F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[green-squid]

That's why I hope he WON'T discard them!

I know how to read, but that still doesn't tell me what he could do with them if they're not sold nor discarded.

He can discard them for Plum!

[nsmechkb]

But that's not a good choice.

Your enthusiasm is charming, green-squid. Never change.

[Myoth]

That's why I hope he WON'T discard them!

I know how to read, but that still doesn't tell me what he could do with them if they're not sold nor discarded.

He can discard them for Plum!

maybe you don't understand the word discard ?



here's both a translation and synonyms ...

throw out to plum ? doesn't makes much sense to me ...

[green-squid]

dawg! I got it, he wants to throw them out. But I (and many others) don't. They can get a new life at Plum, or wherever else they can continue making them Don't be so set on that comment. Keep our hopes up a bit

[wobbled]

Well at the end of the day its ellipses choice. Just buy whatever you need while you still can.

[samuelnsh]

Although Ellipse's reply has indicated that he's going to discard the molds, I don't think that should preclude attempts by others to persuade Ellipse otherwise. Of course, this is Ellipse's project and he holds the final decision over what he does with the molds, but I don't see harm in a little bit of discussion on the matter.

I do personally hope that the molds aren't simply discarded, or that the design can be open-sourced. I've order two keyboards from Ellipse so I'll probably not buy more henceforth. However, I would love the option of getting more keycaps, or spicing things up by switching to other chassis in the far future.

Until we can get an answer from Ellipse, perhaps it could be constructive to consider the pros and cons of selling the manufacturing tools and processes in Ellipse's shoes. I'll list a few that I can think of:

Pros:

• The legacy of the project can continue. Ellipse gave birth to Modern Model Fs and manufactured the first two batches, but other parties can take over the torch.
• (Future) owners of the Modern Model F, as well as owners of old Model Fs may use keycaps, springs, and other components from the continuation of this project to maintain or modify keyboards that they own.
• Eventually, other keyboard designs may emerge using capacitive buckling spring switches based on techniques revived by Ellipse. I'll surely jump on the bandwagon of a capacitive buckling spring Ergodox!

Cons:

• Quality of the keyboard might degrade after other manufacturers take over. This might render some of the advantages listed above moot, and in fact hurt the reputation of even the original keyboards.
• As it stands, the Modern Model F keyboards are going to become rare items given the limited planned production runs. Selling the manufacturing process would completely strip away this project's "legendary" status.

There could be some remedies to the quality concerns. Let's say Ellipse sells the manufacturing process to PLUM, Ellipse (probably) has the option to withhold the chassis and mandate that PLUM makes visually different chassis that would make it easy for anyone to distinguish the differences between Ellipse's Model F and PLUM's Model F. Ellipse could also make PLUM agree to sell the keyboard under other names. I'm no legal expert so those who are more knowledgeable could chime in on this front.

I'll have to end this comment here without a coherent conclusion to get productive at work. To reiterate, I personally think that selling/open-sourcing the project is going to benefit the community, but this admittedly might not be in Ellipse's best interests. This is Ellipse's project, I'm sure that we will all respect Ellipse's final decision when it comes to that. In the meantime, I don't think some attempts at persuading Ellipse towards selling/open-sourcing the project in the future could hurt as long as we're polite, civil, and constructive!

[green-squid]

Well at the end of the day its ellipses choice. Just buy whatever you need while you still can.

[Blaise170]

Well at the end of the day its ellipses choice. Just buy whatever you need while you still can.

I'm actually a prepper of sorts... I have some emergency equipment stashed away so that I could get the hell out if I needed to at a moment's notice. But that's a thread for another day!

[FXT]

I would just hate to see anything Model F related associated with inferior quality. There's plenty of cheap Model Fs out there (they also don't skimp on build quality), but the 4704 is special and shouldn't be made "cheaper."

[green-squid]

I would just hate to see anything Model F related associated with inferior quality. There's plenty of cheap Model Fs out there (they also don't skimp on build quality), but the 4704 is special and shouldn't be made "cheaper."

Just because a cheaper option would be available, it doesn't mean that all Model Fs will be associated with that one. Makes no sense.

And no, model Fs are getting damn near impossible to find for good prices, ESPECIALLY not in europe!

[Ellipse]

Thanks all for the interesting discussion points on both sides. I agree let's hold off thinking about the future until after these keyboards pass final quality control and finish shipping. I will see where things stand then, but for now the final round will be later this year. I expect the factories to hold onto the tooling for at least a year or so with no storage or maintenance fees to ensure there are no latent defects in the parts or materials that require re-making the parts.

The Model F reproduction project involves more than making parts from molds. The files, material specifications, tooling, and best practices/quality control that have been worked on over the years are essential parts of the project. For these reasons there won't be any firms taking over.

If you are thinking of getting a Brand New Model F Keyboard please order one this year.

[green-squid]

Thank you for the response, ellipse! I hope all will be fine and cool in the end.

[Elrick]

The Model F reproduction project involves more than making parts from molds. The files, material specifications, tooling, and best practices/quality control that have been worked on over the years are essential parts of the project. For these reasons there won't be any firms taking over.

That is why there was never any pick-up of re-manufacturing the Model-F series due to extreme Complexity. You really think the morons of business TODAY have any talent to make a model-F yet again, no way Jose.

The mainstream will ONLY get the mundane and idiot easy keyboards, like the Cherry MX production line with any style of MX switch applied. Maybe that is why this Model-F became so popular due to NOT being another rehash of Cherry Corp's design.

That is why Ellipse's keyboard design caught this attention because a tiny bit of the population HATE the current mainstream of fake media and keyboards, being pushed onto the inept and clueless 24/7.

If you are thinking of getting a Brand New Model F Keyboard please order one this year.

You got it from the Man himself, there will be NO do-overs or 2nd rendition's being done in the future.

Remember this time in your life, either you got smart and bought this splendid keyboard now or you decided to rejoin the herd of ingrates and the brainless in accepting the status-quo of Life.

You've only got ONE valuable life, don't waste it on another Cherry MX styled keyboard.....

[wcass]

The record for 100 meter sprint has been broken 18 times in the last 50 years. That does not mean that the 100 meter sprint has only been run 18 times. Lots of people run the 100, just maybe not as fast as Usain Bolt. "Because you can't" is no reason not to try. Also, anyone that tells you that the current record will never be broken doesn't understand history.

There will be more new buckling spring keyboards as long as there are people that want them enough. Whether they will be as good as the original or these replicas cant be judged until they are made. I for one think that they can get better if we work hard to do better.

I'm not normally one for quotes in signatures, but this seems appropriate.

We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one we intend to win, and the others, too.

[andrea-i]

I will say the most unpopular thing EVER, *EVER*.
Since I moved from an F XT to a model M...I actually like the M sound and feel better.
But I'm nuts for that f77 layout. I'm f*kd.

[green-squid]

That is why there was never any pick-up of re-manufacturing the Model-F series due to extreme Complexity. You really think the morons of business TODAY have any talent to make a model-F yet again, no way Jose.

I think the 'morons' who are making almost every electronics product on Earth must be doing something right.

That is why Ellipse's keyboard design caught this attention because a tiny bit of the population HATE the current mainstream of fake media and keyboards, being pushed onto the inept and clueless 24/7.

While the market is full of Cherry MX and that's what the average joe knows, I don't think this has anything to do with 'Fake news' conspiracy theories

You got it from the Man himself, there will be NO do-overs or 2nd rendition's being done in the future.

Remember this time in your life, either you got smart and bought this splendid keyboard now or you decided to rejoin the herd of ingrates and the brainless in accepting the status-quo of Life.

Sorry man, but I will never have $400 to blow on just a keyboard (especially not now that I'm 15). I get that it's worth the price and this is a quality product, but if it will be possible, it would be better for everyone to have another option. This doesn't mean that somebody is brainless for not buying some keyboard.

You've only got ONE valuable life, don't waste it on another Cherry MX styled keyboard.....

[/quote]

Only bought one Cherry MX keyboard in my life and typing this on my Model M

[Elrick]

I think the 'morons' who are making almost every electronics product on Earth must be doing something right.

Catering to the lowest Common denominator is what has transpired. Same time the popularity of Vintage keyboards has risen accordingly, some related issues there perhaps?

PR campaigns have of course helped the populace embrace the mundane and souless as something unique and valuable, we can see here on this forum site the result of all this so-called "Cherry-love" the complete utter hatred of it .

Geekhack would be more sorted to those who worship this Cherry Affliction but thank Gawd not here.

While the market is full of Cherry MX and that's what the average joe knows, I don't think this has anything to do with 'Fake news' conspiracy theories

PR and fake news go hand in hand, it helps alleviate the most important part of REAL information by ignoring facts when presenting a sale of product or an ideal. No difference with the proliferation of all Cherry Hardware, cheap and easy to build but you get the very same out put of a soulless keyboard. Remember the PR side of things to push something worthless as something unique and vital, it works because companies pay BIG money for it.

Sorry man, but I will never have $400 to blow on just a keyboard (especially not now that I'm 15). I get that it's worth the price and this is a quality product, but if it will be possible, it would be better for everyone to have another option.

I've got 6 minions to clothe, feed, educate, entertain and look after, when in charge of so many how do you think I could still afford to buy keyboards on the side? It's called 'determination' regardless of your situation. Always "cheaper to settle for something less" I was once like you but after living far longer than you, I found out that waiting and saving then putting down the money, is far more important than dreaming about anything else.

This Ellipse keyboard is expensive but once it's gone that's it, I refuse to pass my remaining days thinking about missing out on owning any Ellipse keyboard.

Cheap-arse Cherry keyboards and Model-Ms will always be available in the future BUT not the Ellipse Model-F Keyboard.

[Blaise170]

Thank god we have choice on what keyboard we want to buy. I've owned two different model F boards and I didn't like them very much. I prefer Alps...

[darkcruix]

Thank god we have choice on what keyboard we want to buy. I've owned two different model F boards and I didn't like them very much. I prefer Alps...

How boring would be this world if we all would prefer the same thing? I am so glad we all have a choice.

[nickg]

The molds really dont matter that much... Even IF he were to sell them who is to say they'd be used on model F or even M keyboards? The case could be used on about any board a company wanted to put in it. Keys could be sold to buckling spring geeks like us.

Like i said i hope he releases the designs/data if he doesnt plan to use em again just cause im curious about all this stuff. Yeah without the tooling that may also be useless(unless he has tooling designs but i doubt that) motly I just wanna learn all I can about these awesome things. But if not then meh I'll use my f77 and be happy

[green-squid]

The molds really dont matter that much... Even IF he were to sell them who is to say they'd be used on model F or even M keyboards? The case could be used on about any board a company wanted to put in it. Keys could be sold to buckling spring geeks like us.

Like i said i hope he releases the designs/data if he doesnt plan to use em again

This! Open source FTW!

[hansichen]

You've only got ONE valuable life, don't waste it on another Cherry MX styled keyboard.....

Thanks daddy

[Aer Fixus]

motly I just wanna learn all I can about these awesome things.

All the information is out there. How it works, the dimensions of the mechanisms, the radius of the plate plus documentation along the way of Ellipse doing all these things. Yeah, sure, the 3D models don't exist publicly, but that's the least of anyone's concerns when it comes to manufacturing. He had 3D models for a very long time before he found a plant that could manufacture them for a reasonable cost to the spec he wanted all from a reputable company. Anyone can make a 3D model. You can make the 3D model if you want it badly enough. Or pay someone else to do it. The cost of this service will be minuscule compared to the production costs themselves.

But remember, if you leave out Ellipse's polish, you get a mediocre board that looks like Model F, but doesn't type like one. When an American thinks of a Chinese made product in a negative light, it's not because good things can't come out of China, but because so many companies are striving for the cheapest they can go and choose China because of it's cost (or a Chinese company does the same). They cut corners. And one of the easiest corners to cut is polish. They put every saved dollar into advertising and make more money than if they had made a product that stands on it's own, like Ellipse has.

Who needs PBT keys or crisp, accurate dye sublimation? Who needs a metal case? Who needs a metal barrel plate? Who needs the springs to be that consistent? What about the color and texture being exactly the same as IBM made? Individual serial numbers? More than one layout? Perfect IBM backwards compatibility in every sense of the word?

Ellipse does. And we wants those things. But a company who takes the reigns to make a continuous product needs to make money. And all those things don't line up with making a profit. The product either needs to be more expensive, or cost less to make. And people already complain about the price, which is already at-cost.

[darkcruix]

I can only emphasize the comment from Aer Fixus. From my personal point of view: this project is to get the best quality keyboard possible that fits my personal taste best. Other likely will want a back light keyboard with RGB lighting etc. Nothing wrong with it! Ellipse went for exactly what he wanted to built and this is exactly why I can't wait to get my hands on one of the keyboards.
We all should wait and see where we are headed. Let's get the initial round done and delivered and then the second round being in process, before any discussion is done around what happens next... Ellipse, put your energy into getting us over the last milestones.

[green-squid]

I don't want RGB lighting, even though I probably made everybody hate me, and I apologize for that

[Blaise170]

I do appreciate the amount of energy going into this project, but it's just not for me. I'd probably get one for $50 just for novelty's sake, but I know that's not feasible given the amount of development put into it. I can totally see someone spending $400 on one who really wants a modern model F though, if it's the keyboard you really want. I'd gladly spend that amount for a new Alps keyboard with aluminum shell and standard layout. Frankly, it's probably what I'll do in the future with a V80 and Vortex case.

I don't want RGB lighting, even though I probably made everybody hate me, and I apologize for that

Meh others and myself don't really mind, as you have great enthusiasm, but for your sake you might want to tone down just a tad, lest Elrick throws a brick at you!

[green-squid]

Meh others and myself don't really mind, as you have great enthusiasm, but for your sake you might want to tone down just a tad, lest Elrick throws a brick at you!

I hope he doesn't throw a brick at me! He is really.. invested (let's just say that ) in keyboards. Hope he's doing OK in the 4th world country of Down Under

[Elrick]

Hope he's doing OK in the 4th world country of Down Under

Dictator's always do well in 3rd and 4th World Countries - FACT .

[evoman]

One of the reasons I would love to see some availability of these keyboards in the future is that I might decide I want a different case or layout, or one for my home office. I am already in for one, plus a load of extras, but I don't want to lay out that much again until I actually get to use the first one. That would be too much to lay out for a somewhat unknown product (despite the basic design being out there for decades, and my having used a Model M for ages - this is still its own product, yet to be proven)

[Elrick]

I am already in for one, plus a load of extras, but I don't want to lay out that much again until I actually get to use the first one.

Same here, I only laid down moolah for ONE single F77 keyboard, beginning of last year (I think). Need to first get this keyboard before deciding upon buying more in the near future.

That would be too much to lay out for a somewhat unknown product (despite the basic design being out there for decades, and my having used a Model M for ages - this is still its own product, yet to be proven)

EXACTLY. As much as I like Ellipse his actual production and delivery of this keyboard will depend upon the ONLY certain reality here, how it feels to type upon it. If it fails you will see many giving up and jumping off their buildings hence the pressure for Ellipse to deliver a SUPERB version of a Model-F mechanism, is constantly there for him.

It's all that pressure to perform which will leave most running away never to return but I've seen him before cope with vastly difficult situations and he triumphs at the end of it by finishing it superbly. This is his GREATEST feat thus far, to produce this keyboard so we need to wait and see how it will perform.