Round 5 and Round 6 kits for sale!

Wodan · 17 Nov 2016, 19:02

SP will love all the refunds people are yelling for. No way they are going to get into that game.

khongthenhuvay · 17 Nov 2016, 19:53

How about the rest 29% ? It's very hard to sell your leftovers this time because many new SA keysets are going to be released. Phase 2 will never be completed!

phinix · 17 Nov 2016, 20:43

7bit wrote: ↑I've already asked and they said no. I guess they don't want to mess with too many little payments.

However, this is quite a long time ago.

BTW: 20% is wrong, it is about 40%.

With what we have ready to pay: 50%, or 2 of 4 colors that could be produced right now.

And with all unpaid orders (many are already paid but not reported to the bot): 71%, or 3 of 4 colors that could be produced right now.

Maybe we could explain them that we have a problem collecting all those payments. If they created their own paypal account, peeps could start making payments on it. We would keep a log of payments so we would know how much they got of our money.
But yeah, they will probably say no again...

Wodan · 17 Nov 2016, 21:21

khongthenhuvay wrote: ↑How about the rest 29% ? It's very hard to sell your leftovers this time because many new SA keysets are going to be released. Phase 2 will never be completed!

Look at the Round6 leftovers ... all those keys are up for production or already produced but no one ordered/paid them yet. Other GB only start production after all the money has been collected and only produce what has already been sold.

Once the first phase has been sorted and pictures hit reddit and other hype platforms, leftovers will sell much better. Where else can you get SA caps in stock?

Wodan · 17 Nov 2016, 21:34

phinix wrote: ↑ Maybe we could explain them that we have a problem collecting all those payments. If they created their own paypal account, peeps could start making payments on it. We would keep a log of payments so we would know how much they got of our money.
But yeah, they will probably say no again...

Look at all the refund drama here. People overpay or cancel their orders and want their money back. No one wants to deal with that. When you let people pay for keycaps over Paypal in such a marathon GB, you are pretty much f**ed. This GB was never designed to deliver within the 6 months dispute window ... people can just open a dispute and take their money back while you have probably forwarded the funds to SP long ago.

I can understand when 7bit says: Pay by SEPA or GoogleWallet or find yourself a proxy.

infodroid · 17 Nov 2016, 21:44

Wodan wrote: ↑ I can understand when 7bit says: Pay by SEPA or GoogleWallet or find yourself a proxy.

But this situation is not good long term. Because it means less people can participate, so all kits become more expensive.

mecano · 18 Nov 2016, 00:47

7bit wrote: ↑

Quizz of the day : "How many waffeln a day does it take to be able to sort so many caps?"

Schneimj · 18 Nov 2016, 09:25

I completely understand why people are upset because round 5B was split in to two phases due to, what appears to be, a lack of funds to do it all at once. Why, or how, could there be a lack of funds? Either the 30 day pay window was a soft deadline, or 7bit left the window open so people kept buying. With an outstanding amount of ~$10k, it seems the deadline was soft. What appears to have happened was 7bit took funds from people who paid and sent off Round 5B phase 1 orders to get manufactured. So now there is a shortage of $$ for Round 2 and we're trying to play catch up. If this isn't the case, the simple solution is to CANCEL all orders >30 days old with no payment and get the money over to SP for fab within the next 30 days. That way we can expect to receive the caps MAYBE sometime in 2017, maybe.

What round are we on now anyways, 5B, 6, 7? Nobody has received any caps from any of these 7bit run GBs, and the shortage of funds will keep getting passed from one round to another.

I cannot recommend anyone joining this GB until a clear response is received from 7bit on what is going on. There is far too much thrash in this GB now and it's toxic with the amount of people demanding refunds. There are clearly issues with what 7bit is saying and what SP reps are saying. AVOID THIS GB. And for those of you who joined, including myself, be prepared for a let down and loss of $$. This is exactly why companies like MD run the GBs now.

7bit · 18 Nov 2016, 10:25

Phase 1 was paid for for months and had been produced until a few weeks ago and guess what:

Next week they produce 1.25 units modifiers, 100x each becuase they only send me 25.

The main trouble right now is that there is no person to collect PayPal money and that SL89 did not send a complete update, so I have no idea who paid and who paid not. There are $10,000 unpaid (or not yet reported).

BTW: We had to pay about $10,000 extra for the keys with the too small legends. This had not been planned for.

mecano · 18 Nov 2016, 10:36

Schneimj wrote: ↑ What round are we on now anyways, 5B, 6, 7? Nobody has received any caps from any of these 7bit run GBs, and the shortage of funds will keep getting passed from one round to another.

I cannot recommend anyone joining this GB until a clear response is received from 7bit on what is going on. There is far too much thrash in this GB now and it's toxic with the amount of people demanding refunds. There are clearly issues with what 7bit is saying and what SP reps are saying. AVOID THIS GB. And for those of you who joined, including myself, be prepared for a let down and loss of $$. This is exactly why companies like MD run the GBs now.

Says the man in his first post-

Mind you this is a community forum not an online shop community.

While I perfectly understand what you are saying, it looks like you clearly don't have a clue about this GB, red through the different threads and took the time to evaluate several factors before joining in.

If you really want to compare MD and 7bit, here is my own little experience about it ;
MD : I'm still waiting for replacement caps (missing profiles caps and mixed colors) from MD from the first Plank drop even after 3 tickets, after more than a year and several promises from them. People got counterfeit Shure microphones from them, etc.
Not trying to put MD down, there are doing a good job imoh overall experience, and I can't deny they are responsive and friendly, but sometimes it seems this isn't enough…
7bit : The one time I got an error on one cap, it was fixed with the following shipment.

Last time I asked Melissa, along informations for a completly different possible run, about probabilities about faulty R6 presence in the last grab bags she replied that faulty caps are sent to the production runner only, I let you guys judge about this one. Maybe there was a misunderstanding somewhere, afterall it looks like she is quiet busy responding to mass mailing

On the other hand, I personaly don't think it is her role to answer to production troubles/funding questions to customers for multiple reasons the majority of companies in the world have adopted for a long time. Adding noise and confusion is one of them among others ethical and practical reasons. I came to the conclusion she is defending her business and I personaly find this stance harmfull for all parts taking in account that from my own experience the informations were not quiet accurate (you can browse here and GH for examples) - there are probably good reasons for this I guess -without irony-

You are not helping anyone here quiet the opposite, you are even shooting yourself in the foot, do you realize this or just trolling?
Oh fine, 7bit just responded

Wodan · 18 Nov 2016, 11:05

Schneimj wrote: ↑I completely understand why people are upset because round 5B was split in to two phases due to, what appears to be, a lack of funds to do it all at once. Why, or how, could there be a lack of funds?

Because this GB went into production long before all items were sold. If you failed to notice that, you should check your definition of the term "leftovers" and "extras" and read the wiki page of this GB before joining. There's still tons of caps from Round6 available for purchase and guess what - they also haven't been paid yet by anybody. Most of your other statemens also imply that you have a grave misundestanding of how this GB is working. But starting a campaign to stop people from joning this GB just because of your mismanaged expectations is pretty ignorant and harmful. Tons of people have received their Round5 caps and 7bit has posted pictures of the first batch of Round6 keycaps.

Just to raise your awareness, initial production of Phase1 was scheduled in SPRING by SP and they reason these caps only just arrived is because there were tons of issues with wrong legends and keycaps had to be remade ... remaking a couple of keycaps took them almost half a year!

Schneimj wrote: ↑ Nobody has received any caps from any of these 7bit run GBs

LIE!
How can you come up with such crap?!

Schneimj wrote: ↑ I cannot recommend anyone joining this GB until a clear response is received from 7bit on what is going on. There is far too much thrash in this GB now and it's toxic with the amount of people demanding refunds. There are clearly issues with what 7bit is saying and what SP reps are saying.

I've said it tons of times before and I'll say it again. This GB is VERY different from all other GBs. By the amount of keycaps, colors and kits offered. If you are expecting the same straightforward fulfillment you get from Massdrop, you are going to be disapointed. A large part of the keycaps went into production _LONG_ before the whole GB was paid for. That's the drawback of the complexity of this gb ... if you do not like that or can't live with that you shouldn't have joined in the first place. People have been saying this won't fullfill before 2017 a long time ago and it seems they're right. Who is supposed to pay SP for the kits that are available as extras but not ordered/paid yet?

I also don't understand why people can get refunds for their paid orders. If I was running this GB there wouldn't be any refunds. Half the people are screaming "PAY SP" and the other half is screaming "I CHANGED MY MIND, REFUND ME" ... Who is supposed to pay for refunds once SP has been fully paid?

Schneimj wrote: ↑ AVOID THIS GB. And for those of you who joined, including myself, be prepared for a let down and loss of $$. This is exactly why companies like MD run the GBs now.

Prepare for a let down if you joined this GB with the wrong expectations. There is no indication we have to be prepared for a loss of $$! Stop making up harmful claims just because you're salty. Half the keycaps haven't only been paid for but they have also (except for MORE MISSING KEYS => SP!!!) been produced and delivered. Whats left to be paid has either been paid to SP, sold and not paid to 7bit or not been sold yet. When people claim that 29% of the funds are still missing, that's 29% of PHASE2, probably like 15% of the whole GB! Now take a good look at the HONEYB leftovers and you will realize that matches more than well:

Spoiler:

Put it in Excel and multiply column 2 with column 3 (pcs left * unit price) and you will realize that keycaps worth sales value 28'690$ haven't been ordered yet. 14'867$ worth of these keycaps still up for ordering are part of Phase1 and will soon be in stock for sale including plenty of alpha and HYPER7 keybard kits.

If you feel like I'm being insulting or harsh, stop lying to support your attempts at sabotaging this GB. This is not the US elections, anyone with a calculator can check the claims I made and stop being surprised that almost 30k worth of unsold keycaps from Round6 kinda explain why SP hasn't been paid in full.

Ail · 18 Nov 2016, 13:23

Class action law suit!

Just kidding.

I think the worst part of all of this for me was that I paid well in advance of phase 1, but many of the caps I ordered are in phase2 from what I remember reading. So whomever's caps I helped pay for, you're welcome. Actually worse yet, I don't even want an SA set anymore. My only hope lies in eventually getting the caps, and reselling them for a small profit.

7bit · 18 Nov 2016, 17:04

Calm down!

At least those who will soon (before Christmas) get their SPH, BLUE and CADET keys. I've finished the CADET keys today. Tomorrow come all those TKL, TENKELESS and ALPH kits in blue and SPH grey.

I will post some photos tomorrow.

zslane · 18 Nov 2016, 19:16

Two things come to mind as I ponder the situation 7bit is in.

1. 7bit's group buys are too big for the way they are executed. Too many kits are offered, which requires too much pre-paid money to arrive before production can begin. This leads to excruciatingly long delays, especially given how failure to pay means getting bumped further back in an ever-growing backlog of other SA keysets.

2. 7bit refuses to create a proper online store interface for purchases. I'm sure that he feels that he is doing everyone a favor (including himself) by avoiding the fees that come with using a service that will handle all currencies and sources of payment (like PayPal or SEPA or credit cards directly). But I think he is cutting off the nose to spite the face and actually making matter worse, not better. Sometimes saving people a little bit of money isn't worth all the nightmares that come from trying to handle all the money through volunteer proxies and other such nonsense.

Until 7bit radically alters the way he runs his group buys, these problems are going to continue to plague them. I am not optimistic that Round 7 will go any more smoothly. Nevertheless, I want my Cadet and Honey keys more than I want my (considerable sum of) money back, so I will be sticking with Round 6 to the bitter end. I hope everyone else does the same.

Menuhin · 18 Nov 2016, 19:38

C'mon, I want to have my SPH, BLUE and CADET keys in the future although I missed round 6, and the full kit for the more authentic look of Space Cadet is no longer present in the "leftover".

7bit (and his team) is doing a favor for all other members indeed.

Ail · 18 Nov 2016, 20:43

zslane wrote: ↑Two things come to mind as I ponder the situation 7bit is in.

1. 7bit's group buys are too big for the way they are executed. Too many kits are offered, which requires too much pre-paid money to arrive before production can begin. This leads to excruciatingly long delays, especially given how failure to pay means getting bumped further back in an ever-growing backlog of other SA keysets.

2. 7bit refuses to create a proper online store interface for purchases. I'm sure that he feels that he is doing everyone a favor (including himself) by avoiding the fees that come with using a service that will handle all currencies and sources of payment (like PayPal or SEPA or credit cards directly). But I think he is cutting off the nose to spite the face and actually making matter worse, not better. Sometimes saving people a little bit of money isn't worth all the nightmares that come from trying to handle all the money through volunteer proxies and other such nonsense.

Until 7bit radically alters the way he runs his group buys, these problems are going to continue to plague them. I am not optimistic that Round 7 will go any more smoothly. Nevertheless, I want my Cadet and Honey keys more than I want my (considerable sum of) money back, so I will be sticking with Round 6 to the bitter end. I hope everyone else does the same.

Point number two is the biggest problem. The fact that the GB came to a screeching halt because no one is willing to collect money is insane. I would have rather paid $20 in fees than see this happen. Not to mention the responsibilities involved for the volunteers. Collecting large sums of money from what will likely end up as angry and impatient customers does not sound enticing. It's one thing to run in to delays because the usual group buy pitfalls, but this seems wholly unecessary.

Enough complaining though for a minute as I have a legit question. I keep periodically recieving invoice updates to my e-mail is that supposed to happen? I'm already paid in full so I really only need to know when the set is shipped.

Ail · 18 Nov 2016, 20:48

7bit wrote: ↑Phase 1 was paid for for months and had been produced until a few weeks ago and guess what:

Next week they produce 1.25 units modifiers, 100x each becuase they only send me 25.

The main trouble right now is that there is no person to collect PayPal money and that SL89 did not send a complete update, so I have no idea who paid and who paid not. There are $10,000 unpaid (or not yet reported).

BTW: We had to pay about $10,000 extra for the keys with the too small legends. This had not been planned for.

Did SP make you buy them, or did you just offer to take them? That had to be an error on their part, surely?

zslane · 18 Nov 2016, 21:21

Ail wrote: ↑Did SP make you buy them, or did you just offer to take them? That had to be an error on their part, surely?

The "too small legends" error is the result of 7bit using an unreliable graphics format to define his custom legends, combined with Signature Plastics not going to greater lengths to catch the (inevitable) scaling mistakes that result from that. It took two to dance that particular tango...

infodroid · 18 Nov 2016, 21:25

zslane wrote: ↑ The "too small legends" error is the result of 7bit using an unreliable graphics format to define his custom legends, combined with Signature Plastics not going to greater lengths to catch the (inevitable) scaling mistakes that result from that.

This was not caught in production samples?

zslane · 18 Nov 2016, 21:31

infodroid wrote: ↑
zslane wrote: ↑ The "too small legends" error is the result of 7bit using an unreliable graphics format to define his custom legends, combined with Signature Plastics not going to greater lengths to catch the (inevitable) scaling mistakes that result from that.
This was not caught in production samples?

Apparently not.

I think the "production sample" phase was a bit rushed due to how far behind the entire GB was at that point. The errors that were caught immediately after initial production--and which caused a fun little delay--were errors in some of the international legends (like the yen symbol) which SP mistakenly made with old legend plates that they should have junked a long time ago. I'm fairly certain SP ate the cost of fixing those. But the Space Cadet alpha legends being too small seem to have slipped through in the mad rush to get phase 1 finally out the door.

infodroid · 18 Nov 2016, 23:01

I finally found a photo of the "small" cadet legends several pages back. To be honest they look like masterpieces compared to the artless legends that appear in so many popular community group buys. Heck some people might even prefer them to the "large" legends. 7bit should not have any trouble selling them.

zslane · 19 Nov 2016, 00:34

No, I don't think they look bad at all either, and if they were the only form of the Cadet legends available, I'd be fine with them. But 7bit is a perfectionist and wants to get it right, which I applaud.

Ail · 19 Nov 2016, 02:51

Yeah I think I prefer those as well, but I also did not order Cadets anyway. Crazy how they produced $10,000 worth of them before going, "oops." You're right though, those will sell.

7bit · 19 Nov 2016, 11:26

I still need someone to collect PayPal money!!!!

tofagerl · 19 Nov 2016, 13:43

I think what you need to do is turn your operation into a for profit store with a proper payment provider and a website.

rominronin · 19 Nov 2016, 18:17

7bit wrote: ↑ I will post some photos tomorrow.

YAY!

7bit wrote: ↑I still need someone to collect PayPal money!!!!

I was considering collecting PayPal money for the buy, but then I thought 'why don't you collect it?' - I seem to remember there being a reason - something to do with being in the EU?

I'm also in the EU, does that mean I can't?

Schneimj · 19 Nov 2016, 22:54

How can you not expect people to get salty when you take their money to manufacturer phase 1, then let everyone know money is short for phase 2 and put the entire GB on hold indefinitely? It's clear from those of you whom aren't frustrated which phase your caps will be in. HONEYB should have never been split into two phases.

Wodan wrote: ↑Who is supposed to pay SP for the kits that are available as extras but not ordered/paid yet?

EASY! You close the ordering window. Those who haven't paid have 30 days to get their money in, then it all goes to SP. Why is this difficult to understand? Why do we even care about kits that haven't been ordered? Don't buy them! Didn't meet the MOQ, too bad, here is your money back. You're putting the entire GB on hold to pay SP for keycaps that you hope someone will buy in the future. Brilliant. Way to screw over the people that joined early. Your message here is "don't join the GB just wait for the extras/leftovers" which, if everyone did that, would sink the GB.

khongthenhuvay wrote: ↑How about the rest 29% ? It's very hard to sell your leftovers this time because many new SA keysets are going to be released. Phase 2 will never be completed!

Will they sell? Probably. The keycaps look great. With all the SA sets getting produced now how quickly will people buy them up? Guess we will find out with phase 2.

Wodan wrote: ↑There is no indication we have to be prepared for a loss of $$!

As I said, the shortage of funds will keep getting passed from one GB to another. Using R6P1 to pay for missing R6P2 $$, funds from R6P2 to pay for R7. Good luck getting out of that cycle, hope you aren't in the last GB.

zslane · 19 Nov 2016, 23:45

Half of my order is in phase 1 and half is in phase 2. I guess that makes me only half frustrated?

I'm not sure how closing the pre-order window helps phase 2. If 7bit kills all the unpaid orders, then there will only be sufficient funds to get about half of phase 2 manufactured. So what happens to the other half of phase 2?

Does 7bit cancel the other half of phase 2 (and which kits would that half comprise?) and return everyone's money who ordered those kits? Like I said, I'd rather have the keycaps than have my money back, so that solution doesn't appeal to me.

Does 7bit wait for enough new orders to cover the other half of phase 2? That puts him in the same position he's in now of waiting for people to order and pay for stuff. Oh, and even if a thousand people from the US were lined up and ready to pay, he has no PayPal proxy to handle their payments.

Does 7bit pay for all of phase 2, paying for what isn't covered by orders with his own money in the hopes of selling those kits later as "leftovers"? I'm sure he's willing to do that for a few kits here and there, but not for half of phase 2. I don't think he has that kind of cash available in the first place.

In any event, he can't really proceed forward with any plan until he gets an update from SL89 as to who has paid, what they've paid for, and who hasn't paid, and what they failed to pay for (so he knows what is still in "leftover inventory").

Menuhin · 20 Nov 2016, 02:09

rominronin wrote: ↑
7bit wrote: ↑ I will post some photos tomorrow.

YAY!

7bit wrote: ↑I still need someone to collect PayPal money!!!!

I was considering collecting PayPal money for the buy, but then I thought 'why don't you collect it?' - I seem to remember there being a reason - something to do with being in the EU?

I'm also in the EU, does that mean I can't?

I also want to help as a volunteer, but 7bit didn't explain it clearly about why he needs people to collect money for him.
I speculate it has to do with tax. PayPal activities are highly monitored and recorded. By having each PayPal collector wire-transfer him a few thousand Euros, and not setting up any business by himself officially, it is possible that he can go totally under the radar under the German tax system.
I'm not sure how much profit is involved if there is any, it seems to simplify life for him. Germany law is super strict on tax and everything related, unlike the US or Asia.

Griffy · 20 Nov 2016, 11:01

This is a crazy situation. There could be money to collect and we don't even know?

I would do it but I'm like totally in the EU...

Could we bribe SL to do it one last time?

Offer him some leftovers?