Alps Appreciation

[seebart]

But White wasn't. And possible made of Polyoximethilen, rather than something that's not that slippery. So, they wouldn't need lube. But they get stuck without it.

Possibly. Of course I don't have proof if blue Alps were lubed or not.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

They were. Too mutch people reported lubricants on them.

[seebart]

They were. Too mutch people reported lubricants on them.

I know, we never found out exactly what lube but PTFE should do the job anyway.

[Hypersphere]

They were. Too mutch people reported lubricants on them.

I know, we never found out exactly what lube but PTFE should do the job anyway.

I am convinced that SKCM blue Alps and at least some SKCM orange Alps were factory lubed. I suspect that a dry lube such as molybdenum disulfide was used, but I have not tested this. XMIT has mentioned plans to do some testing.

[cumwagondeluxe]

They were. Too mutch people reported lubricants on them.

I know, we never found out exactly what lube but PTFE should do the job anyway.

I am convinced that SKCM blue Alps and at least some SKCM orange Alps were factory lubed. I suspect that a dry lube such as molybdenum disulfide was used, but I have not tested this. XMIT has mentioned plans to do some testing.

Don't we have a couple chemists on here? I now Chyros does chemistry stuff, and I think I remember one of the other more well known dudes knowing chemistry pretty well. Is it just prohibitively expensive to scrape some lube off a factory lubed slider and toss it in some spectrometer, or is there really no way to identify these sorts of things other than testing reactions with other chemicals and using that to narrow down the possibilities over time?

Also, it seems like most people here feel like lubing alps (especially the older ones) ruins them - I'm really curious as to how some ~30 year old bits of dry lube could be so much better than anything similar we've got today. Would it really be so bad to toss some semi-scratchy SCKL green stems + tops I've got in a sonicator and then apply some e.g. dupont dry lube instead?

[Mattr567]

Also, it seems like most people here feel like lubing alps (especially the older ones) ruins them - I'm really curious as to how some ~30 year old bits of dry lube could be so much better than anything similar we've got today. Would it really be so bad to toss some semi-scratchy SCKL green stems + tops I've got in a sonicator and then apply some e.g. dupont dry lube instead?

Apparently it was some kind of industrial grade JIS lube.

No, only do the tops if they came with lube from the factory. Relubing is never as good as original. When I had some scratchy SKCL Green's from Taobao I only ultrasonic'd the tops, the sliders were perfectly fine. This will 90% of the time fix any issues. Only in rare cases like me where there was physical damage to the slider wells of the tops is where ultrasonic failed. I did lube those switches btw (with non sonic'd sliders, really lubed the tops, but only b/c of physical plastic damage) and it improved it for sure, but I would leave lubing as a last resort.

And lubing 100+ switches takes FOREVER and is a huge pain. Trust me after 225 switches I was pretty sick of it.

Also I used the exact Dupont lube your describing.

[Mattr567]

I also ultrasonic'd these SKCM Blue's, including the slider since it was bad, and they came out better. They didn't have any physical damage, just filth.

Relubing improved the switches but if the slider's were ok like the Greens I would of never done them. In the end they turned out much better than the Greens in terms of feel but binded a bit on off center key presses.

The other annoying part about them was that a bunch of the switchplates were bad so I had to scrounge replacements.

[//gainsborough]

I also ultrasonic'd these SKCM Blue's, including the slider since it was bad, and they came out better. They didn't have any physical damage, just filth.

Relubing improved the switches but if the slider's were ok like the Greens I would of never done them. In the end they turned out much better than the Greens in terms of feel but binded a bit on off center key presses.

The other annoying part about them was that a bunch of the switchplates were bad so I had to scrounge replacements.

[Mattr567]

Yea you know it's bad when dust is sticking to the slider like that, almost powder Probably the worst documented case of dirty Alps out there.

Another angle:


They did turn out well in the end. Too bad about the off center binding though. Ended up selling all my Taobao switches.

[//gainsborough]

That plate looks like a switch graveyard. Even that switch in the front that is somewhat out of focus is broken in an almost haunting way..

It's incredible what an ultrasonic cleaner can do!

[Menuhin]

Follow the discussion in Great find threads Two of the members here got the first two. I don't know for the second two. They are all SKCL Brown.

Want to try some SKCL browns

[Hypersphere]

I think I might have finally learned my lesson, and I am going to try following Chyros' advice about holding out for Alps switches in excellent condition.

Recently, I returned two keyboards with SKCM blue Alps because of numerous unresponsive or chattering keys. I should have expected trouble, given the appearance of the boards. They showed signs of extensive wear and/or neglect. Sometimes dirty Alps switches can be restored by proper cleaning -- occasionally accompanied by careful lubing -- but this is not guaranteed, and you may end up having to replace some switches.

In contrast, I finally managed to acquire two Alps-switch keyboards that have no issues (except for not being SKCM blue).

One is a NIB Dell AT101W. Granted, the "Bigfoot" Dell has black Alps, arguably the worst Alps switch ever made, but the board is brand new and it works perfectly (within the parameters of black Alps switches). Moreover, it can be transformed into a Chyros-inspired "Clickfoot", either by clipping the tactile leaves or by swapping them out for click leaves from a clicky Alps switch. This is also the least-expensive Alps board I have ever bought -- it cost me $25.

The other is a Northgate Omnikey 101 in like-new condition. I am typing on it now. The case and caps are not yellowed, the plate is clean and devoid of corrosion spots, and all the keys work with no binding, no intermittent unresponsiveness, and no chattering. At first, I thought I had a bad switch under the PrintScreen key -- I had forgotten that the Northgate requires two keypresses to activate PrintScreen (I relearned this by consulting the manual that came with the keyboard). It also came with extra Ctrl and CapsLock keycaps for swapping these two keys as well as a thin plastic dust cover.

The dust cover that came with the Northgate caused some momentary panic when I was unpacking the keyboard, because the color of the transparent plastic is yellow-orange. At first I thought that the keyboard had yellowed more than any Northgate I had ever seen and that the seller had photoshopped the eBay images. Much to my relief, when the cover came off, the keyboard was the whitest Northgate I have seen to date.

It is great to experience Alps when they are in excellent to pristine condition!

[Chyros]

I think I might have finally learned my lesson, and I am going to try following Chyros' advice about holding out for Alps switches in excellent condition.

Recently, I returned two keyboards with SKCM blue Alps because of numerous unresponsive or chattering keys. I should have expected trouble, given the appearance of the boards. They showed signs of extensive wear and/or neglect. Sometimes dirty Alps switches can be restored by proper cleaning -- occasionally accompanied by careful lubing -- but this is not guaranteed, and you may end up having to replace some switches.

In contrast, I finally managed to acquire two Alps-switch keyboards that have no issues (except for not being SKCM blue).

One is a NIB Dell AT101W. Granted, the "Bigfoot" Dell has black Alps, arguably the worst Alps switch ever made, but the board is brand new and it works perfectly (within the parameters of black Alps switches). Moreover, it can be transformed into a Chyros-inspired "Clickfoot", either by clipping the tactile leaves or by swapping them out for click leaves from a clicky Alps switch. This is also the least-expensive Alps board I have ever bought -- it cost me $25.

The other is a Northgate Omnikey 101 in like-new condition. I am typing on it now. The case and caps are not yellowed, the plate is clean and devoid of corrosion spots, and all the keys work with no binding, no intermittent unresponsiveness, and no chattering. At first, I thought I had a bad switch under the PrintScreen key -- I had forgotten that the Northgate requires two keypresses to activate PrintScreen (I relearned this by consulting the manual that came with the keyboard). It also came with extra Ctrl and CapsLock keycaps for swapping these two keys as well as a thin plastic dust cover.

The dust cover that came with the Northgate caused some momentary panic when I was unpacking the keyboard, because the color of the transparent plastic is yellow-orange. At first I thought that the keyboard had yellowed more than any Northgate I had ever seen and that the seller had photoshopped the eBay images. Much to my relief, when the cover came off, the keyboard was the whitest Northgate I have seen to date.

It is great to experience Alps when they are in excellent to pristine condition!

Another convert . Everyone keeps underestimating how big the difference in performance is when it's NOS. The Acer and Apple IIc did very well at the UK keyboard meetups for that reason, too .

[Mattr567]

I also learned my lesson too with the Taobao switches, that was a mess At least I ended up selling them for an ok profit but the man hours spent was not worth.

All of my boards I have now came in pretty clean and all feel fine. The best would be the NeXT, it might as well have been NIB. Never used for sure, just super light thin layer of dust that was removed in seconds with a air can. Switches are perfect.

The Packard came in pretty clean but did had some grime to remove, but still the plate was spotless and rust free and the switches were fine. Used a bit, but not overused or abused.

[Menuhin]

I think I might have finally learned my lesson, and I am going to try following Chyros' advice about holding out for Alps switches in excellent condition.

Recently, I returned two keyboards with SKCM blue Alps because of numerous unresponsive or chattering keys. I should have expected trouble, given the appearance of the boards. They showed signs of extensive wear and/or neglect. Sometimes dirty Alps switches can be restored by proper cleaning -- occasionally accompanied by careful lubing -- but this is not guaranteed, and you may end up having to replace some switches.

In contrast, I finally managed to acquire two Alps-switch keyboards that have no issues (except for not being SKCM blue).

One is a NIB Dell AT101W. Granted, the "Bigfoot" Dell has black Alps, arguably the worst Alps switch ever made, but the board is brand new and it works perfectly (within the parameters of black Alps switches). Moreover, it can be transformed into a Chyros-inspired "Clickfoot", either by clipping the tactile leaves or by swapping them out for click leaves from a clicky Alps switch. This is also the least-expensive Alps board I have ever bought -- it cost me $25.

The other is a Northgate Omnikey 101 in like-new condition. I am typing on it now. The case and caps are not yellowed, the plate is clean and devoid of corrosion spots, and all the keys work with no binding, no intermittent unresponsiveness, and no chattering. At first, I thought I had a bad switch under the PrintScreen key -- I had forgotten that the Northgate requires two keypresses to activate PrintScreen (I relearned this by consulting the manual that came with the keyboard). It also came with extra Ctrl and CapsLock keycaps for swapping these two keys as well as a thin plastic dust cover.

The dust cover that came with the Northgate caused some momentary panic when I was unpacking the keyboard, because the color of the transparent plastic is yellow-orange. At first I thought that the keyboard had yellowed more than any Northgate I had ever seen and that the seller had photoshopped the eBay images. Much to my relief, when the cover came off, the keyboard was the whitest Northgate I have seen to date.

It is great to experience Alps when they are in excellent to pristine condition!

Another convert . Everyone keeps underestimating how big the difference in performance is when it's NOS. The Acer and Apple IIc did very well at the UK keyboard meetups for that reason, too .

NOS for sure maximizes one's chance to get Alps switches in good condition.
But is this a statement that encourage harvesters to harvest from NOS boards?

Not many people are flexible with adjusting to suit other keyboard layouts, and for those who can, they use external or internal convertors - this preserve the keyboards.
Majority just go for the caps or the switches, whenever the layout doesn't fit their habit, or whenever (99.9%) some tiny things are not their custom keyboard ideals.

Well, one (those who never bother to convert a keyboard) can say the existence of those terminal (e.g. Tandem) keyboards are meaningless and irrelevant today, and harvesting from them is arguably even better than normal recycling. But please make sure to spend some effort to understand a piece of history (perhaps the last piece of history from this computing / typing equipment) before harvesting and scrapping it.

[Hypersphere]

Here is a slightly updated table of Alps switch weights:

Code: Select all

Switch Type                         Source
-----------------------------------------------------------------
                   A (Actuation)   B (Actuation)   C (Bottom-out)
                  -----------------------------------------------
Amber SKCL                                         87.5 - 90
Amber SKCL Striped  55                             55
Black SKCM          69             65   
Blue  SKCL                                         55
Blue SKCM           70             65 - 72         70
Brown SKCL                                         70
Brown SKCM                         75   
Cream SKCL          70                             70
Cream SKCM          70      
Cream SKCM Damped   69      
Green SKCL          50             50              50
Green SKCL Spacebar                                80
Green SKCL LED                                     67.5
Green SKCM          69      
Grey SKCL                                          80
Orange SKCM                        60   
Pink/Salmon SKCM                   65 - 70   
White SKCM          69             65              65
White damped SKCM                  60              60
Yellow SKCL         59                             60

======================================================

Sources: 

A = DT Wiki on SKCL/SKCM Alps series wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series

B = Reddit Keyboard Stiffness Database https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/ripometer

C = This thread, E3E results.

=======================================================

If you would like to copy this to a document, copy it to a text editor rather than a word processor.

[Mattr567]

Well, one (those who never bother to convert a keyboard) can say the existence of those terminal (e.g. Tandem) keyboards are meaningless and irrelevant today, and harvesting from them is arguably even better than normal recycling. But please make sure to spend some effort to understand a piece of history (perhaps the last piece of history from this computing / typing equipment) before harvesting and scrapping it.

Well said.

The Tandem's do have a pretty horrid layout, so I do understand where people are coming from but I try to save the boards where I can. I converted my Next for example, and it works great. The layout is definitely unusable too. What I tend to do is swap vintage boards with different switches, like my SKCM Brown SGI Granite for example.

[//gainsborough]

Here is a slightly updated table of Alps switch weights:

Code: Select all

Switch Type                         Source
-----------------------------------------------------------------
                   A (Actuation)   B (Actuation)   C (Bottom-out)
                  -----------------------------------------------
Amber SKCL                                         87.5 - 90
Amber SKCL Striped  55                             55
Black SKCM          69             65   
Blue  SKCL                                         55
Blue SKCM           70             65 - 72         70
Brown SKCL                                         70
Brown SKCM                         75   
Cream SKCL          70                             70
Cream SKCM          70      
Cream SKCM Damped   69      
Green SKCL          50             50              50
Green SKCL Spacebar                                80
Green SKCL LED                                     67.5
Green SKCM          69      
Grey SKCL                                          80
Orange SKCM                        60   
Pink/Salmon SKCM                   65 - 70   
White SKCM          69             65              65
White damped SKCM                  60              60
Yellow SKCL         59                             60

======================================================

Sources: 

A = DT Wiki on SKCL/SKCM Alps series wiki/Alps_SKCL/SKCM_series

B = Reddit Keyboard Stiffness Database https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/ripometer

C = This thread, E3E results.

=======================================================

If you would like to copy this to a document, copy it to a text editor rather than a word processor.

This is extremely useful! Thanks!

edit: is the weight for SKCM brown correct? A lot of users in the G/I F thread are saying it's really light

[cumwagondeluxe]

--snip--
edit: is the weight for SKCM brown correct? A lot of users in the G/I F thread are saying it's really light

My guess is that while the spring on it's own is light (iirc 40g? which would be relevant if you've removed the tactile leaf in an attempt to make SKCL Browns), the bump from the tactile leaf is large enough that in order to get past it you have to put in quite a bit of extra force.

[emdude]

I can corroborate that; the tactile leaf gives quite a bit of resistance even when the spring is not present.

[//gainsborough]

--snip--
edit: is the weight for SKCM brown correct? A lot of users in the G/I F thread are saying it's really light

My guess is that while the spring on it's own is light (iirc 40g? which would be relevant if you've removed the tactile leaf in an attempt to make SKCL Browns), the bump from the tactile leaf is large enough that in order to get past it you have to put in quite a bit of extra force.

Ahhh that makes sense. Thanks!

[Mattr567]

So I got a great idea.

I put a SKCL Amber spring into a SKCM Brown, and the result is amazing. It's super heavy! You know how SKCM Brown kinda collapses after the tactile bump? Well imagine if it kept going! Lol, its a crazy switch Unusable for sure, at least for me. I'm sure someone could replicate this with SPRiT springs too.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Here is a slightly updated table of Alps switch weights …

Gotta love Reddit. What a totally disorganised mess. "Cherry ML - Mechanical leaf over membrane" — huh?

According to Firefox, "You must enable DRM to play some audio or video on this page." — no thank you very much, Reddit.

[wiki]Alps SKCL Grey[/wiki] is 0.882 N incidentally. I'm still unconvinced that there is only one type of each space bar switch (cream in generation 1, amber in generation 1 Korea, and grey in generation 2).

We have 88 cN from Alps for grey (official, 1994), but 80 measured, plus 80 for space bar green (!?) and then 70 for cream. So did generation 2 bring about a heavier space bar switch? But for Korea we have the normal switch (brown) at 70 and space at 87.5–90 which is the same as grey. But then we have green at 50 vs yellow at 60, so it seems like the whole generation got stiffer: 50 normal/70 space, to 60 normal/88 space (Korea already using the heavier range).

With tactile switches there are suggested pairings (orange/salmon, blue/amber, cream/black) and in SKCC there are two linear grades (green is lighter than cream). But even then, the table has orange at 60 but salmon at 65–70, and white Alps is definitely stiffer than blue.

The linear switches still remain poorly understood, but in general things aren't clear enough yet. It does look almost as if the newer switches were intentionally heavier, although blue and white Alps are rated identically, and cream and black tactile seem to be rated the same too. We need more data on salmon as it would be odd to have it rated the same as black.

[alh84001]

So I got a great idea.

I put a SKCL Amber spring into a SKCM Brown, and the result is amazing. It's super heavy! You know how SKCM Brown kinda collapses after the tactile bump? Well imagine if it kept going! Lol, its a crazy switch Unusable for sure, at least for me. I'm sure someone could replicate this with SPRiT springs too.

Tour please!

[seebart]

So I got a great idea.

I put a SKCL Amber spring into a SKCM Brown, and the result is amazing. It's super heavy! You know how SKCM Brown kinda collapses after the tactile bump? Well imagine if it kept going! Lol, its a crazy switch Unusable for sure, at least for me. I'm sure someone could replicate this with SPRiT springs too.

Tour please!

Agreed, before I have to get silly illy...

200.gif (604.56 KiB) Viewed 4740 times

[Chyros]

I think I might have finally learned my lesson, and I am going to try following Chyros' advice about holding out for Alps switches in excellent condition.

Recently, I returned two keyboards with SKCM blue Alps because of numerous unresponsive or chattering keys. I should have expected trouble, given the appearance of the boards. They showed signs of extensive wear and/or neglect. Sometimes dirty Alps switches can be restored by proper cleaning -- occasionally accompanied by careful lubing -- but this is not guaranteed, and you may end up having to replace some switches.

In contrast, I finally managed to acquire two Alps-switch keyboards that have no issues (except for not being SKCM blue).

One is a NIB Dell AT101W. Granted, the "Bigfoot" Dell has black Alps, arguably the worst Alps switch ever made, but the board is brand new and it works perfectly (within the parameters of black Alps switches). Moreover, it can be transformed into a Chyros-inspired "Clickfoot", either by clipping the tactile leaves or by swapping them out for click leaves from a clicky Alps switch. This is also the least-expensive Alps board I have ever bought -- it cost me $25.

The other is a Northgate Omnikey 101 in like-new condition. I am typing on it now. The case and caps are not yellowed, the plate is clean and devoid of corrosion spots, and all the keys work with no binding, no intermittent unresponsiveness, and no chattering. At first, I thought I had a bad switch under the PrintScreen key -- I had forgotten that the Northgate requires two keypresses to activate PrintScreen (I relearned this by consulting the manual that came with the keyboard). It also came with extra Ctrl and CapsLock keycaps for swapping these two keys as well as a thin plastic dust cover.

The dust cover that came with the Northgate caused some momentary panic when I was unpacking the keyboard, because the color of the transparent plastic is yellow-orange. At first I thought that the keyboard had yellowed more than any Northgate I had ever seen and that the seller had photoshopped the eBay images. Much to my relief, when the cover came off, the keyboard was the whitest Northgate I have seen to date.

It is great to experience Alps when they are in excellent to pristine condition!

Another convert . Everyone keeps underestimating how big the difference in performance is when it's NOS. The Acer and Apple IIc did very well at the UK keyboard meetups for that reason, too .

NOS for sure maximizes one's chance to get Alps switches in good condition.
But is this a statement that encourage harvesters to harvest from NOS boards?

Not many people are flexible with adjusting to suit other keyboard layouts, and for those who can, they use external or internal convertors - this preserve the keyboards.
Majority just go for the caps or the switches, whenever the layout doesn't fit their habit, or whenever (99.9%) some tiny things are not their custom keyboard ideals.

Well, one (those who never bother to convert a keyboard) can say the existence of those terminal (e.g. Tandem) keyboards are meaningless and irrelevant today, and harvesting from them is arguably even better than normal recycling. But please make sure to spend some effort to understand a piece of history (perhaps the last piece of history from this computing / typing equipment) before harvesting and scrapping it.

To me, scrapping a beautiful NOS Alps keyboards to put its switches in some modern space-saving thing is supreme heresy. Of course, I can't stop them from doing it, but I've saved one or two boards from this terrible, unjust, undeserved fate.

If there's one thing we must've learned by now, it's that the old masters knew best when it comes to keyboards.

[Mattr567]

Tour please!

Agreed, before I have to get silly illy...

Yea, about that

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Oh.. My... God...
Aruz, KPT, and B3G-S too...

[subcat]

You can get 10/18 of the genuine ALPS there from an Orihalcon pack on eBay - it also includes B3G-S and KPT.
Edit: Op, looks like he's run out... I hadn't checked since I bought mine. My bad.

[Scarpia]

Yea, about that

So many delicious colours..... I WANT TO LICK IT!!!!!!!