Workspace ergonomics: your thoughts on keyboard trays

[Jim66]

I currently spend, I'd say, over 12 hours a day sat in front of my computer researching/reading/writing... And, well, my back and shoulders are in so much pain it isn't funny. So much so, that I'm forcing myself to re-think the way that my work space is laid out.

I think the problem lies in the fact, that I like to have my keyboard and mouse positioned quite deep on the desk (e.g., my elbows are are resting on the table and my upper back is away from the chair). I've tried moving the keyboard and mouse closer to me, but, because I'm usually reading and writing at the same time, I tend to use the space in front of me for the reading/paper and the keyboard gets pushed back.

I've tried getting as close to the typically recommended position (below), but I always seem to revert back to my old habits.



I use a decent humanscale task chair which comes with nice adjustable arm rests (I've currently taken them off) and I thought that using a keyboard/mouse tray, might force me to make use of them; hopefully improving my work posture.

My question is: do any of you guys use a keyboard and mouse tray like the one pictures below?



http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ergonomic-Compu ... 378wt_1139

Those of you that use/have used them; what do you think? Do they get in the way?

I don't particularly like the idea of using one, but if it's going to help with my back/shoulder pain, I'll give it a go.

Thanks,

James.

EDIT: I know a split chair mounted keyboard (i.e., one half on each arm rest) would be perfect; but sadly my girlfriend has already made it clear that if anything that even so much as looks like that enters our flat, she is never sleeping with me again.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

my only concern is that they might not be firm enough, better search for a video review before buying one

[Icarium]

EDIT: I know a split chair mounted keyboard (i.e., one half on each arm rest) would be perfect; but sadly my girlfriend has already made it clear that if anything that even so much as looks like that enters our flat, she is never sleeping with me again.

But...why?

In other news. I keep switching between a chair with arm rests and without all the time. I can't seem to set all this up so that I like it either. :/

[webwit]

If my gf made a statement like that I'd throw her out.

[Poo]

I work at least ten hours a day in front of a computer. And the only thing that you have to try is to focus on your position during some days. After that you should be able to stay in a correct position without thinking at it . And you can also try to take some pauses during the day, to relax your muscles.

[Lustique]

1) Get rid of gf.
2) Save a shitload of money.
3) ????
4) PROFIT!!!

Spoiler:

Unfortunately I also have back problems and the solution I found for me was to train the concerned muscles (gymnastics or something like that).

[Jim66]

It's a difficult one. I've tried so many adjustable desks and chairs over the years, yet still, I don't seem to be able to find that sweet spot where I can remain comfortable for long periods of time.

I even tried one of those silly ergonomic horse things...



They don't allow you to fidget or change body position; something I do a lot of when I'm stuck on a problem. It was in the bin within a week.

I think the moral of the story is don't sit in one place for 10+ hours each day.

[7bit]

1) Get rid of gf.
2) Save a shitload of money.
3) ????
4) PROFIT!!!


...

Renting a GF costs quite a lot more.

Also, it does not solve his problem.

I suggest to go to an ergo-therapist and make her fall in love with you. She will accept any sort of ergo-shit around you!

[Icarium]

It's a difficult one. I've tried so many adjustable desks and chairs over the years, yet still, I don't seem to be able to find that sweet spot where I can remain comfortable for long periods of time.

I even tried one of those silly ergonomic horse things...



They don't allow you to fidget or change body position; something I do a lot of when I'm stuck on a problem. It was in the bin within a week.

I think the moral of the story is don't sit in one place for 10+ hours each day.

I have a similar one but with a normal base so it turns easily and I absolutely love it. If you ignore the manual there are actually quite a few way to sit, slouch and perch on this thing.

[kbdfr]

I too have been spending many hours in front of my computer for years now.
The thing I found to be most important is the correct height of the chair, allowing the feet to rest flat on the floor. This is the basic level which determines all others.
My keyboard is placed on a board (not a wobbling tray) mounted to my desk just over my legs, as it if were on my lap. This way my forearms are horizontal when I type. The documents I work on are placed at a 45° angle between the keyboard and the screen.
And since I started using a Rollermouse (using the wrist rests only when "mousing"), all remaining shoulder and back pains disappeared.

[woody]

I think the moral of the story is don't sit in one place for 10+ hours each day.

And do some sports.

[sordna]

A good adjustable keyboard tray, that allows height, angle, etc adjustments is very helpful. If you get a basic one you might become frustrated with it. The one you pointed to seems pretty decent. I have my desk high and my keyboard tray low, this way I can type and be close to the desk, and have the desk free of keyboard/mouse stuff which gives me more room for papers and whatever.

[hoggy]

Some good advice here. You could talk to your doctor - hopefully they would refer you to a physio.

I've got one of these at work


Variety helps (helps me at least).

In the meantime, stick your keyboard to the desk - blue tack might do the the job.

Talk to your HR department, they might be able to help in other ways, too.

If you've got other health issues (even if it's really minor), then tryto get them sorted too. A little progress will help your mood.

Make sure you're super nice to everyone - smile a lot.

Hope you get it sorted soon.

[Lustique]

1) Get rid of gf.
2) Save a shitload of money.
3) ????
4) PROFIT!!!


...

Renting a GF costs quite a lot more.

Also, it does not solve his problem.[...]

Well, there is always a pay-off. Perhaps there are flatrates available.

Yes, it did, he can now get a split chair mounted keyboard and someone else to sleep with.

Spoiler:

Oh, and if I had a gf that would care so much about my health, I would ditch her immediately, true story. ²

[Jim66]

A good adjustable keyboard tray, that allows height, angle, etc adjustments is very helpful. If you get a basic one you might become frustrated with it. The one you pointed to seems pretty decent. I have my desk high and my keyboard tray low, this way I can type and be close to the desk, and have the desk free of keyboard/mouse stuff which gives me more room for papers and whatever.

Thanks sordna, this sounds like the kind of setup that I was thinking of. Thanks for the advice!

[Jim66]

Some good advice here. You could talk to your doctor - hopefully they would refer you to a physio.

In the meantime, stick your keyboard to the desk - blue tack might do the the job.

Talk to your HR department, they might be able to help in other ways, too.

If you've got other health issues (even if it's really minor), then tryto get them sorted too. A little progress will help your mood.

Make sure you're super nice to everyone - smile a lot.

Hope you get it sorted soon.

Thanks hoggy, great advice. I've stuck my keyboard to the desk using blue tack, I'll see how I get on with it.

P.s., It's a nice setup you have there.

Your right about the little things, they can make a big difference to your mood and how I'm able to concentrate on the work I'm doing.

[huttala]

I sit at the computer a lot as well, but I don't have these problems anymore.

My key to happiness was to switch positions all the time, I don't sit the same way more then 30min at the time, that variety makes my body like me again, if you haven't tried that, do it, works for me.

[hoggy]

Jim66, how are you getting on?

[Jim66]

Jim66, how are you getting on?

Thanks for the interest, sorry it took me so long to post.

Well... Not so great. I broke the trapezoid in my right hand after a mountain biking accident! I now have a lovely cast around my thumb, hand, all they way up to my elbow. It is however worth nothing that just before the accident I started using my 5000 again; I was loving typing on it and my back pain subsided by what felt a significant amount!

I took your advice and moved the board closer to me on the desk; I also tacked it down so I couldn't just push it back. This allowed me to make use of the arm and back rests (I wasn't hunched over the board like usual).

Sooooo.... (I'll have to be brief here, I could discuss this topic for ages), I ended up reading loads of old GH threads about the merits of split board/matrix/inverted left hand qwerty (i.e., uTron)/qwerty... ect; I thought that the following were the most interesting points/conclusions:

1). A split keyboard isn't automatically better than a regular one; it's dependent on how you sit at your desk. I wish I could find the thread on GH, there was a really good discussion about this (before I was de-railed into a useless meme competition). Essentially, it went like this; elbows by your side, keyboard just in front of you (same height as your elbows) a regular keyboard doesn't feel odd on your wrists. If you have your elbows quite wide on the desk then and 'ergonomic' split/tilt-able board should be better as it allows you to keep your wrists in the straight line. Some suggested that having a split board places more strain on the shoulders as the posture it produces isn't as natural as having your arms by your side; I'm not sure about this, everything is supported by the desk isn't it? For me at least, a split/tilt-able board is more comfortable.

2). I can't say I'm all that convinced by the 'split board/matrix/inverted left hand qwerty (i.e., uTron)/qwerty' argument. The one where they point out how horrible qwerty is on your wrists and then suggest how a matrix solves this problems...



Here, the 'straw-man' is that for a key layout to be better on your wrists, the keys must be set out in a way that it follows the way in which the fingers natural extend. So, if we were to take this literally we could suggest:

Qwerty - Terrible on your left hand/wrist.
Matrix (i.e., kinesis, Maltron) - Better.
Inverted left hand qwerty - Best.

For me, I think that it is the location (i.e., how far apart the halves of the board are) and rotation of the halves of the board that make it better for your carpel muscles; not the stagger of the keys. For example, the TE, an improvement with the matrix layout, but still, the halves aren't angled inwards enough, nor are the far enough apart. Your carpels still end up under strain (of course this again depends on where your arms are located).

Location and rotation, I bet would account for the majority of the variance, key stagger, not so much.

I'm just a little dubious about whether having the key stagger a specific way really makes a difference. Our fingers are capable of moving in all directions, they do so all day long. When we learn a keyboard layout, there is most likely some kind of complex interaction between our motor cortex and other distributed systems that we end up calling 'muscle memory'. My point is, the difference in finger movement between layouts is likely to be sooo small, indeed, you probs make the same movements in qwerty and matrix, you would just be pressing different keys.

My conclusion? Comfortableness while tying for long periods of time is likely to be due to the location of your arms/shoulders (obvious I know).

Arm/shoulder location = (location of board on desk * location and rotation of board halves) + something to do with sensible key locations.

Soooo, with this in mind, I'm going to root for the uTron. The halves are freely rotatable and movable (you have many options) and there is a very well thought out layout (i.e., placing backspace, shift, enter ect on index fingers).

I'll need to find out what works for me when I get this damn cast off. As you might have guess, I am considering the uTron as my next purchase.

[itlnstln]

I agree (if I'm reading you right). Point 2 (from the marketing POV) and the accompanying pic, IMO, is total horse shit. That pic looks like people have two right hands. I don't type like that, and no one else I know does either. Looking down at my keyboard, the only keys that appear to be in "no-man's-land" is "B" and maybe "Y." I have always typed "6" with my left hand, but that's just the way my left hand and fingers naturally extend.

Oh, wait...

The only thing that makes a keyboard more comfortable is, to your point, the amount of split (and the ability to adjust it) between the two halves so you have proper shoulder width and rotation that fits your wrist angle.

[Jim66]

I agree (if I'm reading you right). Point 2 (from the marketing POV) and the accompanying pic, IMO, is total horse shit. That pic looks like people have two right hands. I don't type like that, and no one else I know does either. Looking down at my keyboard, the only keys that appear to be in "no-man's-land" is "B" and maybe "Y." I have always typed "6" with my left hand, but that's just the way my left hand and fingers naturally extend.

Oh, wait...

The only thing that makes a keyboard more comfortable is, to your point, the amount of split (and the ability to adjust it) between the two halves so you have proper shoulder width and rotation that fits your wrist angle.

Yeah, that is my point exactly. I think that this whole 'ergonomic layout business' I just a way of marketing a badly thought out board. Some evidence (I'm talking peer reviewed papers, not that silly pdf that they have on their site) that this:



Is better than this:



Or this:



If the ergodox ever gets made it'll be a lovely board! You can rotate the matrix anyway you want and you can place the halves anywhere on the desk.



I know I've got a little off topic from my original question about keyboard trays, but.... To sum up: I feel that an 'ergonomic layout' is pointless without the correct placement of the halves.

[Icarium]

Which is exactly why my Kinesis is going to get the saw.
I still need a good idea for feet though, I want vertical position adjustments as well.

[Jim66]

Yeah, from what I understand input nirvana has been toying with this idea for a while now.

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:8110

[Poo]

I think I just found what you need
Now you just have to convince your wife !

[Icarium]

I bet this costs as much as a car or maybe a small appartment. :p

[Input Nirvana]

I think I just found what you need
Now you just have to convince your wife !

If you have that, you don't need a wife!

[rodtang]

If you have that, you don't need a wife!

Sandwiches.

[Jim66]

Necrobump!

A bit of an update. I managed to snag one of these for 75 from ebay the other day, bargain as they're 500+ in the shops.



I've been using it for about 4 days now and I absolutely love it! I think the main problem that I was having before was simply that my chair wouldn't extend high enough for my relatively high desk!

[vivalarevolución]

Have you tried a standing work station with a tall stool to sit when you get tired? I was sitting as work and sitting at home and back started hurting. Now I have a standing work station with the tall chair and love the variation.

[Multiple]

My lower back was killing me until I found the right chair, an aeron. I know it's cliché or what ever, but the pain I had been living with for a year disappeared in two weeks sitting in one of those. Next up is an envelop table, that should take care of the shoulders.