production next week. Everyone is getting the compact xwhatsit controller that uses the standard 0.1" pitch ribbon cable.

Ludovician · 23 Jul 2016, 11:06

What does the timeline currently look like, by the way?

Ellipse · 23 Jul 2016, 11:23

More production delays unfortunately. The factory has another 1-2 months of production time remaining, plus another month for sea mail shipping from China and then a few weeks for me to test and ship out each keyboard (over $120,000 in orders so far!). Some people who really want it quicker are paying $75 per keyboard extra to have it shipped from China to me by DHL Express instead of sea mail (about 1 week from China to me).