Restoration blunders

[mmm]

I've seen so many great restorations here. But what about the bad ones?

I'm not proud whenever I mess something vintage up. I haven't done it to a catastrophic degree (yet ), but more than I would like to admit.

So far some of the more notable examples are:

• Removing the paint from the inside of a F122 backplate (using vinegar, if memory serves right).
• Trying to reattach a model F backplate using muscle rather than checking that there is not foam stuck in a small gap between the backplate and barrelplate, making the compression nearly impossible, resulting in a slightly scuffed backplate mounting-point
• Removing some of the texture of the paint on late 70ies Kontron keyboard using isopropyl alcohol.

What crimes have you committed? What blunders would you prevent others from making?

[Wazrach]

Honestly, all of my old Model F restorations. But I guess you only learn from failure.

I used to use pliers to bend the latching tabs to remove the backplate, rather than sliding it out of the locking tabs. If I didn't do this, I would twist all of them inwards in the hopes of making the assembly tighter, without thinking about how this would fuck up the alignment.

I just bought an XT for parts which was "restored" by the previous owner. They did this and removed the foam. They did do a really good job of cleaning it though, so that's good. It is very hard, if not impossible to restore the position of the tabs to default. That barrel frame isn't good enough for my liking, despite how much I tried to get it back to normal.

I'm still no Model F restoration master. I'm still trying to get the perfect accessible material for foam replacements. which is probably the most important part of a Model F restoration. I think people overlook how shit and lifeless these feel with rotten foam.

[jsheradin]

Some stuff I've learned:

• Iso melts paint
• You can't remove a slider from a FLS switch just by pulling really hard
• Keycaps indeed fit down the drain
• Plastic continues to whiten for hours after you take it out of the sous-vide-retrobrighter
• Retrobrighting can make legends fade if you go too hot/high concentration
• WY60 PCBs like to shatter if you bend them a bit
• It's possible to use too much lube
• Expanding foam has quite a lot of force behind it
• Never trust component footprints

[fohat]

It is very hard, if not impossible to restore the position of the tabs to default.

Once everything is dependably in place, a good whack or 2 with a hammer will finish the job.

[digital_matthew]

I fried two Model M2 PCBs trying to replace those damn capacitors. I also messed up the chopstick method on a Model M and turned the switch rocker out of place. That was actually fortunate because it prompted me to learn how to do a bolt mod.

[Wazrach]

It is very hard, if not impossible to restore the position of the tabs to default.

Once everything is dependably in place, a good whack or 2 with a hammer will finish the job.

Oh of course, but I was referring to tabs that are bent. The backplate won't mate with the barrel frame as well if the tabs aren't how they originally were. I think this is something you were always talking about that I didn't understand until fairly recently.

[mmm]

• Keycaps indeed fit down the drain

Just imagining this hurts badly.

I fried two Model M2 PCBs trying to replace those damn capacitors. I also messed up the chopstick method on a Model M and turned the switch rocker out of place. That was actually fortunate because it prompted me to learn how to do a bolt mod.

I've had capacitor replacement on my M2 on my todo for a while. How do I avoid doing this?

[Lalaland124]

I've seen so many great restorations here. But what about the bad ones?

I'm not proud whenever I mess something vintage up. I haven't done it to a catastrophic degree (yet ), but more than I would like to admit.

So far some of the more notable examples are:

• Removing the paint from the inside of a F122 backplate (using vinegar, if memory serves right).
• Trying to reattach a model F backplate using muscle rather than checking that there is not foam stuck in a small gap between the backplate and barrelplate, making the compression nearly impossible, resulting in a slightly scuffed backplate mounting-point
• Removing some of the texture of the paint on late 70ies Kontron keyboard using isopropyl alcohol.

What crimes have you committed? What blunders would you prevent others from making?

I was stupidly lucky enough and managed to find a Beamspring for kinda cheap. Broke it’s spacebar while restoring it. Managed to cope with the pain and was lucky enough to get my hands on a second Beamspring. Somehow broke its spacebar as well. Two Beamer, two spacebars… the pain sits very deep.

[digital_matthew]

I fried two Model M2 PCBs trying to replace those damn capacitors. I also messed up the chopstick method on a Model M and turned the switch rocker out of place. That was actually fortunate because it prompted me to learn how to do a bolt mod.

I've had capacitor replacement on my M2 on my todo for a while. How do I avoid doing this?

Realize that as bad as the capacitor replacement is, there is still the matter of putting the damn thing back together. If you manage to do that without knocking the switch rockers out of alignment you then need to re-seat the keycaps. This is a very casual operation on a normal Model M, but it takes great care on an M2. If you feel that "crunch" while replacing the key you know that you've just crushed a spring. If you mess up the chopstick method while replacing the spring you'll need to open the damn thing up again and risk snapping off those stupid plastic prongs that hold it together. You'll repeat this cycle until you finish the keyboard, get fed-up, or have a heart attack. I got through it because I'm an IBM keyboard collector and I wanted to add this to my collection. Also I really like its smaller footprint. Nowadays you can just get a New Model M from Unicomp which is basically the same size. Hope this helps!

[Muirium]

I've got a spare parts Model M2 somewhere, if that helps anyone.

[Sheepless]

I fried two Model M2 PCBs trying to replace those damn capacitors. I also messed up the chopstick method on a Model M and turned the switch rocker out of place. That was actually fortunate because it prompted me to learn how to do a bolt mod.

I've had capacitor replacement on my M2 on my todo for a while. How do I avoid doing this?

Realize that as bad as the capacitor replacement is, there is still the matter of putting the damn thing back together. If you manage to do that without knocking the switch rockers out of alignment you then need to re-seat the keycaps. This is a very casual operation on a normal Model M, but it takes great care on an M2. If you feel that "crunch" while replacing the key you know that you've just crushed a spring. If you mess up the chopstick method while replacing the spring you'll need to open the damn thing up again and risk snapping off those stupid plastic prongs that hold it together. You'll repeat this cycle until you finish the keyboard, get fed-up, or have a heart attack. I got through it because I'm an IBM keyboard collector and I wanted to add this to my collection. Also I really like its smaller footprint. Nowadays you can just get a New Model M from Unicomp which is basically the same size. Hope this helps!

And the plastic clips holding the PCB down are particularly fragile. If you break them (very easy to do, particularly if a previous owner has been in there and weakened them already), the controller won't make good contact with the membrane. But I've had good luck adding a piece of self-adhesive foam rubber inside the top case, to push down on the PCB.

[mmm]

I fried two Model M2 PCBs trying to replace those damn capacitors. I also messed up the chopstick method on a Model M and turned the switch rocker out of place. That was actually fortunate because it prompted me to learn how to do a bolt mod.

I've had capacitor replacement on my M2 on my todo for a while. How do I avoid doing this?

Realize that as bad as the capacitor replacement is, there is still the matter of putting the damn thing back together. If you manage to do that without knocking the switch rockers out of alignment you then need to re-seat the keycaps. This is a very casual operation on a normal Model M, but it takes great care on an M2. If you feel that "crunch" while replacing the key you know that you've just crushed a spring. If you mess up the chopstick method while replacing the spring you'll need to open the damn thing up again and risk snapping off those stupid plastic prongs that hold it together. You'll repeat this cycle until you finish the keyboard, get fed-up, or have a heart attack. I got through it because I'm an IBM keyboard collector and I wanted to add this to my collection. Also I really like its smaller footprint. Nowadays you can just get a New Model M from Unicomp which is basically the same size. Hope this helps!

When I initially got the keyboard it was very dirty. I tested the keyboard briefly and confirmed it was in working order, only to be disappointed later when I found out it would only work for the first 20 seconds or so before deciding to give up.

I somehow managed to disassemble the whole thing and assemble it again without any incidents. I think it's more down to luck than skill. I've also tried disassembling a Canon typewriter where it seems like the plastic tabs would break if you just looked at them wrong.

I've got a spare parts Model M2 somewhere, if that helps anyone.

I could be interested in one or two flippers actually! One of the springs is in an unhappy state. Chopstick incident.

[hellothere]

Some stuff I've learned:

• Plastic continues to whiten for hours after you take it out of the sous-vide-retrobrighter
• Retrobrighting can make legends fade if you go too hot/high concentration
• It's possible to use too much lube
• Never trust component footprints

Highlighting the specific ones in jsheradin's list that have affected me. Some additions:

Number one best recommendation:
Put all the parts from the keyboard you're working on in a plastic bag that's clearly labeled with the keyboard's make, model, and serial number. Store that bag in a specially-designated space. It took me a year to find where I stashed 60ish IBM XT springs & flippers.

* Don't just toss a bad switch. Clean it or spam it 5.56 billion times. It might start working again.
* Retr0bright white caps and "grey" caps separately. Check the grey caps often. Like, every 30 minutes. Wash and dry them completely each time you check.
* If you're retr0brighting an Apple keyboard, rinse it and completely dry it every 30 minutes or less to check the color or the case will be bleached.
* I've been told that paste flux can cause PCB damage if left on for too long. Use isopropyl alcohol to clean your PCB after soldering/desoldering stuff.
* Apple keyboards are possibly the worst keyboards to work on because bent pins.
* Don't use terribly hot water to ultrasonic "shine through" keycaps. Use less than 30C.
* Dell AT101W Alps caps lock keys are stepped.

[Polecat]

My short list:

Be careful not to break locking tabs on cases. Focus and Acer/Multitech are especially prone to broken tabs. I came up with a fix for Focus, which actually made the case better then new, but still...

Don't let the stabilizer clips and other small parts such as springs and click leaves get away when you're taking things apart (or putting back together). If your work area looks like mine and those parts fly off you'll never find them again.

I've posted tips about desoldering before, but in short it's better to use a hotter soldering iron (~800*F) and get in and out quickly than to use a cooler one for longer. Add some fresh solder (rosin core) and try again if it doesn't come clean the first time, or even if it does. Paste flux (zinc chloride) should *never* be used on electronics. That's made for metal work and is corrosive, and if it gets inside switches or stays on the PC board it will definitely cause problems later on.

Practice a new skill on something that doesn't matter first. Painting, soldering/desoldering, lubing, whatever it may be, can cause irreparable damage if done wrong. A good mechanic with a dull screwdriver can do better work (and less damage) than a bad one with a $50K set of tools.

[snacksthecat]

This thread is a good dump of common pitfalls to avoid.

Certainly not a common pitfall but definitely embarrassing was the time I tried to use Topre conical springs instead of foil in a Keytronic board. I’m really glad this didn’t work.

viewtopic.php?p=456920#p456920

[thefarside]

My biggest blunder was trying to drill additional relief into the rivet holes of backplate of my Model M during a screw mod. The additional relief was to allow the screws on the bottom to not push against the case and I was almost there, but went too far on one and drilled a big hole right through the plate, membrane, flipper and barrel plate:

IMG_1842.jpeg (408.26 KiB) Viewed 10624 times

After opening it I realized the damage was beyond repair.

IMG_1844.jpeg (195.77 KiB) Viewed 10624 times

I asked clickykeyboards.com for help and at brought the keyboard to UPS and they said they would pack it, but didn’t and the keyboard case and some keys were damaged during shipping.

IMG_2163.jpeg (162.64 KiB) Viewed 10624 times

My lessons were to use the right screws so relief isn’t needed and to always pack your own keyboards for shipping!

Another mistake was breaking an alps stem while pulling a key from a Data Desk Mac 101-E. I didn’t use the right kind of puller and the stem gave way while pulling it off.

IMG_2030.jpeg (164.56 KiB) Viewed 10624 times

I used a Matias stem and noticed it was smaller and wobbled a lot but still worked. It turns out the alps stems are larger and won’t fit in the Matias housing.

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My lessons there were to aways use the right puller and don’t expect any genuine alps parts to work with Matias.

[hellothere]

Be careful not to break locking tabs on cases...
Don't let the stabilizer clips and other small parts such as springs and click leaves get away when you're taking things apart (or putting back together). If your work area looks like mine and those parts fly off you'll never find them again.
Paste flux (zinc chloride) should *never* be used on electronics.

Again, highlighting stuff.

Regarding locking tabs, I'd recommend that anyone that's doing stuff with tabs buy themselves a bunch of spudgers, particularly the really thick plastic ones. The metal ones are also pretty nice for putting the stabilizer hooks on your mounting plate and snapping wire stabilizers into place.

Not exactly a "blunder," but I bought myself a desoldering gun. It clogged all the time and was basically useless for bent legs. I had also tried a few other hand desolder suckers and they were varying degrees of "OK." Then I bought a Soldapullt for $10. Then I bought two more. These are the ones that are the length of your arm. I can do desoldering easily twice as fast, if not faster, as with the gun. They're also a lot easier to clean.

[Polecat]

Again, highlighting stuff.

Regarding locking tabs, I'd recommend that anyone that's doing stuff with tabs buy themselves a bunch of spudgers, particularly the really thick plastic ones. The metal ones are also pretty nice for putting the stabilizer hooks on your mounting plate and snapping wire stabilizers into place.

Not exactly a "blunder," but I bought myself a desoldering gun. It clogged all the time and was basically useless for bent legs. I had also tried a few other hand desolder suckers and they were varying degrees of "OK." Then I bought a Soldapullt for $10. Then I bought two more. These are the ones that are the length of your arm. I can do desoldering easily twice as fast, if not faster, as with the gun. They're also a lot easier to clean.

I had never heard the term "spudgers" but that's a good tip. I've been doing electronics repair for more than fifty years, so I have a pretty good collection of improvised tools along those lines. Most are literally "dull screwdrivers", either modified for a specific purpose, or just worn down with no sharp edges left. Not something you can buy on purpose; control freaks need not apply.

I use a Soldapullt exclusively, again after fifty years of working on things. Mine's the old blue version, which I think they still sell. I know you can still buy replacement tips and O-rings direct from Edsyn.

[hellothere]

I've been doing electronics repair for more than fifty years, so I have a pretty good collection of improvised tools along those lines. Most are literally "dull screwdrivers", either modified for a specific purpose, or just worn down with no sharp edges left. Not something you can buy on purpose; control freaks need not apply.

New thread topic: using tools for not their intended purpose .

I don't remember when I started using spudgers. Possibly in the 1990s. Powerbook Duo era.

Spudgers come in a variety of shapes and sizes. I've got a range of plastic ones from thinner than a pencil to almost a dry-erase marker. I've also got a bunch that look more or less like a guitar pick.

BTW, if anyone has a better method of attaching stabilizer hooks to the key mounting plate, please share. While my life is easier, using the pointy end of one of my metal spudgers, it's still not easy.

[TNT]

When removing some really stubborn spots of dirt from my Zenith Z-150 I eventually overdid it with the scrubbing. I was using a cocktail stick with a cotton pad drenched in isopropyl alcohol attached to one end. I scrubbed so hard and fast, the heat from the friction melted the texture of the plastic on that spot. It's noticably enough for me to be bothered every time. Still a very small blunder compared to probably my biggest one:

I was retrobrighting the caps of my Data General 6348-A and I made the mistake of throwing the dark grey caps in there along with the "normal" ones. Then I let the waterbath get too hot. All of the caps got overbleached badly (which is a such a shame, those FLS keycaps are thicc and super beautiful). In an attempt to fix it, I tried to sand/polish down one of them partially, but immediately stopped when I realized what I was doing. If only I had chosen a less obvious spot & key. Results are to be seen in the picture (gross indeed). This is what they're supposed to look...

Good luck finding another one of these, those boards are super rare to begin with, and this one was QWERTZ That happened 2 years ago btw, still not over it

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[Muirium]

Doesn’t look too bad when you don’t know they’re not supposed to be hellgrau. Takes a bit of mental limbering up to get there now, but until I saw your linked pic I honestly wondered what the problem was.

Most of my restoration blunders just haven’t happened yet. Too lazy / fearful I’ll do it wrong. Mine is the lesser regret, I suppose, but still.

[fohat]

My biggest blunder was something that was not terribly traumatic for me, but when I first started restoring IBM Model F 122-key terminal boards I decided that since re-assembly was sometimes so difficult that I could devise a better system than the original "sliding force fit" ....

So I put the board together, drilled a number of holes (a dozen or so, as I recall) and then cut off the alignment tabs. And since it worked fine that time, I put together a guide showing how to do it.

The second time I tried it, I realized that the tabs were really a very good and successful method for plate alignment, and that the additional aggravation of putting them back together, with the assistance of multiple clamps, was not really all that difficult.

So I built a new guide that recommended keeping the tabs in place. Unfortunately, people kept finding the old guide even though I deprecated it and added language saying not to cut the tabs, I kept hearing from people who were doing it.

So my mistake continued to plague other people for years down the line.

[TNT]

Doesn’t look too bad when you don’t know they’re not supposed to be hellgrau. Takes a bit of mental limbering up to get there now, but until I saw your linked pic I honestly wondered what the problem was.

Most of my restoration blunders just haven’t happened yet. Too lazy / fearful I’ll do it wrong. Mine is the lesser regret, I suppose, but still.

My phone didn't do that good of a job capturing it. It's pretty apparent when you see it in person. They look "dusty" or "cloudy" somehow. Also the two spots on the right shift + the FN 5 key don't hide it very well

I mean, it could be worse, but again, what are the chances of finding that beauty again to somhow make right what I did

[thefarside]

My biggest blunder was something that was not terribly traumatic for me, but when I first started restoring IBM Model F 122-key terminal boards I decided that since re-assembly was sometimes so difficult that I could devise a better system than the original "sliding force fit" ....

I’m not sure if this is unique to the F107, but when I started my first Model F restoration I found it easier to use a large flat head screwdriver to separate and secure the barrel plate. I put the flat head I the space between the back plate and barrel plate and twisted it to separate them and used the same method on the opposite side to reattach. Below is a picture for reference.

4ACC7685-7CAA-4402-A5DC-8E075E48153A.jpeg (2.41 MiB) Viewed 10280 times

[Weezer]

Your description of sepating plates with a screwdriver made me wince, but the picture clarified what was happening immensely.

I've never used clamps or anything for any model f resto. I can't figure out why you'd need them unless the new foam was extraordinary thick?? I just clench it together with one hand and tap it together/apart with a hammer.

[Weezer]

My biggest blunder was something that was not terribly traumatic for me, but when I first started restoring IBM Model F 122-key terminal boards I decided that since re-assembly was sometimes so difficult that I could devise a better system than the original "sliding force fit" ....

So I put the board together, drilled a number of holes (a dozen or so, as I recall) and then cut off the alignment tabs. And since it worked fine that time, I put together a guide showing how to do it.

The second time I tried it, I realized that the tabs were really a very good and successful method for plate alignment, and that the additional aggravation of putting them back together, with the assistance of multiple clamps, was not really all that difficult.

So I built a new guide that recommended keeping the tabs in place. Unfortunately, people kept finding the old guide even though I deprecated it and added language saying not to cut the tabs, I kept hearing from people who were doing it.

So my mistake continued to plague other people for years down the line.

Why'd you depreciate the old guide instead of just removing it entirely?

[thefarside]

Your description of sepating plates with a screwdriver made me wince, but the picture clarified what was happening immensely.

I've never used clamps or anything for any model f resto. I can't figure out why you'd need them unless the new foam was extraordinary thick?? I just clench it together with one hand and tap it together/apart with a hammer.

I had a hard time getting all of the alignment tabs to slide onto the back plate so I decided to use the clamps. I think removing it was easier but the foam was decently thick and it wouldn’t stay secured enough on its own without some assistance.

[hellothere]

Just while we're on the topic, I can say that using clamps in my Model F XT builds made my life considerably easier ... after I found the post that recommended using clamps. YMMV with other Model F variants.

I'll also add that it's cheaper and easier to buy the finished foam insert for Model Fs than it is to DIY it. Although, that could just be me.

[Bjerrk]

Just while we're on the topic, I can say that using clamps in my Model F XT builds made my life considerably easier ... after I found the post that recommended using clamps. YMMV with other Model F variants.

This! I had such a hard time getting my XT back together without clamps. It was a breeze with clamps, though!

[snacksthecat]

With the best of intentions I once tried repainting a Zenith Z-150 plate using latex paint applied with a foam brush. I did use metal paint primer, but the paint job was bumpy and also peeled a bit if inserting/removing switches. I did not use a spray paint because I live in the city and don’t really have an area where I can use that away from buildings/cars.

So my question: is there any right way to hand paint a plate like this? I still have one or two boards I’d like to restore but don’t want to repeat that same mistake. Just curious about any options I might have given this constraint.