Dear Model F owners, can we talk? (Long rant)

[gianni]

I own two Ms, and a lot of F keyboards. I didn't measure the difference, but it is there and the F is way lighter. Not everyone is able to tell the difference, which seems incredible to me.

I can't use a model M, it's too heavy when typing 10 000 characters in a couple of hours, it's just unusable and a horrible experience. I hate that keyboard.

[Bjerrk]

I own two Ms, and a lot of F keyboards. I didn't measure the difference, but it is there and the F is way lighter. Not everyone is able to tell the difference, which seems incredible to me.

Agreed, the difference is substantial!

I can't use a model M, it's too heavy when typing 10 000 characters in a couple of hours, it's just unusable and a horrible experience. I hate that keyboard.

I'm sure some of us wouldn't mind helping you get rid of it, myself included

[gianni]

I own two Ms, and a lot of F keyboards. I didn't measure the difference, but it is there and the F is way lighter. Not everyone is able to tell the difference, which seems incredible to me.

Agreed, the difference is substantial!

I can't use a model M, it's too heavy when typing 10 000 characters in a couple of hours, it's just unusable and a horrible experience. I hate that keyboard.

I'm sure some of us wouldn't mind helping you get rid of it, myself included

Thanks but it's an ISO layout, and I havent lost (yet) the hope to convert it to F. I don't remember if the project is dead or not

[Zobeid Zuma]

Typing this now on a vintage IBM XT keyboard, and just waiting for my F77 to show up. . . I've never had a vintage Model M, but I do have a Unicomp. To me the Model F looks, feels, sounds much better than the Unicomp. However. . .

I find that what's impressive in testing is not necessarily what's best to actually do a lot of typing on. For all the Model F's character and charisma, it's kind of harsh and tiresome when bashing out large volumes of text.

Maybe a comparison with food is in order. The pot of chili that wins the cookoff tends to be super-hot and spicy, because that's what impresses the judges when they come around and each of them taste about half a spoonful of it. I guarantee you would not enjoy sitting down at supper time and eating a whole bowl of that stuff. To me, that's the Model F.

Personally, I feel a lot more comfortable bashing out pages of text on a modern mechanical keyboard with Kailh BOX Burnt Orange switches, or maybe Pale Blues if I'm in the mood for click. There's a lot less drama but more smooth flow.

[thefarside]

I’ve never used an XT but I enjoy typing on my Model F AT, but can’t handle long sessions due to the heavy spacebar. What did you find tiresome about it? The weight of the switches or the layout or perhaps both? I think you might find the F77 to be the best compromise. The switches on mine are light and smooth and I prefer its feel over all of my other buckling spring keyboards.

[hellothere]

I just find it amusing that this has become an IBM Model M vs Model F vs Unicomp thread

[Bjerrk]

I just find it amusing that this has become an IBM Model M vs Model F vs Unicomp thread

Not too surprising given the original post?

[jmaynard]

I own two Ms, and a lot of F keyboards. I didn't measure the difference, but it is there and the F is way lighter. Not everyone is able to tell the difference, which seems incredible to me.

Agreed, the difference is substantial!

I've got a few M122s and a couple of other Ms. My 3178 blue switch F came in today. I got a controller installed in it, and wow, what a difference!

My complaint about buckling spring keyboards has always been that they make me work too hard to type. The 3178 was a real revelation. I spent a while tweaking the default layout in the xwhatsit QMK repository to what I think is appropriate, and I really think it will be a joy to use.

Now I'm looking forward even more to my new F77... and wishing that he'd do an F122 or the tenkeyless version of it. Or that I could simply find an F122.

[vincent]

And there’s no snooty elitism; in fact, that kind of behavior is discouraged.

Even when someone does not share the dogma of the superiority of mechanical watches and does not live inside the mechanical watch filter bubble at all?

I mean, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have been judged by anyone for not being able to afford a gold watch, or not needing one with an automatic/self-winding drive etc. or for preferring vintage ones over modern ones and stuff like that. As long as I would stay within the canon of mechanical=superior I'm sure everyone would have been respectful. But when actually defending quartz driven watches and their countless advantages, all I ever got was snooty elitism, with people acting like quartz means "cheap Chinese knockoff".

Sidenote: Generally my experience with real-name communities is that they can get just as toxic as the worst anonymous ones, or even moreso, because egos are at stake. IMHO it's a common misconception that a lack of anonymity is what keeps a community civil. It's mutual respect that keeps a community civil. And that can be cultivated on an anonymous platform just as naturally as on a non-anonymous one. Or not.

Spoiler:

Thinking back, I can now remember exactly who the OP is talking about. They do exist. I’m already annoyed again just remembering that they exist. They particularly exist in Discord servers of subreddits like r/buildapc, r/headphones, and r/watches (although, I’ll have to give credit to r/watches, the actual subreddit, for actually having great culture that discourages the type of behavior we’re talking about here).

They constantly spew the same hyperbolic bullshit that OP talked about. In the r/buildapc server, people were calling me stupid for “having more money than sense” in buying an Intel i9-9900K which, at the time, was actually the most performant CPU for gaming at the time. They couldn’t fathom someone spending a large premium for only a small increase in performance. I knew what I was getting into and bought it anyway; fuck me, right? They literally said, “Nobody should be buying Intel CPUs. Anybody doing that is stupid.” That came from a mod of that server!

In the r/watches server, some punk straight up said my watch is too big on me. First of all, that’s just rude. Why did he feel the need to even say that? Second, I already knew this person had a history of complaining about watch sizes of today vs. those of vintage ones.

And in none of these instances did anybody stand up for me and be like, “hey, that’s not nice.”

I left those servers because I don’t need that additional negativity in my life.

I've never joined either a watch/clock or pen forum, even though I do like both, because I kinda feel like I have to show some kind of pass to get me through the door. I have a lovely pocket watch from my grandfather-in-law that isn't worth much, other than sentimentally, but I've loved pocket watches for years. I lose my pens more often than not, so I'd want to talk about something that doesn't cost $1K.

Responding to both of the above. I’ve found that, in general, most communities are shit. Sometimes, though, you might stumble on one that isn’t. I’m lucky to have found two of those for watches. Might be hard to believe, but there really isn’t any snooty elitism in those two communities I’m a part of.

Quartz watches? “They keep better time and are more useful.” Phones? “It’s like having an atomic clock in your pocket.”

Grand Seiko is known for making kickass quartz watches with their well-known 9F high accuracy quartz movement. Case, dial, hand, and movement finishing are held to the same high standard. A couple of years ago, Citizen made the world’s most accurate quartz watch that is accurate to +/- 1 seconds per year. That was big news in the watch industry when it was announced. G-shocks are adored, and Garmin GPS watches are praised for their practicality in certain athletic training applications. And we all know dive watches aren’t actually used for diving since divers all use diving computers now.

We fawn over each other’s cereal box or Mickey Mouse watches because they’re interesting. And there’s a universal understanding that considering watches mostly by their monetary value is in incredibly poor taste. Everyone’s in a different financial situation and we laugh at the idea of intentionally wearing inferior timekeeping devices when superior options exist (e.g., radio controlled or BT quartz watches, smartphones). We don’t take ourselves too seriously and remember that these are just things in the end.

I hope I didn’t just come off as aggressive, but maybe that’s just out of my frustration that I can’t find communities like that for my other hobbies. Why do most communities have to be so toxic? Why haven’t people learned basic manners? Why don’t I have a lawn yet so I can yell at people to get off it?

[Yasu0]

Nah that didn't come off as negative.

[jmaynard]

Responding to both of the above. I’ve found that, in general, most communities are shit. Sometimes, though, you might stumble on one that isn’t. I’m lucky to have found two of those for watches. Might be hard to believe, but there really isn’t any snooty elitism in those two communities I’m a part of.

Good communities do exist. I'm a member of one for the R107 chassis Mercedes-Benz roadsters (the 1971-1989 SL-class). Lots of goodnatured back and forth, but no snootiness at all. If you like the 107, you're welcome. They gave me the know-how to buy two of them, and to do a couple of really major repairs on them - and even loan out tools and send unneeded parts to others who need them. A really good bunch.

It's all about people getting along with each other and helping out where they can. The rest is detail.

[Wazrach]

My 1989 6100 System Model M feels quite light for some reason. I'm enjoying using it more than my custom Bigfoot right now, and that thing feels amazing. I wonder how much better it would feel wtih a Unicomp "blanket" and a screw mod.

[Bjerrk]

My 1989 6100 System Model M feels quite light for some reason. I'm enjoying using it more than my custom Bigfoot right now, and that thing feels amazing. I wonder how much better it would feel wtih a Unicomp "blanket" and a screw mod.

Sounds great! I wonder why it would be lighter than other Model Ms of that general era.
As for the screw mod, it really improved my 1987 Model M (the only one I've screw modded so far). So much, in fact, that I've begun considering screw modding Ms with no missing rivets to speak of.

[Zobeid Zuma]

Now I'm looking forward even more to my new F77... and wishing that he'd do an F122 or the tenkeyless version of it. Or that I could simply find an F122.

I'm getting excited about the F77 again, since I see they are trickling out of the shop (complete with printed keycaps!) and a few reviews appearing. It may still be months before I get mine, but I've been waiting years.

Assuming that Round 2 ever materializes, as originally planned, my number one hope would be for a F77 variant with the keypad on the left side instead of the right. F77-L, I guess? To me that would be pretty close to an ideal layout.

[vometia]

...stuff...

That name seems very familiar. Hercules mailing list? I'm still waiting for that VM hobbyists' licence to materialise. D:

Responding to both of the above. I’ve found that, in general, most communities are shit. Sometimes, though, you might stumble on one that isn’t. I’m lucky to have found two of those for watches. Might be hard to believe, but there really isn’t any snooty elitism in those two communities I’m a part of.

I suppose I'm fortunate in that I haven't gone looking for watch communities; I suspect they'd be less than impressed with my beloved Roamer Sweetheart. Talking of which, it's enormously overdue for servicing, considering it's never had one. Yikes.

[jmaynard]

...stuff...

That name seems very familiar. Hercules mailing list? I'm still waiting for that VM hobbyists' licence to materialise. D:

Guilty as charged. Indeed, the project that got me into this (which I just need to do final assembly on) is something I'm calling a 360/64, an M122 with a Raspberry Pi in it running Hercules, with the key mapping while x3270 is active set up to mimic the actual 3270 as closely as possible. Kinda like the mainframe version of a C64.

And yeah, I really wish IBM would get with the hobbyist licensing program, even today.

[del20nd]

Resurrecting this thread because the exact same rant on reddit is among the top google results when you type in "IBM Model F vs Beamspring." I want to respond to that but don't have a reddit account anymore.

The link to that thread is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... eamspring/

For reference, I have a combined 14-ish years experience typing on the F and M. About 6 years on an F122 and 8 on a beige logo M. The F122 is my current daily.

My opinion echoes others: the M is a fantastic keyboard, but the F is noticeably better. The technical differences between the switches are minor on paper, but they become amplified when you adapt a light typing style, and compound further if you have to type allot.

The light typing style is the key here: if you're a heavy typist, there's almost no difference between an F and M. When you type lightly, the small details in the design start to creep up. Both keyboards allow for light typing due to how buckling springs work in general, but the lighter keystroke that the F's capacitive switch uses, combined with the ever-so-slightly more accurate "snappier" feeling actuation, add up to a more accurate feeling, less fatiguing board overall.

These are differences you feel a little bit moment-to moment, but allot more after extended typing sessions. If you're typing a one page essay, this may not be noticeable at all. If you're typing 20 pages of documentation or coding all day, 5 days a week, the M becomes noticeably more fatiguing and less accurate than the F. Not a bad board, I must emphasize, just noticeably not as good as the original!

The M's greatest merit is ultimately in its value proposition: it's most of the board that a Model F is, at roughly 25% of the price. Arguably the best "bang for buck" on the market today. It's way down the ladder on the law of diminishing returns when compared to a Model F, and allows people who would never dream of spending $420 for a computer keyboard to have a fantastic typing experience. It's seriously impressive how much of the key feel they were able to preserve given how much they streamlined the production.

The F is closer to perfection. It's not a great value like the M, and the differences between the two boards are ultimately not mind blowing, but sometimes it's worth reaching for that next level up in design perfection.

Especially if you type as much as I do. On that note, sorry for yet another long post

[genericusername57]

I own two Ms, and a lot of F keyboards. I didn't measure the difference, but it is there and the F is way lighter. Not everyone is able to tell the difference, which seems incredible to me.

I can't use a model M, it's too heavy when typing 10 000 characters in a couple of hours, it's just unusable and a horrible experience. I hate that keyboard.

I've got a Model M and a F77 Reproduction and the difference is very noticeable for me. I agree with not being able to type on a Model M for an entire day in a row, it gets fatiguing. As for the general keyfeel difference I think the Model M is slightly mushier feeling, but the tactile event is basically the same to my fingers.

If I had to tell someone to either get a Model M for pretty cheap or pay a lot more for a Model F (either a genuine one with a wonky layout or a reproduction for ~$400) I wouldn't be able to tell them to go for the F with a straight face. If they love the M but have the above complaints, I'd tell them the Model F would solve those issues but if you enjoy the Model M then it's not gonna be a night or day difference to switch to the F. Might even be worse if you go for a wonky layout original one.

[hellothere]

I've mentioned that I've had several Model F XTs and Model Ms, from IBM, Lexmark, and Unicomp. This includes new, old stock. I said I prefer the Model M because the Fs felt like they were going to throw a rod or something every time I typed on it. I also strongly hated the extra heavy-duty weighting on the space bar. I finally got in a Model F XT that felt great and I can now understand why a lot of folks do prefer the Fs.

I'd like to eventually get an F AT at some point. However, I'm not exactly looking for one.

[del20nd]

I've mentioned that I've had several Model F XTs and Model Ms, from IBM, Lexmark, and Unicomp. This includes new, old stock. I said I prefer the Model M because the Fs felt like they were going to throw a rod or something every time I typed on it. I also strongly hated the extra heavy-duty weighting on the space bar. I finally got in a Model F XT that felt great and I can now understand why a lot of folks do prefer the Fs.

I'd like to eventually get an F AT at some point. However, I'm not exactly looking for one.

Throw a rod?? It's a keyboard sir, not a combustion engine

I agree with you on the space bar. I've only experienced that issue once at a classic gaming expo, but it was enough to know that I'd have to modify it immediately. Luckily I was able to grab an F122 just before prices got insane, and they don't have the space bar issue.

[Go-Kart]

My first working M's switch weight was so heavy, I thought, I get why people rave about Fs. I couldn't daily drive it, not for lack of trying. I got a restored F and it was (/still is) great. Plus, as a HHKB user, I appreciate Ctrl being in the correct place. However, I prefer the look of the M, so when I finally got round to restoring my first non-working M, I was obsessed with "cushion modding" it to lighten the switch weight. It worked, I now prefer my M to my F in terms of pure typing experience. However, I won an auction for a reasonably tidy blue badge M; it hasn't has ANY work done to it, but the switch weight it like that of my cushion-modded M!

This has led to conclude that there's a lot of variance in M switch weighting, likely due to slider fork depth, which informs typing experience. The lighter, similar to F switch weight is what I like. If a buckling spring gives me that, I'm happy. Fs tend to be far uglier in my opinion, but I do prefer XT layouts. I just need a HHKB layout Kishy or something, repro or OG, I am largely indifferent. Anyone who has one, hit me up. I missed one on eBay last week; I just bought a house and so I was reticent to act...

[Muirium]

Well, you’ve seen and felt my OG Kishy in HHKB layout. How was it?

Ms do indeed vary a lot in feel. The best one I ever tried was an early silver label Cindy sold to Andrewjoy which I proxied. Pretty sharp! Still no F, in my opinion, but much more satisfying than any other M that’s crossed my hands. The click was more pronounced.

Fs vary too. My AT is nowhere near as sharp as my Kish. The AT feels much more ‘floaty’ for want of a sensible word. The click feels further down the travel and after a good bit more resistance. The plastic shell also damps it in a way the Kish’s solid zinc definitely does not! The XTs I’ve had were quite consistent, however, and pretty good.

[Go-Kart]

Your Kish? I think I was too dazzled by it's beauty and aura! Not to mention the beamer! Sadly, I cannot recall my impressions of the key feel. This may have been because I thought, with the few moments my fingers graced it's keys, that it felt similar enough to my XT to pay little attention to my experience of the key feel past that.

[Muirium]

Also its wobbly spacebar. It really was made for those who space with their right thumb, exclusively, like me. Otherwise I'd pluck up the courage, and the epoxy putty, to fix it!

[LambdaCore]

I feel like the biggest difference people report when they note some of the highest status keyboards is the light typing feel. I've been trying blue alps for the first time and the feel and sound are an improvement from white alps, but that's not really the main reason blue alps live up to the hype, not for me. It's the same way with a Model M to a Model F, capacitive buckling springs aren't just smooth, but *light* and a light, tactile keypress I find helps me type much quicker than I would on any other keyboard.

I think the entire topic is a bit off base, as I've never seen anyone accuse the Model M of being bad, or anything of that sort! Just people excited about their Model Fs and elaborating on why they feel they're an improvement upon the M. Though I suppose one thing I could see giving someone that opinion is the fact that these switches had gradually gotten cheaper, and the tooling slowly wore out over the years. If you went from a Unicomp Model M to a Model F XT, the difference is going to be staggering! Meanwhile, if you're going from a square badge, bolt modded M to a Model F, that difference won't be quite as pronounced. Even so, I haven't seen anyone denounce Model Ms as some sort of commoner trash, and in fact I will reiterate for myself that I think the Model M is possibly the best entry keyboard into this hobby! It's cheap, easy to come by and very easy to fix and even modify in a few ways such as the popular floss mod - I'm sure you could even put lighter springs in there if you really wanted. On that same note, I just think the Model F, at least the switches, are superior switches that a lot of people rightfully get excited over. My Model F XT is honestly one of my favorite keyboards bar none, I love the layout, I love the switches, I could gush all day! But I still love the Model M to bits.

Something I wanna add though, and it only now occurred to me as I started fixing dinner on my break, but it doesn’t take someone obnoxiously gloating to sort of… feel bad about it, I suppose. In a hobby like this, it feels like there’s always something above it, like mentioned in OP’s original post. Okay now I’ve got a Model F, but look at these guys praising the Beamspring. I felt this hard when I first got started with my Unicomp, and then alps, and then even Topre. It’s not a rational feeling, it’s someone who’s just happy about what they have, but I totally get looking at all these people talking about how much better and superior their model F is compared to Model M, and a reader almost feeling like everyone is calling their favorite keyboard utter crap

[Muirium]

It’s not a rational feeling, it’s someone who’s just happy about what they have, but I totally get looking at all these people talking about how much better and superior their model F is compared to Model M, and a reader almost feeling like everyone is calling their favorite keyboard utter crap

Ah, yucking people’s yums, as they say.

The thing about the Model M specifically is its monumental reputation. Set aside how it got it, and accepting the fact it’s there, the result is people with some existing mech experience often dismissing buckling spring entirely when they do encounter it and determine for themselves that the M stands for Meh. Quite fair of them really: your fingers do not lie. But they’re judging the debased, cost-cut, and worn tooled final resting state of the whole buckling spring odyssey. What Unicomp ships today has nothing on what IBM did in the early 1980s. Same name though, so it must be so.

Anyway, I quite agree a Unicomp mini Model M is an absolute gem of a starter for this hobby. It’s remarkably better than non-mechs, and will school you on all the differences at top speed. It’s also not an end game trap to kill your interest on the first go. Indeed, you’re well positioned to earn your addiction.

[apastuszak]

I've noticed that there is some kind of age gap when it comes to keyboard enthusiasts. I once posted a picture of my dining room table on Reddit with a Matias Tactile Pro, a Model M, and 2 Apple AEK IIs on it, and got a lot of crap from people because all these keyboards were "full size boards." It seems the younger crowd all feel that the TKL is as big as anyone should go. And even the TLK is too big for a lot of younger keyboard enthusiasts.

As I've said before, I don't use the numpad that often, but when I enter numbers, I really miss it when it's not there. But that's probably also because I grew up with a numpad and muscle memory expects it to be there. I'm sure if I grew up without a numpad, I'd look at things differently.

I've never used a Model F, and at the prices these boards go for, I don't think I ever will. I'm pretty happy with the Model M. Part of me is really tempted to get one of those new Model Fs with a Model M layout. But I just can't justify the $420 price tag for one.

What I really want to find is a beige/pebble M122 with lock lights.

[LambdaCore]

I've noticed that there is some kind of age gap when it comes to keyboard enthusiasts. I once posted a picture of my dining room table on Reddit with a Matias Tactile Pro, a Model M, and 2 Apple AEK IIs on it, and got a lot of crap from people because all these keyboards were "full size boards." It seems the younger crowd all feel that the TKL is as big as anyone should go. And even the TLK is too big for a lot of younger keyboard enthusiasts.

I'm definitely on the younger end myself, though I couldn't imagine using anything smaller than a TKL, and I'd ideally RATHER have a full size! That said, it probably doesn't help I'm a programmer, was raised by a father who was also indeed a programmer, had computers around me since about the age of three and was obsessed with them by age 4

[Muirium]

Glad to hear I was always ahead of the curve.

Hi folks, first time poster.

…

Tenkeyless definitely appeals to me. I love having the mouse closer to my right hand, whether writing or even gaming. Never had much use for bopping digits.

…

(Is there such a thing as a tenkeyless buckling spring? I'm keen on a keyboard with audio feedback as it helps me keep my flow, but maybe even I have my limits. It's been decades since I played with one of those.)

[LambdaCore]

Glad to hear I was always ahead of the curve.

Hi folks, first time poster.

…

Tenkeyless definitely appeals to me. I love having the mouse closer to my right hand, whether writing or even gaming. Never had much use for bopping digits.

…

(Is there such a thing as a tenkeyless buckling spring? I'm keen on a keyboard with audio feedback as it helps me keep my flow, but maybe even I have my limits. It's been decades since I played with one of those.)

Way ahead! Though for gaming, the numpad is useful for more than just punching in digits if that’s a motive for a TKL. That said, I think the TKL is one of the most usable of the smaller layouts people have gotten obsessed with, and I understand its use. I can’t get with 60%, best I’ve used is the HHKB, which was great for portable use when typing, but I hate relying on layers so much