Bucking Springs, worth it?

[hellothere]

... Back to OP, although I also like old Jags ...

I think you might be very surprised and happy with Kailh Thick Click Jade or Navy. You can easily pop them into an RGB case. They're also pretty cheap.

[MMMaus]

I absolutely love my 1986 Model M. The typing feels great but it feels quite different from Cherry MX and clones. I wouldn't jump into buying one without trying it out first. Unicomp still builds Model Ms. They use the original machines to produce their modern version but the quality is not exactly the same as the old Model Ms. LGR made a review of the Unicomp version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rH4X8nvn4Y

[an_achronism]

I absolutely love my 1986 Model M. The typing feels great but it feels quite different from Cherry MX and clones. I wouldn't jump into buying one without trying it out first. Unicomp still builds Model Ms. They use the original machines to produce their modern version but the quality is not exactly the same as the old Model Ms. LGR made a review of the Unicomp version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rH4X8nvn4Y

I'll jump to their defense here: that isn't what their newest products are like. He bought an old model made with old tooling (the same tooling that Lexmark was using in the 90s) but they now have the "New Model M" and "Mini M" (SSK) that are made with brand new tooling.

I have a New Model M and it's significantly nicer, although I personally had a few minor issues with mine (mostly cosmetic, bar one) which I think are almost entirely down to them being extremely busy atm because of launching two new models and having too many orders to fulfil and not enough staff to fulfil them.

EDIT: I recently grabbed a 1990 IBM Model M made in Greenock and it was really quite similar to my New Model M in terms of key feel, although perhaps a tiny bit lighter, maybe a touch more fluid, but it's hard to put my finger on exactly what the difference is (it's definitely there but it's relatively subtle). So if it's mostly how it feels to type on that you're concerned with, I wouldn't really have an issue recommending Unicomp, just buy one of the two newest models and not an older one. If you're likely to be annoyed by small cosmetic issues though, maybe don't go that route. A lot of the legends on mine are a bit squint, and the space bar is a fraction of a millimetre off-centre, for example; there's also a small dark line in the moulding of the top case. All of these things kind of annoy me, but that's probably at least partially because I shipped one all the way from Lexington to Glasgow and it cost a lot of money to get it here, and psychologically it's irritating to have spent so much and then got something that isn't quite as perfect as I'd hoped. But none of it makes it any less of a joy to use.

[MMMaus]

I am not saying that Unicomp makes bad keyboards, quite the contrary, but the build quality is different from IBM Model Ms. Even Lexmark Model Ms are different from IBM Model Ms and neither Lexmark nor Unicomp Model Ms are in fact bad keyboards.

[an_achronism]

I am not saying that Unicomp makes bad keyboards, quite the contrary, but the build quality is different from IBM Model Ms. Even Lexmark Model Ms are different from IBM Model Ms and neither Lexmark nor Unicomp Model Ms are in fact bad keyboards.

No, I know. My point was that their recent stuff is a huge step up from what they have been doing for years, and that merits a mention. Honestly, build-quality-wise, the New Model M isn't particularly much worse than the original IBM 1990 one, it's just that they used slightly less plastic (and a different sort of plastic) for the case, which is admittedly ever so slightly less robust but not by much.

[whm1974]

I don't see Backlighting as "Bells and Whistles". It is for many highly useful.

[raoulduke-esq]

Some light on the keyboard can be helpful indeed! I only have RGB on my ZSA boards so I went a little different route to help with my vintage boards because I prefer to keep my office relatively dim overall with bright light right where I need it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08DKQ3JG1

This illuminates the keyboard and any papers I have near it on the desk without glare on any of my monitors. Benq made the original and its over $100 but I have no complaints with this cheaper one. The auto-dimming is nice and the ability to adjust temperature helps too.

[Tritian]

when I started this hobby, i wanted a keyboard that: felt good, had a volume knob, and a backlight.

now that I've used lots of different keyboards, worked on my own, tried various mx platform switches and a smattering of different vintage switches, I can say now that backlighting is actually not important at all, it just looks kinda cool, but after awhile you just put it on the dimmest setting, some none-abhorrent color, and forget about it. Could vintage boards use backlighting? Sure, i guess? Shrug.

I still wouldn't mind a volume knob, although just binding volume buttons work fine in a pinch.

As I said before, basically all mx switches kinda feel two-dimensional, desaturated... after trying some of the better vintage switches.

[fohat]

I still wouldn't mind a volume knob

Outboard USB volume knobs work pretty well. And on my larger keyboards I have Up-Down-Mute-Pause buttons, too, for a variety of control methods.

[Muirium]

I always put media keys on a layer (right where the HHKB puts them) and if I'm using something really big, like TKL!, native volume keys go on the trio of keys at the top right: Scroll Lock etc. Always helps to keep them consistently placed with all your different individual keyboards.

As for lighting: can't you touch-type man? I do it all wrong, myself, but it works. If you're looking for keys, you're doing it wrong!

Mind, I do actually like having the white backlight on (its lowest setting) on my MacBook Air. The keys look prettier when lit up a bit, against the screen right above them. I'm not generally hunting for a key to peck, however! It's a visual appeal thing.

[Bjerrk]

I always thought the old Thinkpads got it (more or less) right. They had a little lamp where the webcam would go nowadays, and it was angled just so that it would illuminate the keyboard and whatever documents you had lying on/in front of the laptop during a meeting or lecture, without being too distracting to anyone.

As for media keys, I honestly just put them on a layer. Dedicated ones are unnecessary to me. I really like using CapsLock for Fn and the putting volume down/up/mute on A, S and D. Then they can easily be operated with one hand - being right next to the Fn key.

[depletedvespene]

As for media keys, I honestly just put them on a layer. Dedicated ones are unnecessary to me. I really like using CapsLock for Fn and the putting volume down/up/mute on A, S and D. Then they can easily be operated with one hand - being right next to the Fn key.

What I do (as it's very easy to do with a Soarer's converter remapping) is to overload the Caps Lock key. Vol. Up = LALT+Caps Lock; Vol. down = LCtrl+Caps Lock; Mute: Shift(either)+Caps Lock. RALT ain't an option, as I'd rather not disturb AltGr, and RCTRL+Caps Lock I use for something else.

[Bjerrk]

As for media keys, I honestly just put them on a layer. Dedicated ones are unnecessary to me. I really like using CapsLock for Fn and the putting volume down/up/mute on A, S and D. Then they can easily be operated with one hand - being right next to the Fn key.

What I do (as it's very easy to do with a Soarer's converter remapping) is to overload the Caps Lock key. Vol. Up = LALT+Caps Lock; Vol. down = LCtrl+Caps Lock; Mute: Shift(either)+Caps Lock. RALT ain't an option, as I'd rather not disturb AltGr, and RCTRL+Caps Lock I use for something else.

Yeah, that certainly works too! Then you can even keep CapsLock as CapsLock (when used on its own), if need be. I just have this strange aversion to the Locking of Caps. I believe it came from having a keyboard at some point where it was exceedingly easy to hit Caps Lock by mistake when writing e.g. A or Tabbing.

[an_achronism]

My media keys are mapped with Alt Gr + the cluster around the upper right corner of the main block:



I don't use those keys for Alt Gr combos and it means I can get media keys on any board, regardless of whether it has Windows or Fn keys or whatever. Alt Gr is also my Compose key, though I occasionally change my mind and use right Ctrl.

For Caps Lock, I map that to Super / Windows key so that I don't get used to pressing it on the default position and then hit nothing on boards that don't have the key there, and then map the Caps Lock function to Shift + Super/Win so I can hit Shift + Caps Lock to turn it on. To toggle it off, I have it set to switch off with a single press of Super/Win if it's on, but not turn on with a single press if it's off.

[esr]

Let me chime in and observe that the Uncomp New Model M (which I'm typing on now) is very similar in design and durability to an M from the Lexmark years, 1991-1996. Not as tanklike as the earlier IBM variants, but a biiig step up from what Unicomp was shipping before they refreshed their tooling in 2020.

[keyboard Kultist]

[\quote\]

Well the way I heard it, a female employee gotten tired of a male employee, maybe her boss Sexually Harassing her all the time, in a fit picked up said KB and knock him out. She then continue working.

Talk about Well Made.
[/quote]

And the keyboard was good too!

[Xcore]

I got one of Ellipse F77s and when I move it around, I dread dropping it.

Not for the keyboard's sake of cause, but a plank of my floor would be gone. Probably the screed below it as well.

[raoulduke-esq]

I got one of Ellipse F77s and when I move it around, I dread dropping it.

Not for the keyboard's sake of cause, but a plank of my floor would be gone. Probably the screed below it as well.

I had to make sure my wall mounts were screwed into studs because there's no way drywall anchors alone would hold those things...

[lhutton]

The lack of media keys on the Unicomps and classic Ms don't bother me as I use cmus and mpv that can be mapped to other keybinds.

So here's a thought, even if someone were interested in making an RGB buckling spring board would it be technically possible? I don't know a lot about modern RGB boards but don't they use transparent switch housings with a lens to allow the light through? Buckling springs have to have a barrel mount of some kind and there wouldn't be a switch housing to act like a lens for the LEDs. Even if you made a Model M or Model F barrel plate transparent and put LEDs in the membrane wouldn't the light just kind of fart out everywhere instead of being directed by the housing like with the RGB Cherry type switches? Seems like you'd need some casing or lens element to get the light where you'd want it.

[Tribal]

MX mount switches have a “window” for the light to shine through - with a + shaped stem, there’s no way to make the light go straight up that stem. I think a barrel plate could be modified to have an LED peeking out from outside each barrel from the “north” or “south.”

There’s some chance each LED could be in its barrel in the well above the flipper. That would eliminate light bleed, if anyone cares about that.

[Tritian]

of course you'd need buckling spring keycaps that were doubleshot to let the light through, and there is no such thing.

[Tribal]

Could you make the caps out of clear PBT and then dye sublimate everything except the lettering? Alternatively, if we’re sticking with existing tooling, a shine through sticker/printing on a clear stem covered by a clear cap?

I think it would make sense to create a new barrel plate out of clear plastic with integrated or attached LEDs rather than trying to retrofit LEDs to an existing one. The flat-ish part could be painted or left clear depending on the desired effect.

At this point, though, we’re dangerously close to someone creating a clear outer case with a koi pond or moon landing or mountain scene like with artisan keycaps. Blue/green RGB waves and acrylic filling to make the case heavier. Drums in the deep.

[Coeus]

Some light on the keyboard can be helpful indeed! I only have RGB on my ZSA boards so I went a little different route to help with my vintage boards because I prefer to keep my office relatively dim overall with bright light right where I need it.

I have an IBM Model F XT and I find the KB being white/cream rather than black means I can see the keycaps just by the light of the monitor. Obviously that does depend to a certain extent on what is on the screen at the time.

[Coeus]

The new Model Fs are incredible value for what they are, they're cheaper than the Fs of yore even before you adjust for inflation. Just because overengineered 80's tech was considered junk for a while doesn't mean it wasn't expensive to make.

I assume you mean compared to an original Model F when it was new. They certainly aren't cheaper than the price I paid for a second hand Model F XT.

Of course, the Model F XT doesn't come with a USB interface so you have to add a converter but as soon as you have one of those you also have a way to re-map the keys without having to hack on the keyboard itself directly.

[Tritian]

I assume you mean compared to an original Model F when it was new. They certainly aren't cheaper than the price I paid for a second hand Model F XT.

I'm sure he was referring to when they were new. However, go find an F77 or kishsaver nowadays and see how much you'd spend to get one, if you can find one. I don't think comparing an F XT is a valid comparision, as these boards are reproductions of those 4704 Model F's

[Muirium]

Correct. If you push real hard though, you can just about move the goalposts wherever you need them.

Even the humble XT isn’t as cheap as it used to be, of course. An F is an F. Anyone know IBM’s original selling price for them?

[Hypersphere]

Correct. If you push real hard though, you can just about move the goalposts wherever you need them.

Even the humble XT isn’t as cheap as it used to be, of course. An F is an F. Anyone know IBM’s original selling price for them?

Not sure if XT keyboards were sold separately -- they were bundled with the computer. According to PC Magazine, the price for the IBM PC XT (model 5160) in 1983 was $7,545 -- this included the computer (with a 10MB HDD and dual 5.25" FDDs), CGA monitor, and keyboard. This would be approximately $20,153 in 2021 dollars.

https://www.pcmag.com/news/the-golden-age-of-ibm-pcs
https://www.inflationtool.com/us-dollar ... mount=7545

Not knowing what fraction of the cost could be attributed to the keyboard, I would still say that today's Model F prices are a bargain.

[Muirium]

I'm sure they would have also sold it as a separate replacement part. (Costly accidents do happen, and IBM wants your money to make things better!) I expect it was a few hundred dollars, maybe $300 at a guess. The significantly later and cheaper built Apple Extended Keyboard II was $163 according to Wikipedia (though I don't see a source for that figure) while the later and cheaper quality still Apple Adjustable Keyboard was $219 when new according to TidBits, a site so old it's still up and running today, so I trust that one.

Quality keyboards weren't cheap, back in the day. But they weren't a significant chunk of the whole system price, either. I'd be horrified if it was as much as a tenth of that egregious $7.5k figure! Indeed, Wikipedia actually lists the IBM PC's price as "Starting at US$1,565" which is much more believable. You definitely got a Model F in the bargain, even when you bought the low end (what, no floppy drive!?) package.

[Tritian]

I had it in my head from some video that the Model F XT was in the $600's

[Muirium]

I had it in my head from some video that the Model F XT was in the $600's

Text or it never happened.