New Macbook Pro with Touch Bar

[chuckdee]

(considering you must at least upgrade the SSD to 512 to do anything serious).

This is a huge exaggeration. 256 GB is plenty of storage for all kinds of “serious” uses. I’ve had a laptop with 256 GB storage for years and years with no problem.

Just offload your terabytes of extra data to an external drive.

Same here. In fact, on my surface currently, I've gone with 128, and 128 on an SD card, and it's working better than I ever thought- for a lot less than trying to cram it into the machine. My wife is a creative, and she works off of her external- it's a lot better than she could have gotten an internal for at that price, and it's not inhibiting her in any way. Her photoshop and lightroom indexes and catalogs are on the external, and it just required a minor change in mindset. I think most that think that they need the space internal just haven't looked at it in a different way.

[chuckdee]

This is a huge exaggeration. 256 GB is plenty of storage for all kinds of “serious” uses. I’ve had a laptop with 256 GB storage for years and years with no problem.

I'm sorry, not for the way I work. I can't offload all my data every time I need to work on a 1080p footage. Not to mention you can't offload virtual machines (which are 7-20gb each).

My virtual machines are just that- virtual. I don't keep them on my main machine, but rather on a farm. I could have it on my machine... but that limits me to the space on the machine. And that makes it inaccessible when I take the machine offline. Just a different way of working, I suppose, and all ways are just as viable. But being able to get to my farm from any machine has changed the way I work for the better.

[face]

Will we ever reach a tipping point in which the consumers are not willing to pay the price premium for Apple devices? Personally, I have. But I am not the typical consumer, so I don't expect a revolution. Maybe the developer crowd will start moving away, who knows.

They have reached the point for me too. The new Macbook Pro with almost similary computing power than my 2015 Version costs about 2250€, which is a few hundred more than I paid for my last one. And I thought 1700€ was hell of a lot already. Now they haven't even noticeably upgraded the CPU, although there is Kaby Lake out there. What the heck? I would have upgraded to add additional 4k display to come home with the one-cable-plug-and-play-solution thunderbolt 3, but I don't know why I should pay this much for something that does effectively the same as my current one. I can't afford this thing and the display. And without a new Macbook makes no sense for me. I can't even connect that much stuff to it in the real world! USB 3.0 sticks are rarely seen here already, I have never encountered something with USB C. I don't see a reason to upgrade besides that it looks nicer.

Also, it is even thinner. Shall we build metal cases for this stuff so they don't bend?! My current Macbook is already crunching... I am wondering how the new macbook will hold up. My iPhone 6 just recently bent through normal use.

Great, just driving apple against the wall. If you are loosing the students, you are loosing the future creatives and professionals - one uses what they are used to.

[jacobolus]

Also, it is even thinner. Shall we build metal cases for this stuff so they don't bend?! My current Macbook is already crunching... I am wondering how the new macbook will hold up. My iPhone 6 just recently bent through normal use.

No idea about notebooks, but note that the last 2 generations of iPhones use a different aluminum alloy and a sturdier internal structural design, and they are now significantly more difficult to bend.

[Wodan]

My iPhone 6 just recently bent through normal use.

... define "normal use" ...
If it's really "normal use" chances are good that you're still within the 24 months of Gewährleistung and you can return it to the merchant.

[Beyondsix]

I hate the idea of that touch bar. You HAVE to look at it. Not very tactile.

[vivalarevolución]

Anyway, since this is a keyboard forum, let’s talk about input devices instead of griping about exchange rates.

https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/sta ... 3681239040

Um, this is Offtopic-thority, input devices are simply one stop along the rambling journey. It will go where it goes.

[vivalarevolución]

I hate the idea of that touch bar. You HAVE to look at it. Not very tactile.

When you are using the typical function keys on a MacBook, do you look at those? Because I sure have to do so.

[alh84001]

If it had some kind of ForceTouch implementation, where it would give you haptic feedback when you slide over it, I would still be slightly sceptical.

There's also an issue of different usage paradigms. Usually you work with trackpad, but then you use touch bar more as a touch screen, especially with gestures. Now, it's pretty different, but I know I hated going back and forth between Surface Pro and MBP, since I would end up touching MBP's screen after longer sessions with Surface Pro. I would even think it had been better if you could use Touch Bar with trackpad/mouse pointer, where it would be like a second small screen. That way you wouldn't need to switch from trackpad mode to touch bar mode, you probably wouldn't need to leave the home row, you get force touch haptics out of the box, and you're not obstructing view on that narrow bar with your finger/palm. OTOH, what do I know.

As for pricing, I think that battery autonomy almost makes up for it. Almost. Lack of ports on the other hand is completely inexcusable in something called both Mac and Pro.

[Julle]

So, each and every one of these new Macbooks has the SSD storage soldered on the motherboard. Even the most expensive model. That's messed up. That's the kind of "fuck you, consumer" attitude I've grown to expect from Apple. Basically, if your flash storage chip dies, you're fucked. The worst case scenario is that they've implemented some "security precaution" that prevents third party repair shops from soldering on new storage chips, in which case you'll have to settle for the solutions you get from a Genius bar where you either pay half the value of your device for a new motherboard or get a new computer.

I hope other laptop manufacturers don't follow suit, I don't know how many of Apple's competitors already do this (I know the fucking useless OLED strip is going to be on every damn PC laptop within the next year). They could have designed these machines with an M.2 connector and achieved the same thickness and performance.

But what the hell, who cares about sustainability. End of old man rant.

[vivalarevolución]

A lot of laptop manufacturers are going with soldered on components rather than easily swappable and accessible components. Apple has been moving in this direction for years and I think all their Mac devices are not user upgrade friendly at this point. Soldering these components to the motherboard allows for thinner devices, which appeals to more people than not. Despite the relative ease of swappable RAM or an SSD on a compatible device, most consumers are hesitant to do so.

Oh yea, sustainability. E-waste is and will continue to be a huge problem as long as we have devices that are intended to last until the next upgrade cycle.

[Findecanor]

Apple did use proprietary interfaces for SSDs and memory even before they were soldered on ...
Not that that would excuse anything.

Also, it is even thinner. Shall we build metal cases for this stuff so they don't bend?! My current Macbook is already crunching... I am wondering how the new macbook will hold up. My iPhone 6 just recently bent through normal use.

People have already been ridiculing the thinness race for years by now.
This will have "up to" ten hours battery life. Meanwhile, MS Surface Book released the day before sports sixteen.

Now they haven't even noticeably upgraded the CPU, although there is Kaby Lake out there.

BTW. Quad-core Kaby Lake is still not out.

[face]

My iPhone 6 just recently bent through normal use.

... define "normal use" ...
If it's really "normal use" chances are good that you're still within the 24 months of Gewährleistung and you can return it to the merchant.

It was in the front pocket of my trousers and it bit by bit bend. Unfortunately, I am out of the Gewährleistung... Though you have to proof that it isn't your fault after 6 months too.

[rddm]

Well for me I think next computer will be Xiaomi Air 13 + Elementary OS. Well I can buy 1 more SSD for xiaomi and a powerbank. And still don't get to 1000€

[webwit]

If only they hadn't saved on the screen resolution...

[face]

I wouldn't want a higher resolution, speaking for the 13 inch. That just draws energy from the battery and isn't helping - the retina display is more than fine. 4k just drains your battery even faster.

[vivalarevolución]

Well for me I think next computer will be Xiaomi Air 13 + Elementary OS. Well I can buy 1 more SSD for xiaomi and a powerbank. And still don't get to 1000€

I've been using Elementary OS on one of my laptops, I don't recommend it because it still has some bugs that need polishing. Also, if you care about window management, you will be frustrated. In addition, too much of the screen is taken up by various menu bars, which causes you to lose valuable screen real estate towards the top of the screen.

Now if you have been using Elementary OS and like it, whatever, I will stop talking.

[caligo]

I guess it could be a neat way to show contextual controls that do more than a button could, e.g. sliders. The Lenovo X1 gen. 2 only had buttons as far as I can tell, so there's at least something more here than just making the function keys contextual. Then again, could they not do that by just having the actual screen have touch sensitivity? Guess that would make it too similar to an iPad.

What's more interesting is that it's supposedly basically an Apple Watch, with its own CPU and barebones OS. So in theory it could run while the rest of the computer is in sleep mode, displaying things like battery level and notifications. But I'm curious what they'll do to make it more than a gimmic. I have a hard time seeing professionals preferring this to proper physical keys and muscle memory – and besides, aren't there lots of non-contextual things like volume and backlight that people usually want to be able to access no matter what program they're currently running?

[face]

You can still access this stuff from everywhere I think. They just hop to the right side of the bar.

[webwit]

It is conceptually, in product marketing and design, a ribbon. With that I mean that you have a product with different generations, and to sell the next generation you need better and new things. Ideally revolutionary things, things that make people want to buy the newest generation. The problem is, if you don't have a revolutionary thing, you have to use something else to distinguish the product from the previous generation, to set it apart. And you end up with something which isn't necessarily better (maybe it is, it needs to be proven, but it's not revolutionary in any account), but it's different. Such a "ribbon" is a sign that they didn't have anything better. Apple has gone a long way, from releasing revolutionary products, to trailing Android phones in features and trailing Microsoft (Microsoft!) in software design and now hardware as well. Tim Cook simply isn't the guy to drive innovation like Jobs was. Microsoft for all their past and current failings are much more interesting with Nadella at the wheel.

[seebart]

It is conceptually, in product marketing and design, a ribbon. With that I mean that you have a product with different generations, and to sell the next generation you need better and new things. Ideally revolutionary things, things that make people want to buy the newest generation.

Apple has milked the ribbon marketing approach to the max, it's not working so well for them anymore.

Tim Cook simply isn't the guy to drive innovation like Jobs was. Microsoft for all their past and current failings are much more interesting with Nadella at the wheel.

Either way I bet that 3D idea that M$ is pushing now will fail more than the whole Windows tile idea which only made sense for their touchscreen products.

[webwit]

Yes but they are trying with big concepts, they are moving. And when they fail, they dismiss what they tried or learn and improve and move on. And then they are somewhere else. It's more interesting.

[seebart]

Yes but they are trying with big concepts, they are moving. And when they fail, they dismiss what they tried or learn and improve and move on. And then they are somewhere else. It's more interesting.

They really have to go that way, anything more passive would be disastrous, and of course they can $$$ afford to take the risks. Amazing how M$ failed with windows phone, I know someone who had one of their phones and actually liked it.

[webwit]

I don't care if they fail I hope so as they moved into the data collection business and because of their backdoors for the NSA and other agencies. Windows Phone however has been most interesting, I applaud them for it, it's a big success for me (despite the business failure). Google basically first copied the iOS look and feel and then expanded upon it. Meh, tame. Microsoft created a whole new paradigm and came with tiles and flatness (which iOS started to copy). On the desktop, they threw away Aero (which MacOS started to copy) and went the whole way. It takes a whole lot of balls and innovation to do that, and it's impressive they managed such decisions in such a big and inflexible company. Like I said I don't care if something fails, it's part of the game, but it's evident that mindset is already paying back in a bigger scope of having to be an innovative company in these times, when they're no longer the monopolist. MS is much more fun when they are jumping about.

[chuckdee]

MS is much more fun when they are jumping about.

I think, more to the point, MS is much more fun when they have someone at the wheel that realizes they need to jump about. Risk averse starts at the management level. And for years, they've been risk averse, paying more attention to the stock price and dividends now rather than what they could be.

[axtran]

Yeah. I can't swallow the price of the new MacBook... I ended up with a T460p, i7-6820HQ, 192gb SSD (upgradable), 8gb RAM (upgradable), and the 14" 2560x1440 display for $879.99 USD. Add to that the tactile keyboard (there's a lottery to get lucky with the better of the two OEMs) but I'll take that way over the shitty butterfly fake-mechanical.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vivalarevolución]

I guess it could be a neat way to show contextual controls that do more than a button could, e.g. sliders. The Lenovo X1 gen. 2 only had buttons as far as I can tell, so there's at least something more here than just making the function keys contextual. Then again, could they not do that by just having the actual screen have touch sensitivity? Guess that would make it too similar to an iPad.

Apple seems opposed to putting a full touchscreen into their Mac computer products, for reasons which we can speculate upon. The company obviously makes phenomenal touchscreens, just take their phones and tablets for a spin. But that is exactly the point. They have an entire other product lines for touchscreen tablets and phones, some of which are quite capable. By combining two products into one, you steer your customers into buying one product instead of mutiples, which cuts into your revenues and profits. Plus, trying to make a product do too many things may end up creating a poorly functioning, dud of a product.

As a user of a touchscreen laptop that does not fold into tablet mode, I often neglect the touchscreen because it simply is easier to use the touch pad. Also, the display half of the laptop is not stable when you use the touchscreen, it tends to wobble a bit from the force of touching the screen (this could be alleviated with a sturdy hinge, but that affects the overall look, weight, and thinness of the device).

But really, 90% of people would be fine with a convertible Chromebook that folds into tablet mode and be done with it.

Yeah. I can't swallow the price of the new MacBook... I ended up with a T460p, i7-6820HQ, 192gb SSD (upgradable), 8gb RAM (upgradable), and the 14" 2560x1440 display for $879.99 USD. Add to that the tactile keyboard (there's a lottery to get lucky with the better of the two OEMs) but I'll take that way over the shitty butterfly fake-mechanical.

Nice. Now you can buy yourself a nice used motorcycle with the money you saved, and those are a heck of a lot more fun that a Macbook.

[Findecanor]

MS is much more fun when they are jumping about.

I think, more to the point, MS is much more fun when they have someone at the wheel that realizes they need to jump about. Risk averse starts at the management level. And for years, they've been risk averse, paying more attention to the stock price and dividends now rather than what they could be.

Microsoft's move to the "Metro" tile interface was done under Ballmer.
Salty Nutella has not done a single thing that has instilled me with confidence in him - quite the contrary.

I have a hard time seeing professionals preferring this to proper physical keys and muscle memory

It is not as if the "butterfly mechanism" keys of the MacBook and MacBook Pro are very prominent as physical keys. It could almost be a touch keyboard with "taptic" feedback - that is already pretty much how it feels like.

I wonder if younger people that are using mostly chiclets and touch keyboards are ever going to develop proper muscle memory for keyboards like we have.

[alh84001]

I know someone who had one of their phones and actually liked it.

Well, you can add me to the list. Actually, I'm kind of indifferent to it now that they turned Windows Phone into Android/iOS clone but with less apps and for usage with MS' ecosystem. Although initial version had far less features and some usability issues, conceptually it was really a different beast (if you're not counting WebOS) with all the hubs, wireless syncing, clean and uncompromising UI, etc. With each new release, they watered it down a bit, or rather muddied the waters, to what we have today - still nice for me to use, but not different from Android in any significant way. I guess the pinnacle (or best compromise) was with WP8 or WP8.1 on Lumia 920.

[vivalarevolución]

Nearly everyone that has used a Windows Phone seems to have a good user experience. Interesting.