Round 5 and Round 6 kits for sale!

[eddible]

Packing starts today, so shut up and send zslane more money!

Amazing. I sent you another PM about my invoice, once it's updated I can send over the cash!

[meanderingthalweg]

Hey 7bit... is there any chance that you could accommodate that request that I PM'd you about a few days ago? I'd like to know before you ship! Thanks!

[zslane]

... You also make it sound like you placed you order LAST year summer while it was THIS summer. Stop joining GBs if you don't understand how they work!

This summer. Last summer. This past summer. Semantics? In any event, I'd cut the guy some slack. I'm sure he had no idea what he was in for when he ordered; the only thing he knew was that he liked the set(s) he saw.

I think it is fair to say that a 7bit group buy is unlike any other you'll ever encounter. Someone could be very well-versed in normal keycap group buys that only take a few months and then be totally unprepared for the way a 7bit group buy unfolds, particularly with respect to the time it takes.

[gaedol]

This summer. Last summer. This past summer. Semantics? In any event, I'd cut the guy some slack. I'm sure he had no idea what he was in for when he ordered; the only thing he knew was that he liked the set(s) he saw.

Since summer has passed already, "last summer" refers (at least for me) to the one that has just finished (going back in time). I am sorry that wasn't clear enough. I guess it's clear now.

I think it is fair to say that a 7bit group buy is unlike any other you'll ever encounter. Someone could be very well-versed in normal keycap group buys that only take a few months and then be totally unprepared for the way a 7bit group buy unfolds, particularly with respect to the time it takes.

That is for sure! I would also add that, finding myself in particular circumstances, I asked for a refund rather soon after I joined (a couple of weeks, maybe?), and I pm-ed 7bit explaining my reasons. I guess he forgot, or the money was already in SP's purse. If that was the case, even just saying so would have been appreciated and would have silenced me.

[Wodan]

Hm didn't mean to sound that harsch. It just sets me off that half the people here wonder why SP hasn't been paid yet for phase 2 while the other half is asking for a refund ... only one of these two things can happen

[zslane]

Yeah, this isn't MassDrop where you can pretty much guarantee there will be enough buyers to get the most common kits past MOQ in the two weeks that the drop is open. 7bit's GBs are so huge, with so many options, that it takes forever to get funded, and every refund that someone asks for just puts the GB that much further behind any schedule 7bit might have hoped for it.

But for better or worse, we're now in the MassDrop Era where expectations are being shaped by a rather different group buying experience. A lot of future buyers will come with an unrealistic sense of how old-school community group buys should work, and be shocked by what they experience in a 7bit GB.

[Ail]

... You also make it sound like you placed you order LAST year summer while it was THIS summer. Stop joining GBs if you don't understand how they work!

I'm sure he had no idea what he was in for when he ordered; the only thing he knew was that he liked the set(s) he saw.

Sums up my experience perfectly. "Ooooo, pretty."

[XMIT]

Am I reading this correctly? Is Round 6 Round 1 shipping soon?!

I placed my own Round 6 orders in January and March of 2015, or so.

[HorrorStorm]

Yeah, this isn't MassDrop where you can pretty much guarantee there will be enough buyers to get the most common kits past MOQ in the two weeks that the drop is open. 7bit's GBs are so huge, with so many options, that it takes forever to get funded, and every refund that someone asks for just puts the GB that much further behind any schedule 7bit might have hoped for it.

But for better or worse, we're now in the MassDrop Era where expectations are being shaped by a rather different group buying experience. A lot of future buyers will come with an unrealistic sense of how old-school community group buys should work, and be shocked by what they experience in a 7bit GB.

As someone who got a refund for R6. This sounds like foolishness. What are these "old-school" group buys you speak of that 1) Have to remake keycaps because they sent the wrong format, 2) Places an order for keycaps before they have been paid, 3) Have collectors go afk for months at a time.
Sorry if competence is a "new-school" thing.

[zslane]

I wasn't a part of it (being before my time here), but I get the very strong impression that Round 5 was not much different than Round 6 in many ways.

But to be clear:

1. Certain Round 6 keycaps had to be remade for two reasons, one was SP's mistaken use of old legend plates that should have been scrapped a long time ago, and the other was due to the use of an unreliable graphics format, not the wrong format.

2. Requesting a slot in SP's production queue is not the same as placing an order with them; you can't order something without paying for it unless you are a vendor with a very special relationship with them. All that 7bit ever did was get quotes for Round 6 kits and request a production slot with the proviso that the funds would be ready to place an actual order. When the funds were not there, production kept getting pushed back. 7bit's remedy was to have half of Round 6 manufactured since he had enough funds for that. Now he finds himself trying to collect the necessary funds to complete more of the remaining kits in other colors.

3. Collectors are human; some will be reliable (for a while), and others not so much. As long as humans are part of this process, things like going afk for months at a time is an ever-present risk. There is very little actual automation in 7bit's group buy system. Most of it involves human intervention and participation. This reliance on others, rather than a secure system backed by trusted financial institutions, makes 7bit's group buy very "old school" in my view. As I understand it, it's how they were often done before the MassDrop Era.

[HorrorStorm]

I wasn't a part of it (being before my time here), but I get the very strong impression that Round 5 was not much different than Round 6 in many ways.

But to be clear:

1. Certain Round 6 keycaps had to be remade for two reasons, one was SP's mistaken use of old legend plates that should have been scrapped a long time ago, and the other was due to the use of an unreliable graphics format, not the wrong format.

2. Requesting a slot in SP's production queue is not the same as placing an order with them; you can't order something without paying for it unless you are a vendor with a very special relationship with them. All that 7bit ever did was get quotes for Round 6 kits and request a production slot with the proviso that the funds would be ready to place an actual order. When the funds were not there, production kept getting pushed back. 7bit's remedy was to have half of Round 6 manufactured since he had enough funds for that. Now he finds himself trying to collect the necessary funds to complete more of the remaining kits in other colors.

3. Collectors are human; some will be reliable (for a while), and others not so much. As long as humans are part of this process, things like going afk for months at a time is an ever-present risk. There is very little actual automation in 7bit's group buy system. Most of it involves human intervention and participation. This reliance on others, rather than a secure system backed by trusted financial institutions, makes 7bit's group buy very "old school" in my view. As I understand it, it's how they were often done before the MassDrop Era.

1. And just to be clear, who's fault is that? Are you saying it was 100% SP's fault? Based on what I read it's 7bit's fault.

2. They might as well be the same thing. The correct thing to do would have been to get multiple quotes and establish a MOQ for each set. Didn't hit the MOQ? Get a refund. I don't know how SP works, but presumbly anything over the MOQ would either be the same cost per unit or cheaper.

3. No, the issue is with not planning in advance and accepting random collectors. If he's not going to collect money himself, then he has to make sure every 3rd party person he uses is properly vetted or at least playing ball. You can't have a guy with thousands of dollars go afk for months and then say "lol he's human" and then go "We need more collectors! ". That's not how that works. You at least need the phone number and email of these people.

I'm not sure. But even if PayPal sends me a 1099, I will simply be deducting the entire amount as expenses since it will all be going to SP. The taxable income line item shouldn't be affected.

In your own words you don't know the difference between and personal and business PayPal account. So what happens if PayPal decides the hold the money?(Which they love to do). Taxes will be the least of your worries if PayPal puts a hold the money for several months. A new business account suddenly receiving and internationally transferring thousands of dollars looks like money laundering. But sure, I'm sure 7bot has already been setup with you as the collector and everyone will keep chugging along until there's a roadblock.

There's a distinct lack of planning in all of this. Just look at round 7, which to the best of my knowledge will be produced as orders hit their MOQ. You know what's going to happen in round 7? People are going to have obscure sets in limbo for years.

This isn't an "old-school" vs "new-school" issue. It's an issue with how 7bit lacks even the semblance of organizational skill and the best you'll get as an update is a one-liner with the " " emoji. The ":evilgeek:" emoji is also starting to trigger some irrational anger within me, but that's a personal issue.

[caligo]

To be fair, R5 went a lot smoother than R6 using more or less the exact same setup. It took a lot of time, but that's kind of to be expected with this amount of kits. I think some of the frustration with R6 stems from the fact that it was supposed to be a quick extra run – I only ordered some white and black keys to go with what I got from R5, and expected them to be made fairly soon (boy was I wrong).

So yeah, the setup has it's flaws, but they've been far more evident this time around than last time. And of course there's a lack of planning, seeing as people are scrambling to solve unforseen problems. But half of the orders will be shipped fairly soon. All my keys are in Phase 2 so it's not like that does me any good, but it's also not like the entire GB is stuck in limbo.

[zslane]

1. And just to be clear, who's fault is that? Are you saying it was 100% SP's fault? Based on what I read it's 7bit's fault.

The first was wholly SP's fault. The second was (IMO) 7bit's poor judgment call, followed by SP allowing it. So I feel they share the blame there.

2. They might as well be the same thing. The correct thing to do would have been to get multiple quotes and establish a MOQ for each set. Didn't hit the MOQ? Get a refund. I don't know how SP works, but presumbly anything over the MOQ would either be the same cost per unit or cheaper.

I'm certainly not defending 7bit's methods. Merely clarifying the sequence of events.

3. No, the issue is with not planning in advance and accepting random collectors. If he's not going to collect money himself, then he has to make sure every 3rd party person he uses is properly vetted or at least playing ball.

I'd like to know what passes for "properly vetting" in the mech keyboard community. It looks to me like an informal collective of passionate hobbyists, most of whom have little to no business experience, and whom prefer to run group buys as a labor of love, not as a professional endeavor. In this environment, little happens without a healthy dose of trust between members, however unwise that may seem.

So what happens if PayPal decides the hold the money?(Which they love to do).

Then the remainder of Round 6 will continue to get pushed back. There are plenty of potential obstacles, and hopefully they'll be tackled one at a time until this group buy is completed. Staying positive is the only way I remain sane through all of this.

There's a distinct lack of planning in all of this...This isn't an "old-school" vs "new-school" issue. It's an issue with how 7bit lacks even the semblance of organizational skill and the best you'll get as an update is a one-liner with the " " emoji.

I won't disagree with you there. And if venting helps you cope, then by all means vent. I don't think it will change the way 7bit runs this or any group buy, so I'm not sure it a terribly constructive thing to do, but I won't tell you to stop. Maybe you are serving as a useful filter for those not willing to put up with all of the insanity, and even though that will also serve to slow the process down, I can't exactly fault you for feeling the need to sound the claxxons.

[Wodan]

I've seen MUCH worse GB runners and from my experience, 7bits performance is well above the average GB runner. Just look at a bunch of the latest GMK GBs run over at GH. These caps come pre-sorted and the GB runners still took several weeks to several months from receiving the caps to shipping them. 7bit hat spent a few weeks now _SORTING_ bags of single caps into kits and is (hopefully) shipping them out soon. Some people just aren't cut out for the GB game ... go buy stuff in a shop and stop hating the players ...

[HorrorStorm]

I've seen MUCH worse GB runners and from my experience, 7bits performance is well above the average GB runner. Just look at a bunch of the latest GMK GBs run over at GH. These caps come pre-sorted and the GB runners still took several weeks to several months from receiving the caps to shipping them. 7bit hat spent a few weeks now _SORTING_ bags of single caps into kits and is (hopefully) shipping them out soon. Some people just aren't cut out for the GB game ... go buy stuff in a shop and stop hating the players ...

I didn't realize shipping 50% of the sets was considered above average. It's good to know that this is the bar I shall hold future GBs to, and everything is running at top efficiency here. /s

p.s I've been part of GH GB's.

[rominronin]

I wasn't a part of it (being before my time here), but I get the very strong impression that Round 5 was not much different than Round 6 in many ways.

But to be clear:

1. Certain Round 6 keycaps had to be remade for two reasons, one was SP's mistaken use of old legend plates that should have been scrapped a long time ago, and the other was due to the use of an unreliable graphics format, not the wrong format.

2. Requesting a slot in SP's production queue is not the same as placing an order with them; you can't order something without paying for it unless you are a vendor with a very special relationship with them. All that 7bit ever did was get quotes for Round 6 kits and request a production slot with the proviso that the funds would be ready to place an actual order. When the funds were not there, production kept getting pushed back. 7bit's remedy was to have half of Round 6 manufactured since he had enough funds for that. Now he finds himself trying to collect the necessary funds to complete more of the remaining kits in other colors.

3. Collectors are human; some will be reliable (for a while), and others not so much. As long as humans are part of this process, things like going afk for months at a time is an ever-present risk. There is very little actual automation in 7bit's group buy system. Most of it involves human intervention and participation. This reliance on others, rather than a secure system backed by trusted financial institutions, makes 7bit's group buy very "old school" in my view. As I understand it, it's how they were often done before the MassDrop Era.

Thanks zslane. I found this information very useful. This should either be in the wiki, pinned at the start of this thread or saved in an faq or something.

[7bit]

packed:
0890
0789
0734

packing:
0910

[Veggis]

packed:
0890
0789
0734

packing:
0910

Do #0463 next

[7bit]

packed:
0890
0789
0734
0910

packing:
0463

[eddible]

And 0930

[vinnycordeiro]

I would say 0975, but I'm afraid all my keycaps are on phase 2.

[Wodan]

[Radlife]

packed:
0890
0789
0734
0910

I got so excited for a second but realized that my order is 798

[maximm]

I forgot, but which colors were in phase 1?

[khongthenhuvay]

I forgot, but which colors were in phase 1?

Blue, Bluish Gray, Violet, Cream

[zslane]

Or, to be precise:

• WV/GD
• WV/BFP
• NN/BFP
• WV/RDE
• RDE/WV

It pays to learn the SP color codes...

[Veggis]

packed:
0890
0789
0734
0910

packing:
0463

[zslane]

I hope 7bit remembers to pack my Round 5 leftover kits with my Round 6 phase 1 kits...

[mecano]

Aren't these "already packed"? My Round 5 were packed quiet fast. One day you really should read that invoice

[Ail]

7 bit when you're done being the packing and shipping monkey hit me up about the e-mail I sent to the bot for payment collection. I sent it from the wrong address the first time, and then sent a second one from the correct address.