(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

[lot_lizard]

Edit: For example, what exactly are you offering? If i wanted to make a keyboard from the ground up through this GB what do i need to order from you, what can't i get from you, etc?

What would i be missing if i already had a Model M ready to sacrifice?

welcome to the party. In the marketplace thread we open up, it will much more clear and concise (i realize this brainstorming thread is a mess). To sum of the net of your question though, we are offering a "kit" that if you choose the "add switches" option would allow you to take the outer shell and key caps from your existing Model M, and turn it into our version of an F. The only thing missing at that point would be the removable USB cable to plug into your PC. If you already had an F that you could salvage switches from, you could use them instead

[Arakula]

The order form looks good, but if I want to order a set with USB B output and, for later use when it becomes more common, an extra USB-C connector, and I want retainer clips for both in ivory and industrial color, I can't order that combination, as the retainer clips are not available as a separate item.

Do you think adding a separate block with the various retainer clips would make sense, or should I simply add that in the "Notes" area?

[Hypersphere]

@lot_lizard: The drop-in kit will not include the lubed stainless steel springs you are in the process of ordering -- correct or not?

[lot_lizard]

The drop-in kit will not include the lubed stainless steel springs you are in the process of ordering -- correct or not?

oops... Forgot to add that as an individual part, and option in the kit somehow (even though we were just discussing this ... Haha)

Do you think adding a separate block with the various retainer clips would make sense, or should I simply add that in the "Notes" area?

since there are only two color choices, let me just break that 4 into 8. Keep it simple.


Nice catches

[POTV]

A quick question... is Chromate more resistant to rust than the alternatives mentioned?

[lot_lizard]

A quick question... is Chromate more resistant to rust than the alternatives mentionedm

People in our forum will hold powder coating in higher regard than is really deserved, but it is an excellent finish (with many more color possibilities). If the metal is well cleaned and the powder is applied properly, it is thick and durable paint that will last forever if NOT exposed to an abrasive environment. So in our case, it's fanastic. In abrasive environments, once the paint is chipped away, the steel has no barrier to rust.


Zinc dipping is a more resistant to abrasion since the bond to metal is stronger. Zinc will however develop patina when it reacts to the real world elements. The patina is often mistaken as surface rust of the metal itself, but it actually creates an even more environmentally resistant surface. If you ever wipe patina with oil or cleaner, you will see it quickly vanishes. So think of it as the zinc coat reacting, while the steel would remain untouched. It is more of a "character" finish.

Moral, they are both excellent, and there is no a bad choice given our application

[POTV]

An excellent answer to a quick question

[Hypersphere]

Was Cerakote considered for the plates? My impression is that it is thinner than powder coating, which would tend to obviate concerns about parts not fitting.

[POTV]

In case of a major disaster - liquids in the keyboard - would it be wise to order spare parts along with the kit. And which in that case?

[lot_lizard]

Was Cerakote considered for the plates? My impression is that it is thinner than powder coating, which would tend to obviate concerns about parts not fitting.

I did check into Cerakote for the wire stabilizers when we were going the tapped metal route, but for full plates it would be pricey. And even then, you have a limited choice of colors. That industry has shifted its focus to firearms that focuses on small moving parts in drab colors

In case of a major disaster - liquids in the keyboard - would it be wise to order spare parts along with the kit. And which in that case?

The only short that could ever be expected in that case would be the controller, unless you are talking long term liquids while the board was in storage. Then maybe the springs if not stainless?!? Both would be highly unlikely unless you are speaking in decade(s) imo. I will have a small number of spares I'll order for failures. I wouldn't order anticipating failures myself

[Hypersphere]

The drop-in kit will not include the lubed stainless steel springs you are in the process of ordering -- correct or not?

oops... Forgot to add that as an individual part, and option in the kit somehow (even though we were just discussing this ... Haha)

Do you think adding a separate block with the various retainer clips would make sense, or should I simply add that in the "Notes" area?

since there are only two color choices, let me just break that 4 into 8. Keep it simple.


Nice catches

Will you be issuing a revised version of the spreadsheet?

[lot_lizard]

Right... The group buy will actually open in the Marketplace. I have made the spreadsheet updates, but still need to finish the thread. It will be today yet, but im not sure exactly when (life strikes again )

[drevyek]

I'm having a bit of trouble with envisioning the colours on the board. What colour does the Chromate finish have? Is it basically the colour of the XT backplate?

Having the "swatches" of the other powdercoat/paints would also help. I saw the blue and red posted a page or so back, but not the green (unless I'm blind).

[Ir0n]

I'm having a bit of trouble with envisioning the colours on the board. What colour does the Chromate finish have? Is it basically the colour of the XT backplate?

Having the "swatches" of the other powdercoat/paints would also help. I saw the blue and red posted a page or so back, but not the green (unless I'm blind).

Chromate is exactly like the model f back plates.
kind of goldish with rainbow colors in it. ;D
I think the red color is true red which would look something like this.. (Photo from the Ellipse project)



Not a 100% though.
As for the other colors not sure.

[lot_lizard]

Sorry guys... The group buy starts tomorrow. My daughter and I had a play day, and it impacted me finalizing my thread for the Marketplace. The "form" (spreadsheet) is updated, but wanted to make the thread a little more hardened. Phase 1 is atypical in the scheme of Group Buys, and based on all the good questions coming in via PM from folks that have actively flowed from the beginning... I want to make sure we start with something that is clear for those that are just now seeing this. Sorry for the day delay

[fohat]

You put your daughter ahead of a bunch of geeky nerds that you have never even met in real life?

[alh84001]

Scandalous!

[Techno Trousers]

I think the one day delay is good. It seems appropriate to full out the order form using my F-122 at work.

[DMA]

How does a project get to be a year late?... One day at a time.

-- Fred Brooks, "The Mythical Man-Month"

..actually, if GB runs for a month, then there's production - it may be just enough time for certain controller.. improvements. For those not shy of soldering and not needing layers in their layout.
Oh, and not afraid of running beta firmware which author can't do any sort of real-world testing for.
In other words, very brave and|or really stupid

[giokkk]

@lot_lizard: I think that it could be useful to post a step by step guide for the assembly instructions in order to check for the users if they have enough skill to be able to mount by themselves the kit or if they have to choose the mounting assembly option.

[lot_lizard]

I think that it could be useful to post a step by step guide for the assembly instructions in order to check for the users if they have enough skill to be able to mount by themselves the kit or if they have to choose the mounting assembly option.

I was going to put together a how-to guide when they finally shipped. I'll see if I can get it out before then

[Hypersphere]

@lot_lizard:

1. When you do the "how to" guide, please add a section with the detailed recipe for lubing the springs (and barrels?). This would be helpful for those who would like to furnish their own switches from an XT or F122.

2. USB connector: If we are uncertain about which USB connector to choose, is it a simple matter to swap them out? I am on the fence and would like the option of a DIY swap among different types of connectors.

[wcass]

Changing the USB connector is super easy.

• Open the case
  Unplug the 4 pin header on the old USB connector board
  Pull out old USB connector board
  Put in the new USB connector board
  Plug in the 4 pin header to the new USB connector board
  Close case

You should be done in under 5 minutes and only need a took to open the case. The cost of the USB connector boards is very reasonable, so i'll likely get a B and a C.

[lot_lizard]

Sorry for the delay guys... We are off and running. If you see something that could be clarified more, let me know:

group-buys-f50/model-mf-drop-in-kit-for ... 15091.html

[Darkshado]

How long do you plan on running this?
Any news from @phosphorglow concerning his SSK cases? (If not, any alternatives to cutting up otherwise correct fullsize M cases?)

// TODO: Try a Model F in the Montreal area to see how it compares to my Ms...

[drevyek]

How long do you plan on running this?
Any news from @phosphorglow concerning his SSK cases? (If not, any alternatives to cutting up otherwise correct fullsize M cases?)

// TODO: Try a Model F in the Montreal area to see how it compares to my Ms...

I cut down an M into the SSK form-factor, and it went rather well. For this I intend to do the same thing. There are a few guides on here about it, but for my post, it's back in this thread a way back. I also did the full cut-down (plate, barrels, etc) which is included there. I want to do the same thing (slightly different procedure) for this. My main advice: Dremel + epoxy + planning. You 100% need to know exactly where to cut before you go. I spent way too long sanding and filing.

workshop-f7/remodeling-the-model-m-t137 ... ml#p321747
Finished product: http://imgur.com/a/jGLGm

[lot_lizard]

How long do you plan on running this?
Any news from @phosphorglow concerning his SSK cases? (If not, any alternatives to cutting up otherwise correct fullsize M cases?)

// TODO: Try a Model F in the Montreal area to see how it compares to my Ms...

The length of the GB is a good question. I have a set number of switches that I need to be able to part with, but the kits can come with or without switches. We had fantastic turnout so far, but I need to tally some numbers to get my head around it all, and speculate about duration. The goal would be 4-6 weeks max, which means we might need to post something on GH at some points to clean up the scraps... But trying to avoid at present to make sure anyone here can get what they need. For the todo, it's remarkable the difference, but only you can know what you prefer. The two models (M and F) have very different characteristics.


For the replacement cases, plan on that inn the coming months, but not part of this GB at present

[BinaryHalibut]

From the marketplace thread:

Actually, something to keep in mind: The late model fixed-cable Lexmarks with the cables off to one edge of the case (the ones with a small control board directly attached to the barrel plate) won't work with the USB insert, and the lock light windows don't line up either. I'd imagine Unicomps are similar to that design, so even if the assembly fits you'll have to get a long USB cable and make it fixed-cable, and the lock lights won't line up (though they might still shine through a bit).

The lock light panel can be moved somewhat currently, but I can certainly increase the tolerance so that it would works if it isn't enough. Do you have specific model numbers you could point me to? Also, for the cable exits, do you have example part numbers there too? I would appreciate. Not saying anything can be done, but I would like to take a peek . I have MANY IBM boards, but the oldest M would be in the very early 90s unfortunately

So by late model I mean the "younger" ones.

The ones that I have with this configuration are 92G7453 (I have 3 from Sep '95 through Jan '96, Lexmark branded) and 42H1292 (IBM UK, from '97). These have the exact same cable exit style and lock light position as Unicomp boards, and chronologically they immediately precede the Unicomp ones, so I assume that the case is roughly the same. I did put a 92G7453 inner assembly into a GE Unicomp medical board case once (and it fit), but I don't have the GE Unicomp anymore so I can't take detailed photos/confirm lock light alignment..

Note that there are fixed-cable Lexmarks that have a standard cable exit and lock lights though, from around the same period too (Part no. 82G2383, from July '95).

Here's how the lock light and cable assembly looks on the 92G7453:

Spoiler:

And from the inside:

Putting the inner assembly of an Oct '86 silver label (Part no. 1390120) into the 92G7453 case does work, but the controller board doesn't fit because there's a pillar in the way:

Spoiler:

Interestingly enough, the 92G7453 case does have the little pillars there that are supposed to hold the controller board in place even though it doesn't have a controller board. Picture of said pillars on the 92G7453 and picture of 92G7453 and silver label bottom cases:

Spoiler:

It's pretty damn dirty

I decided to also try stuffing the 82G2383 Lexmark board into the 92G7453 case, and even though the former does have a discrete controller board, since there's no SDL plug connected to it it actually fits, so I closed up the case and tried to see if the light would come through:

Spoiler:

Basically lit by monitor glow:

Normal lighting:

Picture of 82G2383 in 92G7453 case:

So the answer is no, under normal circumstances. Which was kind of expected, given the differences in cutout position.

Spoiler:

I don't have calipers, so this might not be too accurate, but based on just ruler measurements, the 82G2383 (standard-style) LED cutout for num lock is ~1cm out from the end of the Pause/Break cutout and ~2cm down from the top of the bezel (measured to top left corner) while the 92G7453 LED cutout for num lock is ~2.5cm out and ~0.8cm down (measured to top left corner, the bottom left corner is ~1cm down).

Also, while the standard LED cutouts are spaced evenly across 5cm (so 2.5cm between the left edge of one to the left edge of the next) the Unicomp-style ones are spaced ~1.9cm apart (across ~3.8cm). This might be pretty hard to resolve.

The two Lexmark boards:

Spoiler:

LED cutouts

82G2383 case is closer to camera.

So overall, the Unicomp-style NumLock LED is around 1.2cm higher up and 1.5cm further to the right than the normal IBM-style one, and the left edges are spaced across ~3.8cm instead of across ~5cm. Which means that you could get it mostly centered if you moved it ~1.2cm up and ~0.9cm to the right versus standard IBM, though in this case the num and scroll locks are off-center from the LED by about 0.6cm or so, which isn't exactly insignificant.

Of course if you have a ~'95-'97 model M with the Unicomp-style LED and cable cutouts it'd always be best to do a physical test

[lot_lizard]

@BinaryHalibut... Such a wonderful post. This was very helpful. We can make the top plate account for the LED panel offset nicely without issue. We'll have to chew on the USB exit a bit. As you mentioned before, worst case is a "direct cable" exit. Again... Highly helpful

[E TwentyNine]

Also, while the standard LED cutouts are spaced evenly across 5cm (so 2.5cm between the left edge of one to the left edge of the next) the Unicomp-style ones are spaced ~1.9cm apart (across ~3.8cm). This might be pretty hard to resolve.

It's not hard to resolve at all. Drill new holes and get a new sticker overlay. That's exactly what Unicomp did in the overstock industrial cases they've been selling, possibly due to a plan to populate them with new internals that never came to fruition.