Plum Nano75 Electrastatic Capacitive Bluetooth RGB Keyboard

[zslane]

The sound of my Noppoo EC108 Pro is shuff shuff shuff, which isn't bad, to be honest. No, it is the complete lack of a tactile bump that makes the keyboard a waste of my money. When I bought it, I wasn't looking for a 35cN linear board; I was looking for a 40-45cN tactile board, and I feel duped.

So the aspect of the Plum that is of utmost concern to me is the tactility. I'd really like to hear from someone who uses a Topre 45cN board as their daily driver, and who also has a Plum 45cN board, so they can compare the tactility of the two.

[Menuhin]

I believe the shuff sound is similar to the 'whistling' sound of HHKB Type-S.

Spoiler:

I feel your frustration about the 35cN linear. I was still happy about the cushioning of bottoming out (at the time I did not have my HHKB Pro 2) before swapping in the 55g Korean dome sheet.

[Laser]

Maybe what all that these Topre-clone keyboards need (RoyalKludge, Plum etc.) is *only* an original Topre dome/rubber sheet to replace their own - you "suddenly" get a completely programmable, silenced and cheaper Topre keyboard in your desired format (shape, LEDs or POM keycaps etc.).

[zslane]

No doubt.

But where do you get one of those (without harvesting it from an existing keyboard)?

[Menuhin]

Or the manufacturer has to listen to the users.
But perhaps they need an expert to tell them what material / formula in a reasonable cost can give them the desirable result like those rubber domes of Topre boards.

[Laser]

There could be a market for old/broken (i.e. cheap) Topre keyboards ("for parts") to salvage the rubber domes .. maybe somebody around Tokyo that could find such things at cheap prices - if he knows there's a need for them.

Or, experiment with different boards that sport rubber domes - would it work for example, transplanting the domes from a BTC to a Plum?

[Laser]

What would happen if somebody who owns a Topre contacts Realforce (or PFU, depending on what keyboard (s)he owns) and asks for some genuine replacement rubber dome sheets?

[vivalarevolución]

Maybe what all that these Topre-clone keyboards need (RoyalKludge, Plum etc.) is *only* an original Topre dome/rubber sheet to replace their own - you "suddenly" get a completely programmable, silenced and cheaper Topre keyboard in your desired format (shape, LEDs or POM keycaps etc.).

Except the case is cheaper, switch housing is scratchy, the plate not as quality and obnoxiously shiny (at least in the Plum I owned), and generally lower build quality overall. It would take more than a new dome sheet to improve the overall quality of the Topre-clone keyboards.

[zslane]

That matches my assessment of my Noppoo EC108Pro as well.

Having said that, I would be willing to try a Plum Nano 75 if I could be certain that the tactility would be the same as, say, a NovaTouch, even if the rest of the board's build quality is sub-par. It wouldn't be my main driver anyway; just a keyboard for use with my iPad.

[Menuhin]

... even if the rest of the board's build quality is sub-par. ... just a keyboard for use with my iPad.

They (PLUM/Noppoo) claim that they're using the 'best' parts already.
I'm not sure about the scratchy stem - the scratchy noise is similar to those in HHKB Type-S - but it doesn't mean that Type-S cannot use some lube. And I am not sure the case is necessarily 'cheaper' either - the case of HHKB Pro 2 after so many years still doesn't sport some non-slip pads at the bottom. But I totally can see the sloppiness in PLUM 84's unnecessary battery space being still there repurposed as some support for the PCB.

For some other things: obnoxiously shiny plate - yeah, I also like perfect mirror-finish or brushed or powdered coated like the one on Poker2. And the thing I really mind is that they definitely can use dye-sub caps or offer some blank POM caps option.

For sure it is a product with also many desirable features, but I am not sure how 'best' are the current parts.

[Laser]

Maybe what all that these Topre-clone keyboards need (RoyalKludge, Plum etc.) is *only* an original Topre dome/rubber sheet to replace their own - you "suddenly" get a completely programmable, silenced and cheaper Topre keyboard in your desired format (shape, LEDs or POM keycaps etc.).

Except the case is cheaper, switch housing is scratchy, the plate not as quality and obnoxiously shiny (at least in the Plum I owned), and generally lower build quality overall. It would take more than a new dome sheet to improve the overall quality of the Topre-clone keyboards.

Yes, sure, if you compare it with a Topre keyboard, looking at precisely what a Topre keyboard already has to offer. My point was more to show a different direction: starting with a cheaper base price, you can get to something a Topre doesn't offer easily - programmability, POM keycaps, MX stems (or, where it offers it, it is at much higher $$$), different form factor - in a few words: you have more options to choose to improve what you value more, you can customize. If what you value the most are exactly what a Realforce offers, there's little point in modding a Topre clone to look and act like a genuine Topre, yes.

[zslane]

Exactly.

What I value first and foremost is a Topre-like tactile sensation at 45cN. Beyond that, I need MX stem compatability and a 60% form factor (with a standard layout). All other considerations are secondary.

[Orpheo]

A copy is and will always be a copy. I know only one case in the world where a copy is preferable to the real thing and that is the e-cigarette...

[zslane]

Believe me, I would prefer a genuine Topre board. Unfortunately, Topre doesn't make a 60% board with TMX switches. The Plum Nano 75 is the closest thing out there. It will have to do (assuming the tactility measures up, which I remain highly skeptical of).

[shreebles]

A copy is and will always be a copy.

Well this is more of an imitation rather than a copy.
I don't see Noppoo/Plum/NIC trying to copy the Realforce branding or look, but rather imitating the electrostatic capacitive sensing in their own keyboard designs.
Progress in any field can hardly be made without looking at current technology. You can't create a completely new, revolutionary design every day. It is much more sensible to take what is already available and try to improve it, or at least have your own try at the design. Fans of electrostatic capacitive sensing keyboards should embrace this trend because it gives them more options, while simultaneously putting pressure on Topre to innovate. The newest Realforce speaks volume about this. Backlighting? MX compatible stems? That was previously unheard of in the Topre world.

I for one am looking forward to receiving my "inferior Topre copy" soon. It brings something in one package that Topre cannot:

- Uniform low force actuation
- 60%+ formfactor with standard layout (WIN/Gui/Super keys!)
- MX stem compatibility
- Programmability!
- Bluetooth

I understand that the low force switches are seen as a disadvantage especially for those looking for tactility but I found low, subtle tactility to be something I can appreciate over time. I prefer low force MX browns over Zealios for instance, as higher tactility can get in the way of typing and gaming quickly.
I tried a variable weight Realforce and owned a Novatouch for a while and so far no genuine Topre board has convinced me to throw 250+€ at them. After using an MX keyboard almost exclusively for 6 months I might as well give the clones a try.

[zslane]

I understand that the low force switches are seen as a disadvantage especially for those looking for tactility but I found low, subtle tactility to be something I can appreciate over time.

The thing about really low tactility is that it becomes indistinguishable from linear, at which point you have to ask why even bother with it? If I want a quiet linear switch in a 60% form factor, I'll just stick with my Pok3r with MX silent reds. They sound and feel identical to the switches in my Noppoo. The only reason I am even considering the Plum Nano 75 is because I want to have tactility I can feel, like on my (45cN) silenced RealForce RGB, but in a 60% format.

[Menuhin]

I understand that the low force switches are seen as a disadvantage especially for those looking for tactility but I found low, subtle tactility to be something I can appreciate over time.

The thing about really low tactility is that it becomes indistinguishable from linear, at which point you have to ask why even bother with it? If I want a quiet linear switch in a 60% form factor, I'll just stick with my Pok3r with MX silent reds. They sound and feel identical to the switches in my Noppoo. The only reason I am even considering the Plum Nano 75 is because I want to have tactility I can feel, like on my (45cN) silenced RealForce RGB, but in a 60% format.

Then you can go the path of HHKB (which is 60%) + Hasu controller.

35g Topre clones on PLUM is very similar to linear, almost indistinguishable, but there is still this very subtle collapse of the domes, and with cushioned bottoming out (a major different from MX) like all the Topre switches and rubber domes. If I have to categorize them, they'd go more into the linear category in terms of the quick overall impression.

[t!ng]

The 45g in the Nano have enough tactility believe me. I own a 45g Topre and it is not that much more tactile.

[zslane]

Then you can go the path of HHKB (which is 60%) + Hasu controller.

The HHKB may be 60% in size, but it does not have the layout I want. Nor does it have TMX switches. It is critical that I be able to put SA keycaps on the board.

[zslane]

The 45g in the Nano have enough tactility believe me. I own a 45g Topre and it is not that much more tactile.

That is very encouraging!

[Laser]

At the time, I found this review quite ok: https://www.keychatter.com/2015/03/12/r ... 30-87-rgb/

See also the tactility related remarks in the section "Wut happens if remove dental bands?"

[Menuhin]

Then you can go the path of HHKB (which is 60%) + Hasu controller.

The HHKB may be 60% in size, but it does not have the layout I want. Nor does it have TMX switches. It is critical that I be able to put SA keycaps on the board.

I can see that you are an IJKL user on the 60%, and you use the Caps Lock as the Fn key which is a good layout of its own.
I think then it's more the HHKB layout difference that many users find difficult to accustom to, because for your SA caps, there are various replacement MX compatible sliders available at reasonable price out there.

Many people in keyboard forums have been asking for 55g version after the initial RK production, for overseas market, PLUM should think about introducing them again. If they use the same dome material and same weighing method, I can go for even 65g or more.

[shreebles]

I understand that the low force switches are seen as a disadvantage especially for those looking for tactility but I found low, subtle tactility to be something I can appreciate over time.

The thing about really low tactility is that it becomes indistinguishable from linear, at which point you have to ask why even bother with it?

See, that's the misunderstanding here. I mentioned that I can appreciate low tactility switches. Just because they are indistinguishable from linear switches for you doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else.

Then you can go the path of HHKB (which is 60%) + Hasu controller.

When you consider the price, layout difference and effort to convert it to Bluetooth it doesn't seem like the most sensible alternative. I understand people like the HHKB for its Unix layout but when you have to work with regular keyboards often it doesn't make sense to convert. Also, why would you leave out two keys in the bottom row, other than for its aesthetic and unique look? Even if you despise Windows, a super key can make every OS easier to work with.

35g Topre clones on PLUM is very similar to linear, almost indistinguishable, but there is still this very subtle collapse of the domes, and with cushioned bottoming out (a major different from MX) like all the Topre switches and rubber domes. If I have to categorize them, they'd go more into the linear category in terms of the quick overall impression.

See, it's funny, I praised specifically the experience these switches give me in the long run. NOT the "quick overall impression" because it is exactly why most people dislike a switch like that. It doesn't "pop" when they try it for the first time, but it can grow on you. They are not linear switches. They have a bump and they give feedback when you depress the switch. You have to really type on them for a while and be a light typist. When typing on linear switches I crave even this small feedback that seems "indistinguishable" for you guys.

[fruitalgorithm]

It doesn't "pop" when they try it for the first time, but it can grow on you.

This is true of so many switches. Especially for Topre first impressions can be underwhelming. Loud tactile switches like MX blues are fun and exciting from the start.

[Menuhin]

FYI, I typed on a PLUM '84' 35g Topre clone board for a few months, and then I bought a HHKB Pro 2 and almost totally abandoned the PLUM 84 board. Typing on the PLUM 84 35g was very comfortable to be honest, fingers felt almost like floating like clouds for the downstrokes and upstrokes, I would say even easier than on MX reds because I remembered I felt like just moving my fingers on my own. I also like the whistling sounds like those you here on HHKB Type-S. However, I have been in a quest looking for switches with smooth yet easily noticeable tactility.

To be honest, I have not yet (I wonder if I may never) totally got used to the default functional layer arrow keys of the HHKB - either because I don't want to move my right hand away from the home row so much for the arrow keys or that I am not comfortable with the diamond-shape two-finger style arrow cluster. So I tried getting back to the PLUM 84 (75% is my preferred format factor) by swapping in a Korean '55g' rubber dome sheet - I chose '55g' because I heard that the '45g' is not heavy enough. The result was, although it was still not as heavy and not as tactile as the 45g genuine Topre - with a '55g' Korean dome sheet, this greatly improved its tactility (and usability for me). After this dome-swap surgery, I believe its force curve will be different from that of '45g' Topre, but its feel was very close if not as good as the real 45g Topre.

However, on the course of trying to get used to the HHKB, I have made up my mind to dedicate myself to the HHKB layout - I mean the R2 1.5 Backspace, and the R1 vblash and tilde on the top right corner, apart from the L_Ctrl next to the 'A' key. So I set it aside and eventually sold it. As a reference, I think both the HHKB Pro 2 and the Korean-dome PLUM are heavier than my Sun Type 5c (a UNIX rubber dome board that has quite some following), and they all have nice key feels although of slightly different characteristics - they are all rubber domes after all.

I think the review above on KeyChatter of RK (sharing the same manufacturer AFAIK) is quite objective.

That was it.

Spoiler:

[zslane]

I assure you that there is zero tactility in my 35-40cN Noppoo EC108Pro. Not subtle tactility that grows on you over time. Zero tactility that is indistinguishable from linear all the time. Now, if a 45cN Plum feels like a 45cN NovaTouch, then I'll be happy. If it comes reasonably close, I'll probably still be happy. But if it feels too much like my Noppoo, then I will be disappointed.

As for swapping sliders on the HHKB, there seems to be this persistent myth that this is a useful operation to perform. But this is only true for the keycaps that don't involve stabilizers. There are no third-party MX-compatible sliders for Topre stabilized keys (i.e., 2u and larger). Consequently, a slider swap is a pointless exercise.

[davkol]

People have drilled the HHKB case before, so…

[zslane]

At the time, I found this review quite ok: https://www.keychatter.com/2015/03/12/r ... 30-87-rgb/

See also the tactility related remarks in the section "Wut happens if remove dental bands?"

I am a little skeptical of that review, and here's why.

Dental bands are significantly thicker than silencing rings. The super-thin rings that come with a Noppoo or Royal Kludge (or presumably a Plum) are much, much thinner than dental bands and reduce key travel almost imperceptibly. Noppoo/RK silencing rings appear to be the same rings that come factory installed in silenced Topre boards and HHKB Type-S boards, and also the kind you get when you purchase TMX switches from places like Aliexpress.

Hypersphere silencing rings, on the other hand, are at least 50% thicker than the super-thin factory rings. They reduce key travel more noticeably and bring Topre switches a bit closer to linear. They do, however, retain just enough of the switch's tactility that you can still perceive it as you type.

Putting rings as thick as dental bands on the sliders would reduce key travel and pre-compress the rubber dome so much that I can easily see how that would reduce a Topre switch (or any clone) to utter linearity. However, there is no form of factory silencing that I'm aware of that adds rings that thick, not even the Royal Kludge, so I wouldn't agree with that reviewer when he says, "It feels almost exactly like a dental banded Topre keyboard, and in fact, that’s because the RK is dental banded out of the box." I call BS on that purely on the basis of my Noppoo (which is the same product as the Royal Kludge just with a different brand name tag on it). Yes, these Chinese knock-offs are factory silenced, but they are not "dental banded" in the sense this reviewer is thinking (at least judging from the GeekHack post he links to).

So I remain uncertain what to expect from a 45cN Plum. *sigh*

[Laser]

The way I read it, the author didn't actually try a "real" dental-modded Topre, and probably just searched for a good term to describe the fact that the RK had silencing rings around its sliders (this would explain his confused terminology around the issue, at the same time). But what's certain is that he removed the o-rings from the RoyalKludge, so I'd look more at that part. But, yes, that's my reading of that review, who knows.

[Menuhin]

@zslane

I don't get what you meant by 'TMX'.
Are you talking about this? (but this is a key cap, not a switch, so probably I'm asking a noob question.)