A new US Republican thread 2016

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

10 Nov 2016, 03:24

jacobolus wrote:
His GOP pick
One of my over-riding fears is that he will abdicate 99% of his leadership duties to Pence, a truly evil person on every level of his being. Equal to Cruz? I don't know, but maybe.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

10 Nov 2016, 03:27

jacobolus wrote: If you don’t think Trump’s campaign was explicitly racist and misogynist, I have a bridge to sell you.
He said a lot of things, I'm not a fan. Didn't bomb Muslim weddings, like your heroes. If you don't think that's fascist, I have a bridge to sell you. Or a Nobel Peace Prize. Also you still don't get it why people voted on him, and it's not that they are racist or misogynist.

n__dles

10 Nov 2016, 03:40

I think I've found out why webwit has been bigging up The Donald!
webwit wrote: If Clinton had learned from Brexit .. she would have won.
Donald Trump wrote:“I know more about ISIS than the generals do .. [They] don’t know much because they’re not winning.”
Thinks he knows more than multiple experts (generals / Hillary's political analysts). Overinflated sense of self a la Dunning–Kruger effect.
Donald Trump wrote:No One Respects Women More Than I Do
Donald Trump wrote:And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything.
webwit wrote: I could troll you more .. you do deserve it for this random rant against imagined anti-American racism.
webwit wrote:I'm anti-US. It is a fascist country. A country which commits murder from drones. War criminals. F**k the US, f**k your president, and f**k his voters. Any bombings of weddings lately?
Makes a claim contradictory to reality.
When confronted with indisputable evidence contradicting their statement:
  1. Trump begrudgling apoliges.
  2. webwit ignores evidence.
Those are big gloves to fill, can't really blame webwit.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

10 Nov 2016, 03:43

I'm kind of flattered by how much time you put into that ;)
It needs some labels at the x-axis and y-axis, preferably some satanic scale.

n__dles

10 Nov 2016, 03:49

Yea, the table was the tedious part, that took over 5 minutes of fiddling, and it's still pretty shitty, but whatever. The rest was easy, just grabbing a few quotes, my original words are what, like 50?

Still not going to admit that you were wrong?

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

10 Nov 2016, 03:51

It would help if you'd hint at what I was wrong about before I'd still not admit it.

User avatar
002
Topre Enthusiast

10 Nov 2016, 04:01

If you can build walls as well as you build tables, there might be a job for you down on the border!

n__dles

10 Nov 2016, 04:02

Man, you gonna make me copy paste those quotes again??
n__dles wrote:
webwit wrote: I could troll you more, but it's too easy with the "victim" type, especially when in tantrum. :lol: Although you do deserve it for this random rant against imagined anti-American racism. What the fuck.
Totally imagined: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Americanism

edit:
webwit wrote: imagined anti-American racism
I'm anti-US. It is a fascist country. A country which commits murder from drones. War criminals. F**k the US, f**k your president, and f**k his voters. Any bombings of weddings lately?
HAHAHAHAHA! Oh man, I figured with the time and your impeccable English you were either Canadian or an Australian or New Zealander. I just checked your location, your Dutch?

Please don't tell me you're abroad and in a country where this is a reasonable time to be awake. Please fulfill the 3rd prophecy: engages in internet battles in the middle of the night.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

10 Nov 2016, 04:08

n__dles wrote: your Dutch?
"You're Dutch." We correct your English spelling.

You haven't told me what to admit to yet, but for convenience I'll fill in the blanks and admit I am indeed a witch, a demon. You may proceed with the burning of the witch now.

User avatar
002
Topre Enthusiast

10 Nov 2016, 04:10

Only a witch would be up at 4:10AM trolling people on the internet.

n__dles

10 Nov 2016, 04:12

See what I mean about impeccable English!

Like Trump, you shift from questions that aren't befitting of you to answer. You can't deny that I plainly asked where you are in the world?

Are you in the CE timezone, where it's now 4:12 in the morning?

Is anti-Americanism a real thing?

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

10 Nov 2016, 04:15

I can't disclose whether I'm a duck or a vampire.

n__dles

10 Nov 2016, 04:24

Ok, even behind the jokes and relative civility between us, the truth is you don't like Americans, or at a minimum some Americans.

What do you think about 1). Jews and 2). Israel?

I'm not asking to make judgement or argue, just genuinely curious.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

10 Nov 2016, 04:31

I always find exit polls interesting:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016 ... .html?_r=0

Basically seems like people vote with the same tendencies these days no matter what candidate you put in front of them. Percentages sway a few points, but never a clear knockout. Obama in 2008 was a modern anomaly, for a few reasons.

There are large divides that go beyond the usual racial divisions, but an urban/rural disconnect, college educated/non college educated, rich/poor, religious/nonreligious, potentially generational. I'm not sure how these gaps can be bridged, when there is such a difference in understanding and exchange among these groups.

Regarding the electoral map, this one was decided by the Midwest. Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin switched, and Minnesota was less blue than usual. I've spent most of my life here, and man, so many places are beat up. Factories gone, farming towns dead or dying, major cities all have sizable ghettos. The only places that seem to do well are the suburbs, maybe some urban revitalization, and a few smaller cities with very solid local companies. The grievances people have, shit, I can understand why the country seems like it is going in a such bad direction.

I'm actively trying to understand the mind of the Trump voter to pick up what I missed. I hear arguments that tend to go like this: Yes I know, Trump is not that great of a choice, but Hillary is a corrupt, murderous, greedy, elitist, establishment liar that should have left her husband long ago (emails, Benghazi, Bill's mistresses, Clinton Foundation, DNC leaks, bombing, corporate ties, Wikileaks...the usual list, whether factual or not). Could never vote for a person like that. Trump will do less damage and maybe do some good things, so I'm voting for him. The arguments mostly attack Hillary than describe what Trump actually can do.

Yet I find this whole line of reasoning to not hold Trump accountable for his equally long list of dirty laundry. He fits all the accusations directed towards Hillary, except he hasn't had the power to be a murderous government official (give him time). It's like his truly awful characteristics are completely discounted or ignored because he is not Hillary Clinton. And these seems to be a complete misunderstanding of the sort of damage that he might do here and abroad (or maybe it's my misunderstanding).

The reason that many independent voters went for Trump probably is simpler than we make it out to be. Hillary would only perpetuate the problems that we have complained about for so long, and she really sucks and is simply power hungry. Trump kinda sucks as well, but he is an outsider, anti-establishment candidate (that grew up in the 1%, mind you) and could potentially clean up dirty Washington and reduce the federal bureaucracy (despite all his dirty past, corporate background, and awful tax/spending plans). And there are reasons that are less complex, such as Trump's ability to appeal to our basic human nature, our fears, anger, dissatisfactions, outright or buried sexism, nativism.

Anyways, as much as I dislike Trump, I can't stand Mike Pence and the Republican agenda. I'm not sure how it moves us towards a better country, humanity, and environment. Yet they still run my state and the country. Either I have to deal with it, fight for what I believe in, or just try to leave the country.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

10 Nov 2016, 04:38

n__dles wrote: Ok, even behind the jokes and relative civility between us, the truth is you don't like Americans, or at a minimum some Americans.

What do you think about 1). Jews and 2). Israel?

I'm not asking to make judgement or argue, just genuinely curious.
Your rhetoric sounds racist to me. Still, I expected better witch burning. I wonder how long before you notice you're proving my points. Probably never.

n__dles

10 Nov 2016, 04:52

I think he's different things for different people (like any Presidential candidate, I suppose). He's anti-establishment for some, he's the first candidate in a long time to speak to the bigots, he's a financial success story and even the embodiment of the American dream (I met many foreign born Americans who were big fans of his).

What I found most interesting, is how two groups reacted to him. Pre-civil rights movement the South was entirely Blue, post civil rights entirely Red. So it's not that big of a surprise they voted for him.. but if there's one thing Southerner hates, it's a Yankee, and the worst kinda Yankee is a New Yorker. I didn't hear one peep from Southerners about him being from New Jack City.

Even more surprising is how this election was devoid of any Christianity talk. The Mormons (are they considered Christians?) disavowed him, I think it was 19% of Utah Mormons that view Trump favorably. However, very few Evangelicals did. I think a few Evangelical Pastors disowned him after the locker room talk, but he got pretty much all their vote. Typically when Evangelicals are unhappy with the Republican candidate they just don't vote.

n__dles

10 Nov 2016, 05:10

webwit wrote: Your rhetoric sounds racist to me.
Did you ever consider that (((n__dles))) might be part of the tribe?!
There's a high co-morbidity between anti-Americanism, antisemitism, and anti-Zionism, that's why I'm asking. See photo: Image
webwit wrote: I wonder how long before you notice you're proving my points. Probably never.
Yeah, probably never, I'm not even really sure which point you're trying to make. 'not me, you!'? I'm the bigot but projecting it on to you?

I guess you won't answer. Despite not wanting to assume one or the other, I can't help but think it's because you have not so warm and fuzzy feelings.
webwit wrote: Still, I expected better witch burning.
It's not witch burning, it's curiosity and wanting to understand if you do feel that way, why? I've read anti-Americanism, antisemitism, and anti-Zionism articles and posts, but never actually had a conversation with someone who has those beliefs.

edit: too dumb to figure out how to embed a photo, changing it to a link.

User avatar
002
Topre Enthusiast

10 Nov 2016, 05:32

Just wrap the link to the image with:

Code: Select all

[img][/img]
You also need the direct image link, not the mediawiki image viewer link. I did it for you.

n__dles

10 Nov 2016, 05:53

002 wrote: I did it for you.
Thanks!

webwit, I've got to go to sleep because I'm a functioning adult who wakes up in the morning. /s

Since tone is often lost on the internet I just want to say that besides for the one message to seebart, which I acknowledge that I overreacted and regret making, all of the posts I've made tonight have been at least partly in jest. Even when I destroyed your comment about American culture, which was done partly in angry, I made a joke at the end with the Meatloaf bit.

So you're anti-American, it's not like I've never experienced that before. (Though you don't believe I have!) I even agree with some of your criticism.

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

10 Nov 2016, 08:38

Well I was baffled by this election this time yesterday and I am still baffled now. Was Trump really that smart in his campaign?
n__dles wrote: Trump is talented in the same way that a snake-oil salesman is. He's good at distorting reality and playing up to people's desperation.
That's a good choice of words. Because the bottom line is he repeatedly told voters what they wanted to hear in their language. Language played a large role in his win IMO. His short easy to understand sentences combined with the ("I'll show you the good old american way) swagger.

Of course many other factors played into his win, and let's not forget it was all in all pretty close.

Just read this:

https://theintercept.com/2016/11/09/in- ... challenge/

User avatar
Wodan
ISO Advocate

10 Nov 2016, 08:57

seebart wrote: Well I was baffled by this election this time yesterday and I am still baffled now. Was Trump really that smart in his campaign?
It's a miracle Obama got a second term against a very weak Romney. Before the pre-elections started, I was convinced the next president was going to be republican because Obama had just done too good of a job mobilizing them and both houses had republican majorities (afaik ...)

Trumps only real achievement was making this a very close race. More die-hard republicans went to vote for Trump than anticipated and his campaign had a great mobilization momentum than Clintons. Unlike several very prominent republicans that turned away from Trump, the great mass of republican voters stayed with him ... which was the biggest surprise to me. After what he said about McCain and Bush Jr. I thought he was going to loose more loyal republicans ...

User avatar
seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

10 Nov 2016, 09:12

Wodan wrote:
seebart wrote: Unlike several very prominent republicans that turned away from Trump, the great mass of republican voters stayed with him ... which was the biggest surprise to me. After what he said about McCain and Bush Jr. I thought he was going to loose more loyal republicans ...
I think it was a very emotional vote, essentially a vote for a change just like Obama stood for with slightly different motivations this time.

User avatar
7bit

10 Nov 2016, 10:41

People have enough of established politicians and vote for populists clowns.

For sure, established politicians blame it all on the voters, not on themselves.

andrewjoy

10 Nov 2016, 11:03

7bit wrote: People have enough of established politicians and vote for populists clowns.

For sure, established politicians blame it all on the voters, not on themselves.

Exactly this.

This is also why the brexit vote won.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

10 Nov 2016, 13:05

n__dles wrote: I think he's different things for different people (like any Presidential candidate, I suppose). He's anti-establishment for some, he's the first candidate in a long time to speak to the bigots, he's a financial success story and even the embodiment of the American dream (I met many foreign born Americans who were big fans of his).

What I found most interesting, is how two groups reacted to him. Pre-civil rights movement the South was entirely Blue, post civil rights entirely Red. So it's not that big of a surprise they voted for him.. but if there's one thing Southerner hates, it's a Yankee, and the worst kinda Yankee is a New Yorker. I didn't hear one peep from Southerners about him being from New Jack City.

Even more surprising is how this election was devoid of any Christianity talk. The Mormons (are they considered Christians?) disavowed him, I think it was 19% of Utah Mormons that view Trump favorably. However, very few Evangelicals did. I think a few Evangelical Pastors disowned him after the locker room talk, but he got pretty much all their vote. Typically when Evangelicals are unhappy with the Republican candidate they just don't vote.
Donald Trump, an American Dream success story, with one of the richest fathers in America! Gimme a break, the Clintons actually embody the American Dream more than Trump does.

I did not hear much talk about the race being between two East Coast elitists that are out of touch with most everyone and the vast majority simply voted along political/ideological lines. You may not have heard the Christianity talk in the media, because the focus was on personalities, but the selection of Mike Pence was a clear play to the Republican Christian base, even though Trump only practices the religion of himself and money. There is such a distrust of the other party by each party, that it seems members will not vote the other way no matter what.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

10 Nov 2016, 13:30

n__dles wrote: webwit, I've got to go to sleep because I'm a functioning adult who wakes up in the morning. /s

Since tone is often lost on the internet I just want to say that besides for the one message to seebart, which I acknowledge that I overreacted and regret making, all of the posts I've made tonight have been at least partly in jest. Even when I destroyed your comment about American culture, which was done partly in angry, I made a joke at the end with the Meatloaf bit.

So you're anti-American, it's not like I've never experienced that before. (Though you don't believe I have!) I even agree with some of your criticism.
Ad hominem attacks are so boring and it means you are not capable of discussing the issues instead. Like, OMG, someone on the Internet has a different opinion, let's not counter-argue the opinion, but attack the person instead. Yawn.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

10 Nov 2016, 14:29

seebart wrote:
Wodan wrote:
seebart wrote: Unlike several very prominent republicans that turned away from Trump, the great mass of republican voters stayed with him ... which was the biggest surprise to me. After what he said about McCain and Bush Jr. I thought he was going to loose more loyal republicans ...
I think it was a very emotional vote, essentially a vote for a change just like Obama stood for with slightly different motivations this time.
Yea, the change was for a straight talker with the idea that he would clean up Washington and restore American values (whatever that means). Despite that all the same politicians were re-elected that are part of the current mess.

When I look at the demographics in the exit polls, the voting tendencies seem very much in line with the past couple elections, with a few percentage points shifts here and there. But I can't help but single out older white men as the most influential group that got him to the top. And if you don't like the policies of Trump, Pence, and Republicans, that's the group whose minds you need to change, especially here in the Midwest.

Unfortunately, the leading opposing viewpoint is the Democratic ideology, which has its own major flaws.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

10 Nov 2016, 14:43

vivalarevolución wrote:
seebart wrote:
Despite that all the same politicians were re-elected that are part of the current mess.
And this is what proves the transcendent ignorance and gullibility of the voters who believed the words that came out of Trump's mouth.

User avatar
vivalarevolución
formerly prdlm2009

10 Nov 2016, 15:15

fohat wrote:
vivalarevolución wrote:
seebart wrote:
Despite that all the same politicians were re-elected that are part of the current mess.
And this is what proves the transcendent ignorance and gullibility of the voters who believed the words that came out of Trump's mouth.
I've learned from this election that a large percentage of voters always will be gullible, ignorant, and vote on pure emotion. You just have to find a way for your platform or ideology to appeal to these voters that has little basis on traditional logical, factual, evidence-based, or reasonable arguments. And do it constantly because attention spans and memories are worse than ever. Trump nailed that strategy. Obama nailed it in 2008.

I'm actually trying to actively understand why generally decent and good people that I know decided to vote for Trump, even though they admit he is a despicable human being. First of all, always the idea that we only have two choices, and you pick the one that you think can do the least damage, which is reasonable in our system. Maybe you'll even see this person as someone that can bring some improvements.

The other thing is that I always hear the same arguments attacking Clinton and these arguments are accepted without questioning the source or assumption of the argument or holding Trump as accountable as one holds Clinton. Its like people are accessing the exact same sources without questions the validity on the source or their own assumptions. When these arguments themselves are questioned, I do not observe an openness to new information, but a retreat into strongly held beliefs.

Another factor that I believe is very real is the subconscious belief that Hillary does not fit the traditional attributes of what a woman should be. It's off-putting for a lot of people. I did not find her more corrupt or guilty than any other politicians, but the fact she was a woman doing these things opened her to more criticism.

Obviously, the reasons people vote for certain candidates are many, but these are what strike me in the conversations I've had.

User avatar
002
Topre Enthusiast

10 Nov 2016, 15:17

vivalarevolución wrote: I did not find her more corrupt or guilty than any other politicians.
Good lord...how hard did you look?

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