Model MF - GB CLOSED

[DMA]

I haven't tested, but I would assume Teflon coating the flipper paddle itself would be a bad idea.

Won't make much difference unless the coating reacts with the flipper material. You already have solder mask over the half of the pad and solder mask, copper, and FR4 layer over the other half of it. Adding 0.0001mm of anything will not make much difference. Piece of paper between flippers and PCB would make a good quick model of it.

Not much point in testing tho - it won't save you from disassembly/reassembly step. Those cleaning chemicals may eat the flipper alive.

[Hypersphere]

If we purchase switches through the GB, what process(es) will these have been through? Will they be cleaned (ultrasonic?). What about lube? I suppose if lube were used, it should be applied only to the springs. Would the teflon affect the capacitance properties of the flippers?

I am giving the springs (not the plastic flipper paddle) a bath in my parts cleaner (not ultrasonic, but very strong chemicals. The flipper paddle and barrels will be given a typical detergent bath like we would for keycaps that don't require retrobrite. Then the springs will be coated in Teflon, and re-assmebled to the flipper paddle. I haven't tested, but I would assume Teflon coating the flipper paddle itself would be a bad idea.

What chemicals do you use for cleaning the springs? Would it be sufficient to use ordinary detergent followed by a couple of hot water rinses and finishing with a distilled water and/or 70% or 91% isopropyl alcohol rinse and thorough drying?

I have become a recent convert to ultrasonic cleaning -- it does a great job in much less time than conventional cleaning methods. I use an iSonic P4820-WPB -- available on Amazon for under $100.

[lot_lizard]

I should have some cycles to go through everyones PM's tomorrow (travel day back home). Appreciate the patience and the large amount of support we are getting for this. Makes it worth while .

I haven't tested, but I would assume Teflon coating the flipper paddle itself would be a bad idea.

Won't make much difference unless the coating reacts with the flipper material. You already have solder mask over the half of the pad and solder mask, copper, and FR4 layer over the other half of it. Adding 0.0001mm of anything will not make much difference. Piece of paper between flippers and PCB would make a good quick model of it.

Its nice having conductivity wizards around ... Good to know...

What chemicals do you use for cleaning the springs? Would it be sufficient to use ordinary detergent followed by a couple of hot water rinses and finishing with a distilled water and/or 70% or 91% isopropyl alcohol rinse and thorough drying?

I have become a recent convert to ultrasonic cleaning -- it does a great job in much less time than conventional cleaning methods. I use an iSonic P4820-WPB -- available on Amazon for under $100.

In real production, it would be more ideal to keep the springs from ever drying (cleaner, to rinse, to lube (assumes the chemicals chosen don't react))... but to be honest, this springs are not THAT susceptible. I know we all have some that do have rust, but they have been exposed for decades. It would me more important that your protectant (oil, PTFE, whatever) have a good bond to the metal.


For the cleaning solvent, it is just important that it is acidic enough to remove anything INorganic like rust (thanks Hypersphere) and remove residue so the protectant can bond to the metal. To be honest, common household vinegar in a ultrasonic would work QUITE well I would think. I just have a parts cleaner in my shop, so taking advantage. It is overkill for our needs though.

[Hypersphere]

What chemicals do you use for cleaning the springs? Would it be sufficient to use ordinary detergent followed by a couple of hot water rinses and finishing with a distilled water and/or 70% or 91% isopropyl alcohol rinse and thorough drying?

I have become a recent convert to ultrasonic cleaning -- it does a great job in much less time than conventional cleaning methods. I use an iSonic P4820-WPB -- available on Amazon for under $100.

In real production, it would be more ideal to keep the springs from ever drying (cleaner, to rinse, to lube (assumes the chemicals chosen don't react))... but to be honest, this springs are not THAT susceptible. I know we all have some that do have rust, but they have been exposed for decades. It would me more important that your protectant (oil, PTFE, whatever) have a good bond to the metal.

For the cleaning solvent, it is just important that it is acidic enough to kill anything organic (rust) and remove residue so the protectant can bond to the metal. To be honest, common household vinegar in a ultrasonic would work QUITE well I would think. I just have a parts cleaner in my shop, so taking advantage. It is overkill for our needs though.

If you are using a water-based cleaning step, you would want to let the springs dry before applying a lubricant unless perhaps the lubricant were also water-based.

"Rust" usually means iron oxide, which is inorganic. The specific oxide or mixture of them is determined by a number of variables including oxygen levels and pH. Vinegar is indeed often effective at dissolving these oxides.

[fohat]

Vinegar is indeed often effective at dissolving these oxides.

But afterwards, if nothing else has been done, doesn't the vinegar leave the surface "stripped" and vulnerable to faster rusting next time?

[lot_lizard]

"Rust" usually means iron oxide, which is inorganic. The specific oxide or mixture of them is determined by a number of variables including oxygen levels and pH. Vinegar is indeed often effective at dissolving these oxides.

hahaha... Thank you. The phone auto correct must have stepped in. "Kill" was a bad choice of words, and it must have hopped in to say "you're crazy... How can you kill something which can't be living?!?". The key point being that you want to leave "unprotected" in a dry state as short as possible normally. These springs are low in iron though, and pretty forgiving. Again, thanks for the catch, I'll update the previous

But afterwards, if nothing else has been done, doesn't the vinegar leave the surface "stripped" and vulnerable to faster rusting next time?

exactly... Need to coat in a protectant to prevent future rust.

[Phenix]

Are you also doing an groupbuy for an MF metal case??
If so: Will it be possible to purchase an kit+such an case some time in the future?

[lot_lizard]

Are you also doing an groupbuy for an MF metal case??
If so: Will it be possible to purchase an kit+such an case some time in the future.

We will definitely do alternative cases at some point that will work for M's, but I really don't think I'll ever do this again. It really is a "non-profit" initiative, and this stuff is a LOT of work. Not trying to put you in an odd spot trying to decide what to do, but trying to be honest.

[Hypersphere]

@fohat: Corrosion of metals is a complex phenomenon. Some metals (such as some aluminum alloys) are protected by a thin layer of metal oxide(s) and stripping it off leaves the underlying metal available for another round of corrosion. It is also important to realize that the metal oxide is a new chemical compound formed from the metal and oxygen. Removing the metal oxide thereby removes the metal that had combined with oxygen. To help break the cycle, after removing metal oxides, the underlying metal surface can be coated with a protective layer such as paint or non-aqueous lubricant. Iron oxides ("rust") are usually not a good protective layer, especially on moving parts like springs, because rust tends not to form a tight thin layer like the oxide layer that can form on aluminum. Instead, it tends to crumble and flake, opening up the metal surface to more corrosion.

@lot_lizard: I wouldn't blame you for never doing this again -- especially with guys like me nit-picking all the time!

It just means we are deeply interested!

[lot_lizard]

Very well said

[Techno Trousers]

Are you also doing an groupbuy for an MF metal case??
If so: Will it be possible to purchase an kit+such an case some time in the future?

Here's what I'm doing, but it's not a recommendation, per se, since there are risks involved. I plan to get two each of the 101 and SSK assembly parts from this"Phase 1" group buy, to put together with my own harvested Model F switches. I have cases and enough switches on hand to assemble two 101s and 1 SSK. So why the other SSK assembly? I'm going to mothball it in anticipation of phase 2 (or 1.5 and 2, maybe). Lot_lizard had a goal to do a round of cases for these curved-plate drop-in assemblies, then a whole new round of development towards a capacitive buckling spring keyboard with a flat plate and adapters for MX mount key caps. As part of that final phase, all new barrels and flippers will be made, which he says will still be backward compatible with curved plates. But he's not going to make these curved plate MF parts again. Ever. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity!

To sum up, following this round 1, I'll have two usable 101s and one SSK.
After round 1.5, I'll have up to 4 new and awesome cases.
After round 2, I'll have two usable 101s and SSKs, in awesome cases, and could potentially even rebuild my original donor Model Fs if I want to buy extra switches.

So the calculated risk, of course, is that lot_lizard might decide to not go on with the later phases, or something else could happen to prevent it. In that case, I'd have an extra SSK assembly that I could save as a backup, or seek out more Model F switches and another case to make it functional.

[snoopy]

Are you also doing an groupbuy for an MF metal case??
If so: Will it be possible to purchase an kit+such an case some time in the future.

We will definitely do alternative cases at some point that will work for M's, but I really don't think I'll ever do this again. It really is a "non-profit" initiative, and this stuff is a LOT of work. Not trying to put you in an odd spot trying to decide what to do, but trying to be honest.

Never again? Don't make me buy two kits (one as spare)

[Hypersphere]

@lot_lizard: Questions about the winkeys and split-backspace options:

Winkeys: If I select this option, I would need to cut off the separators on the case between the Ctrl and Alt keys, correct?

Split-Backspace: If I built the keyboard with this option and later changed my mind, could I simply remove the spring from the extra barrel using the "sharpened chopstick" method, or would I also need to remove the flipper, which would require opening up the plates?

Split-Right_Shift: Is this an option? (I would want this only if it could result in a 1.75x Right Shift and a 1.00x key to the right of Right Shift).

[Phenix]

Thanks for your input, Techno Trousers!
For round 1.5: Will there be two different kinds of cases - one with WInkey, one without?
I like the idea of an MF with split space+winkeys...

[Techno Trousers]

Thanks for your input, Techno Trousers!
For round 1.5: Will there be two different kinds of cases - one with WInkey, one without?
I like the idea of an MF with split space+winkeys...

I haven't seen any preliminary plans from lot_lizard, but he's been really great about incorporating community feedback into his project. I'm sure we're going to be very happy with the ultimate case design(s) and final results. Keep an eye on the Model MF workshop thread--I expect the case discussion to start there in earnest once this group buy is complete. It'll probably make sense for him to start an all new thread for the flat plate buckling spring phase 2.

[Phenix]

that's true.
Will need to look up shipping costs to Germany..

[POTV]

By the way - has a team been found to handle the assembly process and shipping, or is that a smaller issue?

[fohat]

could I simply remove the spring from the extra barrel using the "sharpened chopstick" method, or would I also need to remove the flipper, which would require opening up the plates?

I have never removed a spring with the "Chopstick of Death" method, but I think that you would need to remove the pivot plate ("flipper" or "foot") since without the spring it would be free to flop around.

With the bolted design it would take a while, just because there would be a lot of screwing and unscrewing, but there is no "traumatic" effort like you find in a real Model F re-assembly.

[Hypersphere]

@fohat: Thanks for the insights! As everyone probably knows by now, I like to remap all my keyboards to a HHKB-like layout. However, I've managed this with a standard IBM SSK just fine without a split Backspace, split Right Shift, or Win keys. So, although some of these options exist with the MF drop-in kit, I will probably keep the stock SSK layout.

Yeah -- I remember the plate tectonics involved in re-assembling my XT! And that's nothing compared to the larger Model F boards. I recall your ANSI mod of an F122 battleship -- quite an undertaking! Something that is still on my to-do list -- after I stock up on more heavy-duty clamps. However, one thing that made my XT project somewhat difficult is that I used fairly thick silicone sponge for the new foam layer -- this provided substantial friction against sliding the plates back together.

[XMIT]

[O]ne thing that made my XT project somewhat difficult is that I used fairly thick silicone sponge for the new foam layer -- this provided substantial friction against sliding the plates back together.

Maybe spray both sides with a Teflon dry spray?

[Techno Trousers]

@fohat: I recall your ANSI mod of an F122 battleship -- quite an undertaking! Something that is still on my to-do list -- after I stock up on more heavy-duty clamps.

Oh, boy I did that one too, and it had me at the edge of a mental and physical breakdown after multiple attempts with plenty of clamps and "art store" foam. I even bent the steel tab on one side I was working it so hard. I finally succeeded only by punching and swapping in some thinner foam.

One of the best things to come out of this project is lot_lizard's new screw-together plate and layered foam system. It may seem like a pain to those new to buckling spring, but trust me, reassembly is going to be like heaven compared to the original method!

[fohat]

it had me at the edge of a mental and physical breakdown after multiple attempts with plenty of clamps

reassembly is going to be like heaven compared to the original method!

There are 2 sides to this coin.

While the wrestling match is a nightmare, the result is an assembly that is under a constant and significant medley of tension and compression (enhanced by the thicker and denser modern foams). I believe that it is this balance of pressure that makes a Model F truly "alive" and gives it the "ringing" or even, as one person put it, "singing" quality.

My trepidation about all of these "revival" projects is that they will miss reproducing the internal struggles that give the Model F its life.

[BinaryHalibut]

I mean, bolts should theoretically provide the same effect if they're tight enough and the plates still have the slight curvature differences that cause the tension.

That being said, I never found it that terrible to reassemble model Fs. It was pretty bad the first few times, but after taking apart/putting together my 122 a few times due to flipper seating screwups it takes less than 10 minutes with a few clamps and a mallet. And XTs can be done almost entirely by hand with the stock foam, and with new foam getting some clamps on it makes it pretty manageable.

Though yeah, the first time I put the 122 back together it took like half an hour and I put a dent in my desk. And when I put all the keys back on it didn't work.

[Scarpia]

This is such a cool initiative, thanks lot_lizard and pals for putting in all the work to make this happen. If I hadn't already spent more than enough on keyboards this year (curse Ellipse's awesome Kishsavers) this would be at the op of my wish list. And at a ridiculously generous price for a totally customizeable kit, too!

Secretly I am hoping the FSSK project and this one will eventually leave me with the last remaining M-SSK made with original parts.... since you are all going to store your original inner assemblies on top of a stack of pizza slices in a damp basement with rats and toxic waste dripping from the ceiling. Right? RIGHT??

Spoiler:

Okay so maybe I'm a little jealous

[alh84001]

Some of us have cut M cases to put in our orphaned SSK assemblies in

[Scarpia]

Some of us have cut M cases to put in our orphaned SSK assemblies in

Tell me that you at least glued them together with asbestos

[fohat]

I mean, bolts should theoretically provide the same effect if they're tight enough and the plates still have the slight curvature differences that cause the tension.

That being said, I never found it that terrible to reassemble model Fs. It was pretty bad the first few times, but after taking apart/putting together my 122 a few times due to flipper seating screwups it takes less than 10 minutes with a few clamps and a mallet. And XTs can be done almost entirely by hand with the stock foam, and with new foam getting some clamps on it makes it pretty manageable.

Though yeah, the first time I put the 122 back together it took like half an hour and I put a dent in my desk. And when I put all the keys back on it didn't work.

I can't agree in advance, but *maybe* we will get lucky.

I just feel like IBM got it right and it took a bunch of engineers, a big shop, time, and a factory.

And yes, after doing the re-assembly a couple of dozen times it gets much more straightforward.

[Hypersphere]

Remember the fishing line trick for getting the XT spacebar back into place? Another drama that the FSSK will spare for us!

[giokkk]

Remember the fishing line trick for getting the XT spacebar back into place? Another drama that the FSSK will spare for us!

You bring up a nightmare hyper, the fishing line trick and bending the spacebar spring in order to reduce the effort actuation!!

It has been really challenging, I've tried several times before I can reach a good result.

From my little experience I have found that choosing an appropiate foam makes the difference in all model F and the original IBM (the one posted by Ellipse times ago) is still the best foam, a perfect blend between sound and typing feeling.

[fohat]

Remember the fishing line trick for getting the XT spacebar back into place?

That whole "under-carriage" device was probably needed because the space bar on the small ones was a mile long.

When doing the ANSI-mod with Alt keys, trimming that device comes in handy for stabilizing the new barrels.

The 122-key terminals were rational.