Good mechanical keyboard for programming?

[norman_hess]

Hey guys

I'm a web developer and I'm looking to buy a keyboard. I really don't like ergonomic keyboards, they're weird and I can't get used to them. I heard that mechanical keyboards are good for long time typing, but I don't have any experience in mechanical keyboards, and there are so many model to choose. Do you guys have any good mechanical keyboards to recommend?

Thanks a lot

PS: I'm reading this article https://hobgear.com/best-programming-keyboards/

[Scarpia]

I think it's going to be difficult to give you good advice unless you can give a few details about your needs:

1. Do you have an unlimited budget? Topre switch boards (e.g. Realforce) are pricey, but generally very well liked

2. What form factor are you looking for? Fullsize? Tenkeyless? Or something even more compact? The compact Happy Hacker (HHKB) boards (again, Topre switches) were built for programmers, but the form factor and layout is not for everyone

3. Modern vs. vintage? Some of us have a particular fondness for vintage boards, others may prefer something with adapter-free USB (or Bluetooth) and untouched keycaps

4a. Switch type: Cherry MX or one of the many clones? Vintage Alps or one of the many clones? Modern Alps clone switches from Matias? Classic IBM buckling spring switches? Topre capacitive switches? Modern chinese Hall Effect switches? Or...... there are too many options here and they offer dramatically different keyfeels, so there's really no way to advise you other than to try as many keyboards as you can and see what you like.

4b. And on the subject of switches, there is the question of clicky vs. tactile vs. linear switches; depending on your coworkers and office environment, clicky switches may simply be too loud to use for work, and if you are shopping for your first mech it can be difficult to know what you like. A switch tester can be helpful, but it won't tell you what it's like to live with a switch in a full keyboard for a 10 hour coding session. Again, try as many different boards as you can.

And finally, there are some great guides online to buying your first mechanical keyboard, which will go over your options (and everything I mentioned above) in great detail:

MakeUseOf: 7 Newbie Tips When Buying a Mechanical Keyboard

KeyChatter’s mechanical keyboard buyer’s guide

Interactive Mechanical Keyboard Guide

Reddit Mechanical Keyboard Buying Guide

[Wodan]

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=86153.0

He's just spamming keyboard forums with this question, don't waste you time. I appreciate new members to the community but I dislike people that are so passive/lazy, they don't even spend half an hour researching before starting to ask questions. I am sure there are tons of people (like Scarpia) that would love to help you with your keyboard questions but we're not selling keyboards here. Come back when you have answers to all of Scarpias questions.

[Scarpia]

You're right of course, Wodan.

Then again, it would be nice if DT had its own buyer's guide / introduction for newbies so we had somewhere to link to when this question comes up (and it does come up a lot).

The links I posted are fine, but a lot of the easy-to-digest information out there is very Cherry-focused, and some of it is entirely gaming focused. I just think if anyone can create a good guide like that, it's DT.

[fohat]

but a lot of the easy-to-digest information out there is very Cherry-focused, and some of it is entirely gaming focused.

That is probably the primary audience. "You have to start somewhere."

I think that it may be doing a disservice to recommend anything to a newbie that is not foolproof plug-and-play straight out of the box and that comes with a warranty.

If that person decides to become an "enthusiast" later, then there are plenty of resources for that, too.

[Scarpia]

@fohat: Sure, I wouldn't tell a Twitch-addicted schoolboy to go pick up a terminal Model F and a soldering station, that would be cruel. But the truth is, if you end up on DT looking for advice on a mechanical keyboard, chances are you're an engineer or an IT professional, and that you aren't too frightened by having to use an adapter if it means squeezing 10% more productivity out of your workday. I just think it's a bit sad to see buyer's guides where All Roads Lead To Razer.

[Wodan]

Some of that is just a click away:
wiki/Introduction_to_keyboards
wiki/(Mechanical)_keyboards:_getting_started

If you feel passionate about it Scarpia, the Wiki would be the DT way of writing such a guide. The above mentioned articles are outdated in some details but they are a good starting point. I would really appreciate some more "Introduction" and "Getting Started" content

What sets me off are people that are on the internet and ask questions that are just a google search away. When you can tell someone gives -1 shits about something and expects to get a personalized buying treatment by one of the scenes top nerds. This is not a shop.

[Menuhin]

My opinion is OP may not *need* a mechanical keyboard, but any higher end keyboard will do.
Function keys and arrow keys and extra macro keys are good for programmers.

Here's my take: Sun Type 6 USB keyboard with HHKB layout, nice caps with nice font, nice case with good switches.
< 30 USD shipped.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sun-Microsystem ... 0005.m1851

[Techno Trousers]

What sets me off are people that are on the internet and ask questions that are just a google search away. When you can tell someone gives -1 shits about something and expects to get a personalized buying treatment by one of the scenes top nerds. This is not a shop.

Well, on the bright side, OP didn't ask us to loan out any keyboards for testing. THAT would be truly lazy.

[Wodan]

If he knew what keyboard he wanted to try, I'd be packing it right now.

[zslane]

I'm a programmer and I found the Filco Majestouch-2 to be an ideal "gateway" keyboard.

[XMIT]

Hi norman_hess - there are many programmers on this forum. zslane is one, I'm one as well, and there are others.

If you are looking to try a "mechanical" keyboard I'd recommend something pretty traditional looking with the Cherry MX Brown switch. This is a medium-weight, tactile switch. It is louder than a laptop keyboard but not as loud as some others. Many folks are very happy with this switch.

You need to decide if you want something with backlighting, and if you want a full sized board or a "tenkeyless" board without a numeric keypad.

This is a popular choice: the CM Storm QuickFire Rapid. CM has been active on this forum in the past.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007VDKLLM/

Expect to pay around $100. At present, this board is $85 shipped within the US.

For something full sized and backlit, you might also consider the CM Quick Fire Xti.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F8W5PV8/

FWIW, the board zslane just recommended also offers these Cherry MX Brown switches.

To the others: everyone starts somewhere, and we don't always do a great job of keeping things simple. Hopefully this post is helpful to other newcomers.

[zslane]

For some folks, all it takes is obtaining a keyboard that's noticeably better than the one they had, and the quest is over. If that had been me, I would have stopped at the first Filco Majestouch-2 I bought.

But for many of us, obtaining that first keyboard starts us on a quest for our "End Game" board. And for others still, it leads to, um, collecting.

I'm not a collector, but I am searching for my end-game board. After a year immersed in this hobby, I've narrowed it down to three possible candidates, only one of which even exists at the moment:

1. Topre RealForce RGB with silencing rings
2. Varmilo VA108M with MX pinks (aka silent reds)
3. XMIT Hall Effect ANSI-108 (but only if it is as quiet as the two above)

Whichever one wins out, I'll need four of them: a main driver and a backup for both home and at work. All the boards I've accumulated along the way during this quest will be put up for sale because I am not a collector.

[chuckdee]

I think it really depends on the user, which is the reason that the response from Wodan and others was probably given. A keyboard is a keyboard- as long as it has the standard keys, it's going to work for it. Unless we know the particular use case, and what they've liked and not, it will be hard to recommend. I use a Pok3r with clears as a programmer, and it works well for me. I have a whitefox in transit- and that might change what I use. I also use RS Ver.b+, and I'm hoping to get a clueboard next year. Between layout, switches, materials- I don't think that someone else can tell you what's going to be good for you.

[Findecanor]

Here's my take: Sun Type 6 USB keyboard with HHKB layout, nice caps with nice font, nice case with good switches.

I have not tried the Sun Type 6, but I have worked on the Sun Type 7 and that one, I would say is one of the nicer-feeling rubber dome keyboards there are. The right Alt key was a bit away from standard - and I use that one a lot, but it was easy to get used to. I have a Sun Type 5 and that one does not feel half as nice, but is a looker.

I have also worked on Cherry MX Brown, Cherry MX Clear and on Topre variable. I found the Topre to be tiring and the Brown to not give enough tactile feedback.
The Clear is my favourite switch for typing and therefore what I get for all my newer keyboards. There is also a "boutique switch" clone variant of the Clear called Purple Zealio - If you can get a keyboard with it on Massdrop, get it! It is somewhat improved.
The WhiteFox keyboard has been available with Zealios, but only in kit form I'm afraid.

But note that those are all my opinions. There are as many opinions on keyboard feel and keyboard layout as there are people.

[zslane]

I think of MX clear as MX black with a tactile leaf installed. My fingers couldn't cope with the resistance of MX blacks, so I wouldn't expect to be able to cope with MX clears either. Yet a 45g Topre switch is not fatiguing on my fingers in the way MX blacks are, so I'm surprised you find Topre tiring but not MX clears (which have a much stiffer spring).

[Findecanor]

On Blacks and Reds, I tend to overshoot the actuation point just to be sure and that gets tiring. With Topre being a rubber dome with no direct link between tactile feedback and actuation, I almost always bottom out.

On Clears, the tactile feedback high up in the stroke is proper: it tells me to stop pressing, the force curve is also steeper than on Blacks, getting steeper right there after the dip after the actuation point. This means that the total key travel - and therefore the total force expended per key press - is smaller for me than on 45g Topre or MX Black. It did take me a week to get used to that way of typing though as it was so different from what I had been used to.

[zslane]

Interesting.

I don't think I could ever stop pressing to bottom-out, no matter what the switch is or what the tactile bump is telling me. It's just too deeply ingrained into my psyche.

[norman_hess]

I think it's going to be difficult to give you good advice unless you can give a few details about your needs:

1. Do you have an unlimited budget? Topre switch boards (e.g. Realforce) are pricey, but generally very well liked

2. What form factor are you looking for? Fullsize? Tenkeyless? Or something even more compact? The compact Happy Hacker (HHKB) boards (again, Topre switches) were built for programmers, but the form factor and layout is not for everyone

3. Modern vs. vintage? Some of us have a particular fondness for vintage boards, others may prefer something with adapter-free USB (or Bluetooth) and untouched keycaps

4a. Switch type: Cherry MX or one of the many clones? Vintage Alps or one of the many clones? Modern Alps clone switches from Matias? Classic IBM buckling spring switches? Topre capacitive switches? Modern chinese Hall Effect switches? Or...... there are too many options here and they offer dramatically different keyfeels, so there's really no way to advise you other than to try as many keyboards as you can and see what you like.

4b. And on the subject of switches, there is the question of clicky vs. tactile vs. linear switches; depending on your coworkers and office environment, clicky switches may simply be too loud to use for work, and if you are shopping for your first mech it can be difficult to know what you like. A switch tester can be helpful, but it won't tell you what it's like to live with a switch in a full keyboard for a 10 hour coding session. Again, try as many different boards as you can.

And finally, there are some great guides online to buying your first mechanical keyboard, which will go over your options (and everything I mentioned above) in great detail:

MakeUseOf: 7 Newbie Tips When Buying a Mechanical Keyboard

KeyChatter’s mechanical keyboard buyer’s guide

Interactive Mechanical Keyboard Guide

Reddit Mechanical Keyboard Buying Guide

Thank you scarpia.

1. I have $250 to spend. I'm, too, looking at Topre, but I don't know what are the difference between Topre switches and cherry switches. Are they worth buying? Then again, I don't see many keyboards that use Topre switches. If they're good, why don't they make more models with Topre switches?

2. I'm not really sure about the sizes. I'm not using the numeric keys a lot, then may be a tenkey-less version.

3. Modern, maybe? Is there any wireless mechanical keyboard? I did some searching and found none.

4. Wow, now I'm more confused about those switches. I'd like something silent, and I was thinking about Brown and Clear switches. Then you listed a lot of switches, and now I'm even more confused.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=86153.0

He's just spamming keyboard forums with this question, don't waste you time. I appreciate new members to the community but I dislike people that are so passive/lazy, they don't even spend half an hour researching before starting to ask questions. I am sure there are tons of people (like Scarpia) that would love to help you with your keyboard questions but we're not selling keyboards here. Come back when you have answers to all of Scarpias questions.

Thank you for your comment, I've been searching a lot on Internet, but I must say: this is not an easy task. That's the reason I making a lot of threads on different forums asking for help.

* Again, thank you guys for helping me, I'll make sure I read all your comments

[norman_hess]

1. Topre RealForce RGB with silencing rings
2. Varmilo VA108M with MX pinks (aka silent reds)
3. XMIT Hall Effect ANSI-108 (but only if it is as quiet as the two above).

Thank zslane for all your comments.

The Topre Realforce RGB is not sold yet, is that right? Same with the Varmilo VA108M. I can't find any store that sell the XMIT Hall Effect, but I really like this keyboard.

[Menuhin]

Driving to a nearby shopping mall to try out a few mechanical boards will quickly give you an idea what you prefer and what you dislike in key switches, e.g. can I use linear switches? This is how I quickly found out I really don't like MX browns and MX blues. However, you probably can't find higher-end boards in a mall such as Topre, or something with Zealios or modded 'Ergo-clear', or vintage boards such as IBM buckling springs, or older Alps.
Joining a mechanical keyboard meetup in your area to try these out can save you lots of money and time in terms of search.

As a programmer yourself, you can already tell some essential features of a keyboard or keyboard layout you prefer to have, e.g. is space saving important or are extra function and macro keys important? These can already help you narrow down to a handful of keyboard offers, and plus your budget in mind, you probably can ask already more specific questions soon.

One thing about keyboards I always want to emphasize, there are really bad mechanical switches (In my personal opinion MX browns, for example) and there are also really high quality rubber dome keyboards that give a 9/10+ key press experience. The tactile key feel of Topre switches is basically a rubber dome tactile experience, and there are many high quality rubber dome keyboards with switch sliders.

Think about the features you want, and find out your personal switch preferences by trying some of the boards out there.
You can eventually find your way.

[zslane]

1. Topre RealForce RGB with silencing rings
2. Varmilo VA108M with MX pinks (aka silent reds)
3. XMIT Hall Effect ANSI-108 (but only if it is as quiet as the two above).

Thank zslane for all your comments.

The Topre Realforce RGB is not sold yet, is that right? Same with the Varmilo VA108M. I can't find any store that sell the XMIT Hall Effect, but I really like this keyboard.

As of last month, you can buy the RealForce RGB board from mechanicalkeyboards.com (I have two of them already; that's how much I like them). You can buy the Varmilo VA108M through MassDrop when they get around to offering it again (it comes around about three or four times a year), or you can drop Cynthia the Varmilo rep on GeekHack a PM telling her what you want and they will make it for you. XMIT's Hall Effect boards went up on MassDrop last month. They were successful enough that there will undoubtedly be another round at some point, but it has not yet been determined when.

As for switches, there are basically three types: linear, tactile, and clicky. I am a linear switch fan for the most part, but I do like a good tactile switch too.

When it comes to tactile, I feel that Topre switches are the gold standard. You could give MX browns (or clears) a try, but they will pale in comparison to Topre, IMO.

When it comes to linear switches, you really only have two easy (as in easily available) choices: MX red or MX black, the difference being that blacks offer considerably more resistance to your fingers than reds. The MX pinks are very new and only two boards that I know of have them, both of which are excellent boards: the Filco Majestouch-2 and the WASD V2. I am waiting for Varmilo to start making MX pinks available on their boards. XMIT's Hall Effect switches could easily become the new gold standard for linears, but XMIT has yet to present the combination of board features I want/need, so I await a future round on MassDrop with my fingers crossed.

[gcardinal]

I have been web developing for past 10 years, now at a CTO position, but I still do quite a bit of coding. My general advice for CSS / HTML or any type-heavy work would be a Cherry MX Black / Red / Topre, for JavaScript or PHP I would recommend Cherry MX Brown, IBM Model M or ALPS.

For general fast typing I find tactile response a bit annoying, but for coding where every character counts and especially if you work in PHPStorm or any other IDE when you get some response from each keypress to get something with some sort of feedback - click, bump or something of that nature - is really nice addition and it helps.

At work I enjoy anything with tactile sine I mostly code PHP and at home I use Topre or MX Red with o-rings since its more of a casual type of tasks.

Hope it helps!

Edit: My recommendation is Topre Realforce 88UB or CM Quick Fire RAPID-i with browns.

[norman_hess]

Guys, thank for all your helps. I've decided to buy the Ducky Shine RGB 5 - Brown. I've been playing with it for last 2 days, and I'm loving it.

[Halvar]

Good choice! I'm a developer, too, and MX browns are my favorite MX switch for work. They are almost linear, with a very subtle but sufficient tactility, and the lttle force that you need makes them less loud than other mechanical switches once you get used to them.

[sems]

Why did you skipped HHKB? I'm planning to get one Topre (likely HHKB) and a Cherry (i guess Pok3r). I already have my Romer-G G410 for my gaming setup so it will be nice to compare each of them. Will update this thread about those keyboards & developer usage.

[vometia]

Hi norman_hess - there are many programmers on this forum. zslane is one, I'm one as well, and there are others.

And I'm yet another! The Model M is always my go-to keyboard, although as others have said some may not care for its sound. I don't mind because I find that it's rather pronounced clattering is drowned out by its awesomeness.

I'm currently using a Filco Majestouch 2 with blues which is kinda nice and petite but it's just not the same as typing on buckling springs, so I expect that before long my desk will once again play host to the acres of beige that is my M.

[Halvar]

I envy you if you don't work in an open plan office...

I used a Model M at work for a few weeks, and my collegues were quite patient, but then I didn't want to bother them any more. Now I'm using my Novatouch.

[niomosy]

Why did you skipped HHKB? I'm planning to get one Topre (likely HHKB) and a Cherry (i guess Pok3r). I already have my Romer-G G410 for my gaming setup so it will be nice to compare each of them. Will update this thread about those keyboards & developer usage.

The HHKB is a layout for certain people and not others. I've used that same layout on Sun keyboards but the HHKB takes what I already don't like about that layout and adds to it. I dislike it for several reasons:

Function keys on a layer. If we're talking ergonomics, it's more painful for me to hit Fn in addition to a number key and possibly another key (Ctrl+F4 for closing tabs for me is common and this keyboard places that into a 3-key combination). It's even worse if I've got a hand on the mouse already.

Poor placement of the \| key. I'm a UNIX admin and while a lot of my time is spend doing Puppet, Ruby, or bash scripting, a lot of it is at the command line. Moving the | symbol even further away is awful.

Poor placement of the Backspace/Delete key. I don't need it closer to the Enter key, I need the \| more accessible.

Poor placement of the `~ key. It gets shifted to the right side when the right side is already filled with non-alpha characters.

Non-standard layout, IIRC. This is more in terms of added keysets.

[sems]

That's enlightening for me, as I'm also a young RoR developer with also system admin duties. Thanks for sharing your thoughts based on experience. As much as I want to get a Topre board, Realforce models seemed bulky to me, so compact layout of HHKB was a winner but now I realized that I need to be more skeptical before getting one.