Alps Appreciation

[Mattr567]

Interesting. My testing wasn't very scientific so I believe you The cushion threw me off a bit too. SKCL Striped Amber is lighter yet has more cushion? Might just be down to the way the spring is coiled. Weight and Cushion don't go exactly hand in hand as it turns out.

The LED SKCL Green's being heavier is very weird to me. Try putting a LED Green spring in a normal Green and see if it's heavier.

[E3E]

Yep, there's something funky about these LED Greens. They definitely have a heavier spring compared to standard SKCL Greens. Compared the spring to an SKCL Cream spring and it's different.

I think I'll compare with the spacebar SKCL Green next and see if they're the same or not.

Yeah, regarding cushion, switches like MX Clear have that kind of ramp up near the bottom. It could be similar. I love the cushion of SKCL Brown and the Striped Ambers.

Surprising/not surprisingly. the SKCL Green space bar switch is 80g

So that puts it up there with SKCL Grey. I'm going to have to measure SKCL Amber now.

SKCL Amber seems to be 87.5-90g to completely bottom out.

[Hypersphere]

Here is a force-displacement curve for Cherry mx clear:

Clear-force.png (5.4 KiB) Viewed 6626 times

The curve has the greatest slope of any Cherry mx switch. I like to bottom out my keystrokes, and because of the steeply rising force past actuation, I found mx clears too tiring for long typing sessions.

It would be good if someone could generate force-displacement curves for the various types of Alps switches and post these on the DT wiki.

I've often seen the following composite of force-displacement curves for some of the major categories of Alps, but it would be helpful to see separate curves plotted to the same scale. I am not completely colorblind, but I have difficulty distinguishing certain colors -- therefore, when several plots are shown on the same graph with the curves identified only by color, I start to run into trouble.

alps-force.gif (7.81 KiB) Viewed 6626 times

[Hypersphere]

Here is a compilation of Alps switches with actuation or bottom-out weights in grams:

Code: Select all

Switch Type                         Source
-----------------------------------------------------------------
                   A (Actuation)   B (Actuation)   C (Bottom-out)
					---------------------------------------------
Amber SKCL                                         87.5 - 90
Amber SKCL Striped  55							        55
Black SKCM          69             65	
Blue  SKCL          55
Blue SKCM           70             65 - 72	
Brown SKCL                                         70
Brown SKCM                         75	
Cream SKCL          70                             70
Cream SKCM          70		
Cream SKCM Damped   69		
Green SKCL          50             50              50
Green SKCL Spacebar                                80
Green SKCL LED                                     67.5
Green SKCM          69		
Grey SKCL           88		
Orange SKCM                        60	
Pink/Salmon SKCM                   65 - 70	
White SKCM          69             65              65
White damped SKCM                  60              60
Yellow SKCL         59                             60

Sources:

A = DT Wiki on SKCL/SKCM Alps series wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series
B = Reddit Keyboard Stiffness Database https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... /ripometer
C = This thread, E3E results.

[PollandAkuma]

[Hypersphere]

@PollandAkuma: Did you have a question or comment? If you are trying to copy the table with proper aligning, if you "select all" of the code and paste it into a text editor such as Notepad++ or gedit, you should get a properly aligned table. It will also work with MS word if you use the "keep source formatting" option to paste. Either way, you also need to use a monospace (fixed-with or non-proportional) font.

[E3E]

I should clarify that my measurements were for bottom out weight only. The actuation and bottom out weights don't vary much on most switches, but some do have some differences. SKCL Brown actuates at 60g and bottoms at 70g, for example.

I think you did keep this in mind though!

[Hypersphere]

@E3E: Yes, I noted that in the table headings -- your data are column "C", which indicates bottom-out. The other sources indicated that their data were for actuation.

I think there could be some confusion about actuation and bottom-out "weights" or forces and how to measure each one. For example, on the Matias site, they indicate that their Click switches actuate at 60 +/- 5 g and bottom out at 35 +/- 5 g. It would be interesting to know how these forces were measured.

The Matias figures do not specify what the errors are in their data, e.g., mean and SEM, mean and SD, mean and 95% confidence interval, or mean and range. If I had to guess, I would suppose they are range values, so that actuation is 55g to 65g. If this is typical of actuation measurements for Alps-type switches, then there would be quite a lot of overlap in switch weights across many of the switch types.

Did you measure the bottom-out weight for SKCM Orange switches?

[Rainman]

Quick question guys.. Just ordered a KBP v60 with matias click and wonder where I can harvest PBT keycapd? i found a seller online selling old DELL AT101W, does it have abs or pbt keycaps? Please respond.

[emdude]

Quick question guys.. Just ordered a KBP v60 with matias click and wonder where I can harvest PBT keycapd? i found a seller online selling old DELL AT101W, does it have abs or pbt keycaps? Please respond.

ABS. PBT Alps key caps in a modern 104-key layout are practically nonexistent, AFAIK.

[Hypersphere]

Quick question guys.. Just ordered a KBP v60 with matias click and wonder where I can harvest PBT keycapd? i found a seller online selling old DELL AT101W, does it have abs or pbt keycaps? Please respond.

On my V60MTS boards, I use PBT alphanumeric keycaps and ABS from Matias for the modifiers and spacebar. Some keyboards that have PBT keycaps include Apple AEK, IBM 5140, SGI Bigfoot series, and Wang725-3770.

If you don't mind ABS, there are quite a few vintage Alps-mount boards with nice doubleshot caps. In addition, some old laptops such as the Toshiba T1200 have nice thick doubleshot Alps-mount ABS caps. You can also get laser-etched or blank sets from Matias, and there are Tai-Bao doubleshot sets available from various vendors.

[Menuhin]

Quick question guys.. Just ordered a KBP v60 with matias click and wonder where I can harvest PBT keycapd? i found a seller online selling old DELL AT101W, does it have abs or pbt keycaps? Please respond.

If you don't mind something very modern and ABS:
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/e-element-rgb-keyboard

(They can make a board like this in Alps cap format (almost) dirt cheap with so many features hot swappable etc, yet, they implement a switch socket design different from traditional Alps switches, totally excluding them. They can make a board with basic standard design and fully programmable easily, if the sockets are compatible with Alps, they'll sell a lot more, people will probably buy just for the PCB.)

[Hypersphere]

The RBG keyboard on Massdrop with Alps stems has Outemu (Cherry mx clone) switches. I have not tried Outemu switches, but reviews I have seen indicate that they are inferior to Cherry mx and some other clones, such as Gateron. It seems weird that they would use an mx-clone switch with an Alps-mount stem, considering the scarcity of Alps-mount keycaps.

[Hak Foo]

That's a real head-scratcher. What could using an Alps-like stem do for them, aside from making it less appetizing to the people who want to do keycap swaps?

There may be some corner-case situations where the ALPS mount is preferrable, but after 25 years, nobody's really been able to isolate them.

[PollandAkuma]

I have a question too, how hard is it to desolder switches from terminal boards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Menuhin]

Didn't know those switches with Alps stems have Cherry internal construction..! It is then possible also to have Chinese manufacturers create some MX stems / stem converters for Alps switches. It's just a matter of cost effectiveness. Then the key caps problem can be partially solved.

@PollandAkuma
I'm going to do some of these too, at least to convert the bottom row of a 60% hot-swappable. Let's see. It's just a process of trial and error. Hope the worst case is desoldering a bent pin.

[mike52787]

I have a question too, how hard is it to desolder switches from terminal boards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Shouldnt be any harder than desoldering anything else, as long as the legs arent bent over.

[Hypersphere]

Pine vs. Bamboo SKCM White Alps Switches in Northgate Omnikey 101 ANSI Keyboards -- S/N Correlation:

Recently, I acquired a Northgate Omnikey 101 (ANSI) in pristine condition. However, while testing it, I was surprised to find that the sound and feel of this keyboard were not as good as other keyboards of the same make and model. Upon closer inspection, I realized that the pristine keyboard had the newer "Bamboo" switches (without slits in the upper switch housing), whereas the boards with better sound and feel had the older "Pine" switches (with slits in the upper switch housing).

Here is an illustration of the two types of switches (from the DT wiki):

Alps_Slits.JPG (22.23 KiB) Viewed 6368 times

wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series

I've done some experiments swapping components from different type of switches into Bamboo white Alps. I have some Orange Alps switches that have the Pine tops. After trying various combinations of sliders, springs, tactile/click leaves, and top housings, I found that for a given spring and tactile/click leaf, the main contributor to the sound and feel of the switch was the top housing. It would be possible to swap the housings with those from Orange switches, but depending on price and availability, it might be cheaper and easier to start with a keyboard in good to excellent condition that already had Pine switches.

Here are some S/N data on Northgate Omnikey 101 US ANSI White Alps keyboards, with an indication of whether the white Alps switches are Pine (with slits) or Bamboo (without slits):

1081779 – Pine (Slits)
1128676 – Pine (Slits)
1132628 – Pine (Slits)
1155854 – Bamboo (No Slits)
1160507 – Bamboo (No Slits)

The lower S/N numbers (presumably with an earlier date of manufacture) have the more desirable Pine switches. It appears that the transition occurred somewhere between 1132628 and 1155854, but certainly keyboards with serial numbers below 1132628 should have Pine switches.

[PerniciousPony]

I thought you guys might like this. I'm not active on DT but use your wiki constantly

SKCM Browns with a SKCM Blue on Esc and a Cream SKCL Lock switch.

Silver Carbon Fiber plate in a FMJ 60% Case with a Alps64 PCB inside.

[ramnes]

Very nice. I know some people that are going to be dead jealous!

[lancre]

That's just beautiful. Where are the brown alps from? They look very clean and shiny!

I'm curious as to how it sounds. Does the form factor and the more modern materials used in this case affect the quality of the sound at all?

[ramnes]

A typing test video would be nice.

[Hypersphere]

@PerniciousPony: Welcome to DT! An auspicious beginning! Excellent board. What made you decide upon SKCM Brown Alps for the main typing area of your board? What layout are you using? I assume you don't use the traditional CapsLock position as Ctrl, given your choice of a locking switch there.

BTW, my all-time favorite board is the HHKB Pro 2 with silenced and lubed 45g Topre switches. I also like IBM capacitive buckling springs (Model F) and various Alps, especially SKCM Pine White Alps and SKCM Blue Alps. I have a custom 60% with SKCM Brown Alps -- I like the extreme tactility, but it gets tiring in long typing sessions.

[PerniciousPony]

I'll try to get a sound test out, but I don't have a good mic. Also, I'm not sure how the materials would have affected the sound as I never got a chance to use the switches in their original board.

The board was built with the intention of using DSA Light cycle, but with the GB being cancelled I'm stuck in a weird situation for caps. I was in for just the standard 60% layout, and that's why I have the board in a standard 60% layout, which is not so standard for alps. All the donor boards I've got generally use tsangan bottom rows, so I can only use the bottom row from my Dell AT101W. The alphas are some nice chicony doubleshots, and the other mods are a mix from 3 different sets. I'm thinking about casting a set of mods so it at least looks more uniform. My main issue is the profile of the AT101W caps is really weird, and doesn't match the rest of the keys.

What made me choose browns for the main typing area was simply that I'd heard good things about them around the interwebs and someone had abandoned their project and was selling a partially desoldered magnavox videowriter. I picked it up and it was short 2 switches for the layout I wanted, hence the blue and lock switch.

So far I've had/used SKCM black/white/salmon/blue/brown. I really liked the salmons and wanted to try the browns as tactiles are generally my favorite switch type.

@Hypersphere: I also have an HHKB Pro 2 with your hyperspere rings and lube
I tried putting 55g domes in it but wasn't a fan, I actually prefer 45g topre on all boards. Right now my HHKB has a Hasu BT controller and HiPro caps on it. I use it as my travel/mobile board with my macbook.
P.S. I love your rings, I've got them on my main 3 topre boards, and will probably be buying more soon.

[Chyros]

Dericious. I'm still very curious to try out brown Alps.

[PerniciousPony]

At some point I have various weight alps springs from sprit coming in. The browns are a little too heavy for my taste, so I'm homing that I'll be able to make them lighter while maintaining their characteristics.

[webwit]

I thought you guys might like this. I'm not active on DT but use your wiki constantly

SKCM Browns with a SKCM Blue on Esc and a Cream SKCL Lock switch.

Silver Carbon Fiber plate in a FMJ 60% Case with a Alps64 PCB inside.

Bookmark: #dta2017 #dta2017BestPhoto

[Scarpia]

That is a spectacular board PerniciousPony! As a fellow brown Alps enthusiast, I love your choice in switches - including the blue on the Esc! And with that case....

Dericious. I'm still very curious to try out brown Alps.

I assume you mean "in a keyboard". I'm pretty sure I've seen brown Alps switches featured in your videos before

[seebart]

I thought you guys might like this. I'm not active on DT but use your wiki constantly
SKCM Browns with a SKCM Blue on Esc and a Cream SKCL Lock switch. Silver Carbon Fiber plate in a FMJ 60% Case with a Alps64 PCB inside.

Hey I know you! That's some custom setup you got there, impressive. And webwit is right to add that bookmark link!

[Chyros]

That is a spectacular board PerniciousPony! As a fellow brown Alps enthusiast, I love your choice in switches - including the blue on the Esc! And with that case....

Dericious. I'm still very curious to try out brown Alps.

I assume you mean "in a keyboard". I'm pretty sure I've seen brown Alps switches featured in your videos before

Oh yeah, I own a switch, but there's nothing like trying it out for real .