The Great Switch Debate

[DeChief]

[redacted]

I've been told to just go with Cherry switches.

Edit: The general topic is about which switches are "the best" in your personal opinion, and which would be best for a commercial product that I'm working on.

[Ratfink]

Or, you know, you could search around the web yourself instead of making us do your work for you.

[emdude]

@DeChief, as Ratfink suggests, you should probably research switch types yourself (and possibly purchase a switch tester) and make a decision based on your own personal preferences instead of just getting whatever people have the "highest praise" for.

[DeChief]

Or, you know, you could search around the web yourself instead of making us do your work for you.

Hey, are you implying that I'm lazy?! Well you wouldn't be far from the truth...

But really, the purpose of this thread is to find out directly from you guys what the general consensus is about which switch is best. I could search elsewhere, but all of you clearly know what you're talking about and have plenty of experience with this stuff.

[DeChief]

@DeChief, as Ratfink suggests, you should probably research switch types yourself (and possibly purchase a switch tester) and make a decision based on your own personal preferences instead of just getting whatever people have the "highest praise" for.

The thing is, this project will probably eventually be sold as a product, it isn't just for me. So because of that, I need to use switches that people will be happy with.

[Findecanor]

There is no such thing as a "best" switch, nor is there any general consensus about it. Opinions are very varied.
There have been several polls now and then here and on Geekhack and other forums.

If you are going to make a product, use whatever you like, what you think will sell the best or, you could give buyers choice.

[emdude]

But really, the purpose of this thread is to find out directly from you guys what the general consensus is about which switch is best.

This is the main issue, really; There really isn't a consensus on which switch is best. That's a large reason as to why the hobby is fun, some people want to try them all!

The thing is, this project will probably eventually be sold as a product, it isn't just for me. So because of that, I need to use switches that people will be happy with.

Based on this and your OP, your "alternative keyboard project" probably precludes everything but modern discrete switches, basically just Cherry MX or Matias Alps-mount switches. If you want to sell this as a product, then you should focus on Cherry MX and clones, since that is the dominant switch mount currently on the market. Specific switch types are irrelevant, if you have different versions of your product with different switches or if you have a DIY kit, as many other companies offer.

[Wodan]

Aw it's a shame the OP killed the OP.

Dudebro ... don't surf the hype ... make Cherry great again!

[DeChief]

Aw it's a shame the OP killed the OP.

Dudebro ... don't surf the hype ... make Cherry great again!

Well what point is there asking what I was originally asking when it was entirely shot down by every reply so far? Quite disappointing.

[Wodan]

I have no clue what you were originally asking

[kbdfr]

Aw it's a shame the OP killed the OP. […]

Well what point is there asking what I was originally asking when it was entirely shot down by every reply so far? Quite disappointing.

Because a discussion in itself is always enriching. It's deleting the original question that makes the rest pointless.

You are disappointed not because others answered, but because the answers did not follow the line you had expected.
That alone does not make your question worthless.

[Wodan]

You have attracted the attention of kbdfr. This is a real debate now.

[pixelheresy]

There isn't *really* a consensus, but there are a quite few considerations and a lot in the room of personal preferences... That being said, Cherry MX is a good solid answer for someone who doesn't want to invest tons of time/money/effort.

1) Cherry MX have a lot of varieties and types. Even from there, you can customize a bit and get slightly different feels.
2) They are ubiquitous.
3) They are [relatively] easy to desolder and replace
4) Nearly all new production "boutique" keycap sets are available in Cherry MX

That being said, I still kind of kick myself for getting rid of some nice Alps-based vintage Mac keyboards (basically since I got rid of a bunch of vintage Macs moving off to grad school and a few more when moving to Europe), basically because I didn't ever use them. Now I wish I saved and rewired/converted them to USB. Even though I am generally a pretty solid Cherry MX blues w/medium dampener rings [tactile, clicky, but not clacky], the old Apple Extended Keyboard had a really nice feel.

This is the problem with classic Alps or IBM buckling spring keyboards... For the most part, replacement parts are "dead man's boots", whereas most Cherry can be desoldered and replacement with new stock.

[seebart]

That's right, Cherry MX is a practical & reliable switch with endless modding options. There is a reason why all the MX-clones exist.

There is no such thing as a "best" switch, nor is there any general consensus about it. Opinions are very varied.

1+ to this.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Supposing you wanted to outfit an office with new equipment that didn't suck: what keyboards would you choose? You want something that the majority of people will find acceptable. Not too heavy, not too light, not too tactile, not too loud.

I suppose the only way to get a clear idea is to have everyone rate all of the modern switch types on a scale of 1–5 and look for which types score, for the most part, 3 or more. Polls of "which is your favourite" don't help here, as they never tell you what you'd be willing to put up with if you couldn't choose a favourite.

[pixelheresy]

[quote="Daniel Beardsmore" post_id=357728]Supposing you wanted to outfit an office with new equipment that didn't suck: what keyboards would you choose? You want something that the majority of people will find acceptable. Not too heavy, not too light, not too tactile, not too loud./quote]

The least offensive option would be Cherry MX blacks. They are linear rather than tactile, but generally regarded as not too heavy for general use. Not my preference (but will use without too much complaint), but fits to least common denominator (and a big step up from rubber dome).

Blues tend to be a favorite, but the noise sometimes drives people insane.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

I've read a number of complaints about MX Black being too heavy, so, I'm uncertain, since it's surely no different to all the other linear switches out there (like those that we used in the 80s) — that's one switch that I do need to try out one day just to know for certain.

[Wodan]

I can send you a mid 2000s G80 with MX Blacks if you're serious.

While I find heavy linear switches quite annoying and miss actuations when typing really quickly, I gave a WeyTec MK06 a go for a few days last week and realized stock MX Clears can be quite a pleasure to type on.

Did type on an MX Black board for a few weeks and just couldn't get used to it. But MX Clears - though nominally heavier than MX Blacks - gave me great actuations after just a few hours of getting used to it. The only thing that gave me issues was the MX Tactile Grey space bar.

What I really learned to understand was the concept behind MX Clears ... you just don't bottom out. And that's why I think MX Clears are a great switch to consider even though it is on the exotic side of the spectrum. You can type on them very well and comfortably without bottoming out - removing the main source for typing noise.

[pixelheresy]

Honestly, I use a Das 3 with blues in an open office. With then dampeners on the caps, I never received one complaint. Sure, most other devs wear headphones, etc. but even when they don't, since the keys do not bottom out, the blue's tactile click is not that terrible. And there is something to be said about the pop of a blue or the click and fall of a buckling spring. I find the accuracy is best with a tactile, albeit, I never really had much problem with Blacks and accuracy. I guess because I am a heavy-handed typist.

[Chyros]

Cherry MX is arguably one of the worst MX-type switches out there right now. And MX-type switches are arguably one of the more mediocre switch types out there. Personally I feel like they're inherently crap at tactility and clickiness, and MX linears made by Cherry are both poorly weighted and scratchy.

[fohat]

Like almost any "enthusiast" forum, the conclusion of many members will be "They don't make 'em like they used to" and their quest will be searching out and restoring, and possibly improving, old gear.

A "best of" conversation limited to currently widely available components (excluding, obviously, the numerous "revival" projects going on in this forum, right now) will be a Topre vs Cherry discussion, which is pretty lame and boring.

[Wodan]

... And MX-type switches are arguably one of the more mediocre switch types out there.

It's a miracle pretty much ALL custom keyboard projects from all over the world base their designs on MX-Type switches. With the variety of different brands, switch types and endless modding capabilities ... don't you think you should reconsider your denial of the MX world we are living in and consider that basically EVERY keyboard maker is deciding for a switch type you can't stop hating on?

You still owe us an alternative to MX switches ...

What alternative is everyone missing that is superior to MX based switches?

[seebart]

Good thing it's all preference, just imagine someone being forced to type on a switch they hate...

4646159.jpg (51.18 KiB) Viewed 5564 times

[Hypersphere]

My vote is for switches that work only with linux!

All seriousness aside, there is no denying that the current world of mechanical keyboards is dominated by Cherry mx and clones. Anyone introducing a new keyboard could join the crowd, seemingly playing it safe by using Cherry mx (and/or clone) switches. However, if you wanted to buck the trend, you could do something different in order to distinguish your product from the rest. Examples of adventurous keyboard makers include Matias with his redesigned clones of simplfied Alps switches and our own XMIT with his Hall Effect keyboards.

[Sigmoid]

Well my personal opinion of Cherry MX can be summed up with the word "mediocre". They are good I guess. Nowhere near what I expected after all the insane hype over the things. They do the job. Mostly. Compared to IBM buckling springs, they are kinda disappointing.

So the question is what one is aiming for from a product design perspective. If you want to do PCB mount, Cherry MX is probably the only solution. It's also the most flexible in terms of keycap compatibility, so if you want people to be able to "mod" your keyboard, MX is the way to go.

However, while I haven't actually used Matias switches, people keep calling them superior to Cherry MX... And if one is doing a product (which means volume), then Signature Plastics has the molds for Alps mount keycaps. It's feasible even in smaller-scale, group buy scenarios. (Just in my opinion, if you go with Signature Plastics, just stick to ABS - it's where their expertise is, it's what they do best.)

I don't think all keyboards need to aim for full keycap customizability. Shipping with a good color scheme and profile that people like, and good Matias switches (once again, no first person experience there), you can probably produce a really cool and loved keyboard.

You still owe us an alternative to MX switches ...

What alternative is everyone missing that is superior to MX based switches?

Matias. Matias is the alternative everyone is missing. Also Topre.

[seebart]

All seriousness aside, there is no denying that the current world of mechanical keyboards is dominated by Cherry mx and clones.

There is a very simple reason for that, and it's not the superiority of MX as a mechanical keyswitch but I won't start a switch flame war here.

Cherry MX is probably the only solution. It's also the most flexible in terms of keycap compatibility, so if you want people to be able to "mod" your keyboard, MX is the way to go.

That's one of the main reasons.

[Wodan]

The superiority of the MX switch design doesn't mean they offer the most refines typing experience in all of their different variants.

But I have yet to see a modular buckling spring switch ... or a PCB-mountable Alps switch ...

And all the love Alps switches get ... every time I pull out an Alps board the first question is "Do the switches STILL feel good?" because they age terribly. And before Matias applied some black magic to the simplified Alps design, they also only had 40% of the Cherry MX rating.

I am really a friend of a fact based discussion where everyone can share his or hers opinion along with experiences or facts that back it.

Let me just get started here:

MX based switches:

- Offer the greatest variety of mounting options (Plate, PCB, crazy plate-only like in the Maltron)
- Offer the most versatile and consistent stabilizing mechanisms for keycaps 2u and up
- Come in ALL varieties (clicky, linear, tactile, lock, scratchy)
- Have undergone ZERO revisions for almost 30 years ( stuff like complicated => simplified ...)
- Have endless modding potential
- Come with a REAL 50mil. rating WHEN GOLD PLATED
- Are the most readily available switches
- Are modular and compact for VERY universal layout support
- Offer backlight support in pretty much ALL variants
- Have a VERY reliable keycap mount

If you don't like the way MX switches feel, blame yourself ... and mod them for your preference

[fohat]

If you don't like the way MX switches feel, blame yourself .... and mod them for your preference

Hard to argue with this. Jailhoused blue or green are actually pretty decent, also ergo clears.

[seebart]

Of course there is a lot more out there than MX or Alps SKCM depending on where one is. No, I won't "blame myself" for any personal preference, that's what it's all about really. I really did not know you were such a MX friend Wodan. Good thing you live in the right place for that.

[Wodan]

Do you really think?