Model MF - GB CLOSED

[Wingpad]

I just sent in my order form, let's get the hype train rolling folks!

Spoiler:

[HAL]

Order sent.
This group buy will provide the missing component for the perfect keyboard.

[Phenix]

awesome to see this happen!
Really thanks for your work

[Hypersphere]

@lot_lizard: It is great to see the GB opened!

However, some members might feel some trepidation about selecting purchasing options that have not yet been tested. Would it be possible for you to assemble a working keyboard using, for example, the components that are to be powdercoated to ensure that they will work properly? If not, is this because it would be too expensive to have prototypes sent to you without guaranteeing the producers of a MOQ? If this is not possible, would you be able to post a video of the prototype shown in the pictures so that we could see and hear it working? (Apologies if you have already done this and I missed it in the project thread). Have you tested your prototype to confirm that the PCB and revised controller work as intended?

It would also be very helpful to post a brief "build log" with pictures to show how the kit components are assembled. Having refurbished an IBM XT, I found that it was rather tricky assembling the barrels, flippers, foam layer, and the front and back plates. Will this be much easier with the FSSK kit?

I am still unclear about the new springs. If we order these as separate parts, and if we order the "switches", if we wanted to have new springs in our FSSK, we would need to remove the old springs from the flippers and install new springs on them -- correct? Are there any issues getting the new springs to stay attached to the flippers? What about lubing the springs? Will you be lubing all of them before putting them up for sale?

Are there any advantages to getting the "switches" (barrels, springs, and flippers) from you rather than furnishing them ourselves from IBM Model F keyboards (XT, AT, F107, F122)? For example, were you going to lube the barrels and springs?

EDIT: One more thing -- Would there be any functional differences or differences in the sound and/or feel of the keyboard among the various plate materials and treatments (e.g., stainless vs non-stainless steel, powdercoated vs chromate, etc.)?

Thanks again. I am very excited about this project and looking forward to finally having a working FSSK!

[wobbled]

Incredible work

I can't wait to get mine

Thank you so much for the hard work

[Khers]

Finally managed to find the time to go through it all and submitted an order

This is way too awesome to miss out on! Thank you lot_lizard for your hard work!

[Hypersphere]

@lot_lizard: The new springs have a target actuation of 55g. What is the approximate actuation force for "standard" Model F springs? Do these vary according to the type of keyboard (e.g., XT, AT, F107, F122)?

[drevyek]

@Hypersphere- Great questions! Although don't go advocating killing an AT or 107 for barrels! I'd love to know how heavy F springs- or M springs for that matter- are normally. Would the change in spring force change the sound or overall keyfeel other than just the weight?

[t!ng]

Could I modify a unicomp board with this kit? What would I need?

[Techno Trousers]

I've read (from Ellipse, IIRC) that the model F spring rates and sound are all over the map, depending on wear, age, degradation, etc. For what it's worth, I have a single F-122, and using the "nickel test," it actuates somewhere between 60 and 65 grams of weight. Does anyone know exactly what weight Ellipse settled on for the F62/F77 project?

[fohat]

How do you attach a non-photo file in a private message?

[Techno Trousers]

How do you attach a non-photo file in a private message?

I was able to browse for the xlsx. It was down below the message area.

[romevi]

Thank goodness I've decided to keep my SSK. Now I don't have to worry about getting an Ellipsaver!

[Ir0n]

Could I modify a unicomp board with this kit? What would I need?

If you're asking if this will fit in a unicomp case ..yes yes it will (maybe with few cuts here and there)
I know this because I just shoved a Model Ms guts into a G.E. unicomp case just to see if it'd fit.

As long as your Unicomps case looks exactly like the model Ms you'll be fine. I don't know about the smaller unicomp cases

[tentator]

that's the thing.. which unicomp case? my impression is that it might fit from internal clip point of view but then you'll have to see about the winkeys and such maybe even the space bar? not sure these caps will fit so nicely, right? (i.e. is the winkey 1u or 1.25u in your unicomp?)

[Hypersphere]

I checked the actuation force on my XT and F122 keyboards -- they each average around 60 g, which I find ideal.

[Ir0n]

that's the thing.. which unicomp case? my impression is that it might fit from internal clip point of view but then you'll have to see about the winkeys and such maybe even the space bar? not sure these caps will fit so nicely, right? (i.e. is the winkey 1u or 1.25u in your unicomp?)

Good point I have no idea about those. I was talking about the cases that look exactly like the model M.
You'd just need to cut the tabs off to fit the winkey.

The only weird part on those would be the cable (at least on mine) it comes out on the opposite side of a model m, you'd need to do some cable management. Lol

@t!ng You should post a photo, or tell us the model of your unicomp.

[lot_lizard]

Excellent questions, and I appreciate them. Adding this for sure to the Q&A section up front when I can regroup

However, some members might feel some trepidation about selecting purchasing options that have not yet been tested. Would it be possible for you to assemble a working keyboard using, for example, the components that are to be powdercoated to ensure that they will work properly? If not, is this because it would be too expensive to have prototypes sent to you without guaranteeing the producers of a MOQ? If this is not possible, would you be able to post a video of the prototype shown in the pictures so that we could see and hear it working? (Apologies if you have already done this and I missed it in the project thread). Have you tested your prototype to confirm that the PCB and revised controller work as intended?

I do have working prototypes in hand for both the SSK and FEXT, but not in the latest updated versions of the top plate, bottom plate, PCB or controller. We have all the parts for the controller, and Phosphorglow has been nice enough to volunteer to assemble it so we can test. Both versions of WCass's finalized PCB will be ordered very shortly. Early next week, I am meeting my metal fabricator friends to finalize the powder coating colors and consistencies, and then have them produce a final version for me. I will have those all in hand over the coming couple of weeks. We will test, photograph better, and I will likely send to somewhere here in the states (someone very familiar with this project) to test and give feedback on. Only then will we hit the GO button.


To your point about expense... it is VERY expensive to make these prototypes as singles. But there is zero chance I would actually place orders until we our final in hand. That said, we have gone through three working prototypes so far, and the very first one was actually a very good keyboard. We just keep improving our designs with various touches working independently. This is the first one I would consider a REAL product that should be mass produced.

It would also be very helpful to post a brief "build log" with pictures to show how the kit components are assembled. Having refurbished an IBM XT, I found that it was rather tricky assembling the barrels, flippers, foam layer, and the front and back plates. Will this be much easier with the FSSK kit?

This was brought up before. I had planned on that guide together while the parts were being produced using the finalized prototype as a model, but if you think it would help, I can certainly show the parts that would be new and novel now (the screws vs legacy Model F tabs, etc). My personal opinion is it is basically identical to any other F assembly process for the top plate, but the backplate installation is closer to a M bolt-mod than an F (but with many less screws and no need to worry too much about tension). I personally think it is the best assembly process to date, but I am biased . The following hopefully give you a general idea:

• screw all of the bottom row screws in half way
• then apply about 3 pounds of pressure to the top edge to seal completely
• tighten the top edge fully
• tighten the bottom edge fully

At that point, the unit is completely seal with no risk of flipper/barrel movement, then the remaining screws can be tensioned as needed

I am still unclear about the new springs. If we order these as separate parts, and if we order the "switches", if we wanted to have new springs in our FSSK, we would need to remove the old springs from the flippers and install new springs on them -- correct? Are there any issues getting the new springs to stay attached to the flippers? What about lubing the springs? Will you be lubing all of them before putting them up for sale?

Correct, they would be a replacement to the existing. It is not a difficult process, but time consuming. You could actually practice with a flipper now if you had one handy. You just want to make sure you keep the spring aligned while you compress down, with maybe 20 pounds of pressure (making up numbers), or enough until it fully seats on the flipper paddle, and it is perfectly vertical when released. I will be cleaning and dry lubing in PTFE (Teflon) before I ship them, so no need to worry there. They are also stainless, so I wouldn't anticipate concerns about them for considerable time.[/quote]

Would there be any functional differences or differences in the sound and/or feel of the keyboard among the various plate materials and treatments (e.g., stainless vs non-stainless steel, powdercoated vs chromate, etc.)?

The powder coating will add thickness to the plates, and inherently a little extra sound control. That said... a huge majority of the sound from these switches resonates up the barrel opening itself. I myself wouldn't make my choice there based on performance gains.

[Techno Trousers]

I checked the actuation force on my XT and F122 keyboards -- they each average around 60 g, which I find ideal.

Should we petition here for lot_lizard to target a 60g actuation force, rather than 55g for the stainless springs? I'm in favor of 60g myself, since I don't think going lighter would improve my enjoyment of the switch.

[mana]

But have you ever used a 55g model F?

[drevyek]

I wonder what the cost differences would be to run both? $0.09 -> $0.13? I would buy maybe a few spring packs, just to try out different weights.

[Hypersphere]

But have you ever used a 55g model F?

Good point! If I now consider 60g Model F switches to be "ideal", it is possible that I would find 55g Model F switches "idealer".

At present, I can only compare different types of switches with various weights. Based on this imperfect apples/oranges comparison, I have generally found 45g switches too light and 70g - 80g switches too heavy. Somewhere in the 50g - 65g range seems about right. It is possible that 55g or 60g could be just fine. I do know that I like my existing Model F switches very much and they are around 60g, but I have not experienced a 55g Model F switch.

It seems that springs are not very expensive, so perhaps some different weights could be produced.

[hammelgammler]

I'm definitely in for some lower weight springs! I would even say 50g would be fine for me.

[Hypersphere]

@lot_lizard: If we purchase switches through the GB, what process(es) will these have been through? Will they be cleaned (ultrasonic?). What about lube? I suppose if lube were used, it should be applied only to the springs. Would the teflon affect the capacitance properties of the flippers?

[Techno Trousers]

Based on this imperfect apples/oranges comparison, I have generally found 45g switches too light and 70g - 80g switches too heavy. Somewhere in the 50g - 65g range seems about right.

I'm right here with you in this analysis. I think 55g MX blues are a little on the light side, but greens are much too heavy. 62g ergo clears are really nice. But how all that translates to buckling spring I have no idea.

One thing I'd like us to consider is the relatively far future. If I'm using my MF every day for 10 years, how does that affect the springs? They'll get lighter, right? Doesn't that introduce a potential risk that starting with 55g might make then too light down the road when they're really broken in?

Argh.. decisions are hard.

[Hypersphere]

My Model F boards are roughly 30 years old and the switches actuate at around 60g. I am not sure when the DT wiki on buckling springs was written, but it says that Model F springs are 60 to 65g and Model M are 65 to 70g.

Again, it is apples/oranges/meatballs, but I also find Cherry mx Blues at 55g to be a bit light. Cherry mx Clears are much too heavy for me, mainly because of the steep slope of the force-displacement curve -- their actuation is around 65g, but they bottom out at around 95g (and my typing style is to bottom out). I like the weight of Matias Click switches -- 60g actuation but they reportedly bottom out at 35g. Likewise, I like the weight of Blue or White Alps, which are around 70g actuation, although Blue Alps feel lighter to me than White Alps.

But the real comparison to be made is Model F switches in the same keyboard. If the vintage switches are around 60g, I would probably stick with them, but I might try out the 55g springs to see how they compare under actual typing conditions.

[t!ng]

@t!ng You should post a photo, or tell us the model of your unicomp.

It's the space saver like on this picture:

https://blueballcomputing.files.wordpre ... _black.jpg

Guess it wouldn't fit though =/

[Ir0n]

@t!ng You should post a photo, or tell us the model of your unicomp.

It's the space saver like on this picture:

https://blueballcomputing.files.wordpre ... _black.jpg

Guess it wouldn't fit though =/

My advice would be just to get a case for it if you wanted one.
You can find them here. http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Surplus

But you probably already knew that. ;p

[vivalarevolución]

Oh boy, so it's finally happening. How neat.

[lot_lizard]

Could I modify a unicomp board with this kit? What would I need?

Thats a tough one to say Ting without having one in front of me, or you taking some interior measurements. There are portions that we have cut out in the metal top plate to account for the "braces" on the underside of the Model M plastic shell. If you could open it up and take a few pics, we could tell if measurements are even the next step to take. Unfortunately, I don't have a Unicomp shell to look at.

If we purchase switches through the GB, what process(es) will these have been through? Will they be cleaned (ultrasonic?). What about lube? I suppose if lube were used, it should be applied only to the springs. Would the teflon affect the capacitance properties of the flippers?

I am giving the springs (not the plastic flipper paddle) a bath in my parts cleaner (not ultrasonic, but very strong chemicals. The flipper paddle and barrels will be given a typical detergent bath like we would for keycaps that don't require retrobrite. Then the springs will be coated in Teflon, and re-assmebled to the flipper paddle. I haven't tested, but I would assume Teflon coating the flipper paddle itself would be a bad idea.