Alps Lubricant FOUND!

[Bjerrk]

The flash point of TB2518P being so low is pretty interesting. I'd imagine that's because the spec provided is for a pre-mixed solvent blend especially since it's name says specifically "[...] petroleum solvents". I'd be more interested in the properties after it has been applied and allowed to cure. Some Cosmolene-like high film strength coating that contains lithium soaps applied via a spray would be my guess.

Yeah the flash point being that low is shocking. We have peaks of up to 43C (under a shade!) days here in Greece. This means that if you put the keyboard in the sunlight on those days, it will surpass 50c. Wouldn't that be dangerous and a fire risk? It must be a mistake.

Flashpoint I imagine needs certain conditions, like concentration of the gases (solvent vapor, and O2). Definietly not stochiometric, but I imagine close to that. Chyros could say more about this, definietly.

I think it sounds reasonable enough. As a comparison, consider the Finish Line Krytech Wax Lube that I've been experimenting with recently - it contains cycloheptane as a solvent, which has a flash point of only a few degrees Celsius. However, this solvent quickly evaporates, leaving a non-volatile residue which doesn't present a fire hazard.

[inozenz]

not sure if this might also be interesting but adinol has some interesting oils and greases containing mineral oil and lithium soap in various thickness

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... yLFYKLbVq2

[Bjerrk]

I had an order for a sample kit of 17 different special lubes and they are finally here.

Wish me luck! :

Looking forward to hearing the results on this one!
Godspeed!

[NeK]

not sure if this might also be interesting but adinol has some interesting oils and greases containing mineral oil and lithium soap in various thickness

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... yLFYKLbVq2

Wow, very interesting indeed! They have so many products that could be nice candidates. I wonder how I missed this brand! Thanks great find.

I am now wondering how we can order some samples from them. Do.you have any info about that? Any contact?

[inozenz]

not sure if this might also be interesting but adinol has some interesting oils and greases containing mineral oil and lithium soap in various thickness

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... yLFYKLbVq2

Wow, very interesting indeed! They have so many products that could be nice candidates. I wonder how I missed this brand! Thanks great find.

I am now wondering how we can order some samples from them. Do.you have any info about that? Any contact?

I could email them. Looks like a local brand.

[thousandperfume]

Looking forward to both the Adinol and NeK's results.

[NeK]

not sure if this might also be interesting but adinol has some interesting oils and greases containing mineral oil and lithium soap in various thickness

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... yLFYKLbVq2

Wow, very interesting indeed! They have so many products that could be nice candidates. I wonder how I missed this brand! Thanks great find.

I am now wondering how we can order some samples from them. Do.you have any info about that? Any contact?

I could email them. Looks like a local brand.

Can you do that please? Ask them for samples, small ones like 3-6g each is more than enough. The Nye samples I got, are 6g and I think are enough that I can lube all my boards with each one of them, many times over.

[NeK]

The flash point of TB2518P being so low is pretty interesting. I'd imagine that's because the spec provided is for a pre-mixed solvent blend especially since it's name says specifically "[...] petroleum solvents". I'd be more interested in the properties after it has been applied and allowed to cure. Some Cosmolene-like high film strength coating that contains lithium soaps applied via a spray would be my guess.

Yeah the flash point being that low is shocking. We have peaks of up to 43C (under a shade!) days here in Greece. This means that if you put the keyboard in the sunlight on those days, it will surpass 50c. Wouldn't that be dangerous and a fire risk? It must be a mistake.

Flashpoint I imagine needs certain conditions, like concentration of the gases (solvent vapor, and O2). Definietly not stochiometric, but I imagine close to that. Chyros could say more about this, definietly.

I was reading this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point and it became pretty obvious to me that the flashpoint of 50C probably is from the Petroleum Solvents that OG had (when being a pre-mix obviously, as jsheradin pointed out). The solvent is most likely used only for the application, which it would soon evaporate leaving the base lube as a film coating. So, yeah that's why it's flashpoint is so low, but when applied and cured, the film coating probably has a much higher flashpoint after that.

It's a great clue though, about what kind of application was used. I guess it was sprayed on, but I have almost zero knoweledge on this. Yeah, Chyros may know more, maybe we should ping him?

[Bjerrk]

I was reading this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point and it became pretty obvious to me that the flashpoint of 50C probably is from the Petroleum Solvents that OG had (when being a pre-mix obviously). The solvent is most likely used for the application, which it would evaporate leaving the base lube as a film coating. So, yeah that's why it's flashpoint is so low, but when applied and cured, the film coating probably has a much, much higher flashpoint after that.

I believe someone wrote that a few posts back

[NeK]

Yeah it was jsheradin which I quote (is the first quoted msg), I was just verifying all this with what I read.

Oh and YOU ofcourse, lol sorry.

[Bjerrk]

I should add that my own experiments using a wax lube with a volatile solvent have been quite positive so far. I just haven't gotten around to evaluating it in any systematic way ...

Would also be great if the formulation was of this type, from an ease of use perspective.

[NeK]

I should add that my own experiments using a wax lube with a volatile solvent have been quite positive so far. I just haven't gotten around to evaluating it in any systematic way ...

Would also be great if the formulation was of this type, from an ease of use perspective.

That's great. You referring to Kytech Wax right? Is there a technical data sheet (TDS) of it? It would be helpful to have its specs.

[Lalaland124]

It's a great clue though, about what kind of application was used. I guess it was sprayed on, but I have almost zero knoweledge on this. Yeah, Chyros may know more, maybe we should ping him?

I think so too - at least I don't know of any other chemist on DT other than him

[Lalaland124]

not sure if this might also be interesting but adinol has some interesting oils and greases containing mineral oil and lithium soap in various thickness

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... yLFYKLbVq2

Wow, very interesting indeed! They have so many products that could be nice candidates. I wonder how I missed this brand! Thanks great find.

I am now wondering how we can order some samples from them. Do.you have any info about that? Any contact?

I could email them. Looks like a local brand.

I will also contact some oil/lubricant companies here in Austria and send them the characteristics of the og one. Lets see if they have sth similar.

[NeK]

Now that's what I like! People engaging and helping. That's the spirit. Let's crack this baby!

[Lalaland124]

Now that's what I like! People engaging and helping. That's the spirit. Let's crack this baby!

[Bjerrk]

That's great. You referring to Kytech Wax right? Is there a technical data sheet (TDS) of it? It would be helpful to have its specs.

Yes, exactly. I have to say up front, though, I have my reservations regarding its longevity. Not that I've tested long enough to note any difference.

Their documentation is quite bad as well - the closest I've come is this SDS sheet which describes it as containing mostly heptanes (cyclic as well as linear) by weight, and a small amount of triphenyl phosphate which is just a flame retardant. The physical properties are not well-described either, in the MSDS sheet.
From marketing we also know that it is paraffin based(*) and contains "DuPont Krytox" (which I guess simply means PTFE-thickened PFPE oil) and molybdenum.

So, due to the poor documentation alone, I doubt that this compound will leave us much the wiser - I just wanted to add that my experiences with a lube with volatile solvent which leave a hard waxy residue were positive so far

(*) No typical molecular weights specified, just paraffin.

[NeK]

I could email them. Looks like a local brand.

that's great

[NeK]

Quick update:

I found some time and tried one of the lubes the Rheolube 368 which I had the most hopes for and it was a failure. Here's a quck video and info:

F8 is OG lube, F6 is Rheolube 368

TDS:

Rheolube-368.png (83.21 KiB) Viewed 24123 times

It didn't eliminate the stick-slip (very light binding) when pressing on corners and it didn't smooth out the sliding, I could feel all imperfections of the surfaces. My guess why this didn't work is that it is not viscous enough (viscosity).

Next I'll try the 368AXF (a bit more viscous version with additives), and then on to the Nyogel 774 series which I hope they will work well.

[Lalaland124]

Got some news, but I'm not quite sure if they are useful.

I contacted around a dozen different lube and oil companies with all the information we had on the original lubricant. Among those companies was OKS, which some of you might remember from this thread a while ago. And this is what they had to say:

...dabei handelt es sich um ein normales Mehrzweckfett wie z.B. unser OKS 402. Allerdings ist das Fett in einem Lösemittel gelöst. Das ist wahrscheinlich ein Benzin mit einem Flammpunkt von ca. 40 – 50 °C, der Anteil dürfte etwas 66 % betragen. (1/3 Fett + 2/3 Lösemittel). Eine direkte Alternative dazu haben wir leider nicht in unserem Programm.

after sending them some further information they replied with this:

das sind eine ganze Menge hilfreicher Information über das Fett:

Grundöl: Mineralöl oder PAO
Grundölviskosität: 660 mm²/s bei 25°C -> ca. 250 – 300 mm²/s bei 40°C (je nach Öltyp, 40°C ist die Messtemperatur nach DIN 51 562-1)
Verdicker: Lithium- Seife
Konsistenz: NLGI 1

Dieses Fett ist dann in einem Lösemittel gelöst damit es auch in kleine Spalten eindringt. Nach dem Abdampfen des Lösemittel (wahrscheinlich so nach 1 Stunde) bleibt dann das Fett an der Schmierstelle überig.

OKS 402 hat bei 40°C eine Grundölviskosität von 100 mm²/s, das Grundöl ist also dünner. Zudem ist die Konsistenz mit NLGI 2 fester eingestellt. Trotz der Unterschiede sehe ich bei Ihrer Anwendung erst einmal kein Problem.

Now, I'll try to translate and sum this up in the best way possible. As far as Im concerned, we only experimented with OKS 477 which turned out to be promising but not quite as good as the original

It does come close - some people, I guess, would say very close - to the original lube, but still, not quite in my opinion... And this is the one that I named Magic NeKtar in the teaser video.viewtopic.php?t=23878&start=210

The spokesperson from OKS basically told me now that the OKS 402 type of lubricant would be the one that comes closest to TB2581P. He also confirmed what Nek and jsheradin explained a few hours ago regarding the flashpoint of the lube.
I don't know if this is helpful, but I figured that I should share it with you anyways. I'm still waiting for replies from the other companies so maybe I'll have more to say in a few hours or so!

[Lalaland124]

Also found an old Reddit Post talking about ThreeBond where they list the old patent as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... e_mystery/

[inozenz]

oks 402 can be bought for 12€ 400ml


quick translation

1. ...this is a normal multi-purpose grease such as our OKS 402. However, the grease is dissolved in a solvent. This is probably a gasoline with a flash point of about 40 - 50 °C, the proportion should be something like 66 %. (1/3 grease + 2/3 solvent). Unfortunately, we do not have a direct alternative in our program.

2. that's a whole lot of helpful information about the grease:

Base oil: mineral oil or PAO
Base oil viscosity: 660 mm²/s at 25°C -> approx. 250 - 300 mm²/s at 40°C (depending on oil type, 40°C is the measuring temperature according to DIN 51 562-1)
Thickener: Lithium soap
Consistency: NLGI 1

This grease is then dissolved in a solvent so that it can penetrate even into small crevices. After evaporation of the solvent (probably after 1 hour) the grease remains at the lubrication point.

OKS 402 has a base oil viscosity of 100 mm²/s at 40°C, so the base oil is thinner. In addition, the consistency is more solid with NLGI 2. Despite the differences, I do not see any problem in your application for the time being.

[Lalaland124]

oks 402 can be bought for 12€ 400ml


quick translation

1. ...this is a normal multi-purpose grease such as our OKS 402. However, the grease is dissolved in a solvent. This is probably a gasoline with a flash point of about 40 - 50 °C, the proportion should be something like 66 %. (1/3 grease + 2/3 solvent). Unfortunately, we do not have a direct alternative in our program.

2. that's a whole lot of helpful information about the grease:

Base oil: mineral oil or PAO
Base oil viscosity: 660 mm²/s at 25°C -> approx. 250 - 300 mm²/s at 40°C (depending on oil type, 40°C is the measuring temperature according to DIN 51 562-1)
Thickener: Lithium soap
Consistency: NLGI 1

This grease is then dissolved in a solvent so that it can penetrate even into small crevices. After evaporation of the solvent (probably after 1 hour) the grease remains at the lubrication point.

OKS 402 has a base oil viscosity of 100 mm²/s at 40°C, so the base oil is thinner. In addition, the consistency is more solid with NLGI 2. Despite the differences, I do not see any problem in your application for the time being.

Thank you, I'm at work so I didn't have too much time for the translation Here is the data sheet for 402:

Spoiler:

Bildschirmfoto 2022-01-14 um 14.03.53.png (319.73 KiB) Viewed 24080 times

[NeK]

(I'm at work and on my phone so i cant write fluently. )

Nice nice. The part about the solvent and how it evaporates is great info!

But OKS 402 is way to thin in viscosity. The OG lube is 800mm2/s at 25C (japan measurements) not 660. How did 660 came up?

Also the Rheolube 368 that I tried is more viscous. About 200mm2/s at 40C. So 100mm2/s @ 40C of OKS402 seems way, way too thin. If the R368 didn't work, it will be even worse with oks402. (Assuming that viscosity plays a major role, which may not)

[NeK]

Also found an old Reddit Post talking about ThreeBond where they list the old patent as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... e_mystery/

Just to save you wasting time on thus, we have been through that (in this thread way back). The patent isn't relevant.

[Lalaland124]

(I'm at work and on my phone so i cant write fluently. )

Nice nice. The part about the solvent and how it evaporates is great info!

But OKS 402 is way to thin in viscosity. The OG lube is 800mm2/s at 25C (japan measurements) not 660. How did 660 came up?

Also the Rheolube 368 that I tried is more viscous. About 200mm2/s at 40C. So 100mm2/s @ 40C of OKS402 seems way, way too thin. If the R368 didn't work, it will be even worse with oks402. (Assuming that viscosity plays a major role, which may not)

Yeah, I thought the same about the viscosity when I received the mail. Might be interesting to try it out anyways.
I sent him the information on the ThreeBond lube thats where the number 600 comes from.

Also found an old Reddit Post talking about ThreeBond where they list the old patent as well.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyb ... e_mystery/

Just to save you wasting time on thus, we have been through that (in this thread way back). The patent isn't relevant.

Yeah I've seen that post now too. Are we still looking for a more detailed description of the og lube or do we have all characteristics we need?

[NeK]

Yeah I've seen that post now too. Are we still looking for a more detailed description of the og lube or do we have all characteristics we need?

But 600 is not 800 as the OG specs state. What am I missing?

Also, no that is enough specs. I mean, we know the viscosity, the thickener that it had petroleum solvents that would evaporate after the application and that the main oil was a "paraffin" one.

For a lube, It's pretty standard stuff. In my opinion, it would be nice to know some more details, but they are not that important. I bet the "paraffin oil" is probably highly refined long chained hydrocarbons and that's it. That's as far as my knowhow can tell and I am saying it with reservations. Someone with real expertise may please correct me.

[Lalaland124]

Yeah I've seen that post now too. Are we still looking for a more detailed description of the og lube or do we have all characteristics we need?

But 600 is not 800 as the OG specs state. What am I missing?

Also, no that is enough specs. I mean, we know the viscosity, the thickener that it had petroleum solvents that would evaporate after the application and that the main oil was a "paraffin" one.

For a lube, It's pretty standard stuff. In my opinion, it would be nice to know some more details, but they are not that important. I bet the "paraffin oil" is probably highly refined long chained hydrocarbons and that's it. That's as far as my knowhow can tell and I am saying it with reservations. Someone with real expertise may please correct me.

I can send you the mail from OKS if you like!

Also another company told me to try these lubricants:

"Aral" lube
Statermic X400
FG Grease AL 2
and OKS 422 which we already discussed

[headphone_jack]

We already know what the original lube was. Alps themselves told us. Confused if Nek is trying to find a modern analogue (in which case, I have no idea why he dismissed wax boiling) or trying to find the original lube (which again, we already have.) I haven't been keeping track of this thread for a while, so I'm very out of touch.

[Lynx_Carpathica]

Just bc it is not close to the OG lube, don't rule it out just yet. 30+ years has passed with intensive research at lube companies, so I miagine we might find something even better than the og lube, if we look well enough at it. We should ask for specific properties, like stick-slip reduction, and dampening greases in general.