what is the best keyboard

[Findecanor]

I had an idea of posting a picture of Conan the Barbarian with a keyboard instead of his sword and the text "What is best Keyboard in Life?" but I'm not enough motivated.

[Muirium]

I hear you. Here’s nine, because I’m almost just as lazy.

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[vvp]

That is what you get if you ask an AI to generate a picture. It kind of resembles what was asked for but is just a piece of crap

[guidemetothelight]

That is what you get if you ask an AI to generate a picture. It kind of resembles what was asked for but is just a piece of crap

Well , that depends on the ai.
I used Dall-E and holy f*ck , you can get some reaaally good pictures with it.

[Muirium]

Then gimmeh Sean Connery the photorealistic era appropriate IBM salesman!

[guidemetothelight]

Then gimmeh Sean Connery the photorealistic era appropriate IBM salesman!

I think i cant provide that right now

But this is what the A.I / me came up with in 5 minutes while i was bored in class.
It is some kind of self portrait of my online persona.
A frog , typing on a keyboard while sipping some black tea.

DALL·E 2022-10-04 09.31.36.png (1.54 MiB) Viewed 7603 times

I really like it tbh

[vvp]

Well, it is much easier for AI when the style of the image it generates is kind of abstract painting. It is then hard to tell whether something is wrong because it does not correspond to reality or whether it is actually right because it was the artist's goal not to have it corresponding to the reality.

The point is that the network does not actually understand the reality. It just aranges the most resembling fragments of images it was taught over while guided by noise and GPT embeddings.

Lets take a look at your image and assume that it was not supposed to be a somewhat abstract art which is intended not to correspond to the reality. Then:

• is that really a proper picture of sun or proper picture of whatever it is?
• is right hand even a hand, what does the yellow dot in it represent?
• how does the frog hold the cup or is the cup just floating there?
• is it a plant behind the monitor and if yes it the thing below it a flowerpot?
• ...

Look e.g. at this a bit less artistic picture of dall-e2:

The system does not have a proper model of reality since right earing is at an obviously wrong position. It should be hidden behind the neck, possibly just next to the neck but definitely not at the tip of the chin. And where is the left ear?

Don't take me wrong. Dall-e2 is quite an accomplishment. But it is far from correct. Not even mentioning a geneal AI.

[guidemetothelight]

Well, it is much easier for AI when the style of the image it generates is kind of abstract painting. It is then hard to tell whether something is wrong because it does not correspond to reality or whether it is actually right because it was the artist's goal not to have it corresponding to the reality.

That is true , hyperrealisitc pictures arent the strong suit of dall-e. But i dont think art has to be correct to to be "good". What is good art anyway. I was just really impressed by how a few words typed into some online programm gives me a better image then i could have drawn myself (even with weeks of trying). but i have to point out, i suck at art.

Don't take me wrong. Dall-e2 is quite an accomplishment. But it is far from correct. Not even mentioning a geneal AI.

I think so too. Thinking about the fact that Image A.I´s are just in their baby shoes, it gives me goosebumps. Not to mention general AI , which is probably still "in the womb" (sorry for the bad comparison)

[del20nd]

By the numbers it appears to be the IBM Model F. And since this is post #69 we all have to agree with its conclusion, because... nice. I for one am glad we've finally settled this discussion for good.

Now... what's the best Model F layout?

[Muirium]

Kishsaver. Settled on page 1. It doesn’t get any better. Baby F, you’re the best.

[LambdaCore]

My dream keyboard is the Model F107, but the best keyboard depends on what you’re looking for.

From just my collection alone I’d say as follows:

Best clicky keyboard: my trusty Model F XT

Best tactile keyboard: my modified salmon alps Omnikey

Best linear keyboard: ?????

Best quiet keyboard: 55g Topre Realforce

I think my favorite layout is my modified Model F XT, giving a 2u shift and compromising with a 1.5u backspace alongside a more traditional nav cluster layout over the nav layer makes it absolutely sublime. Oh and ctrl should ALWAYS be to the left of the A key, where caps lock tends to be on the model M! I know HHKB guys’ll agree with me here.

I recommend getting the F XT, I got mine for under a hundred on eBay which these days isn’t a bad deal but you might find better deals if you’re really looking

[Muirium]

Compassionate human beings agree Control is left of A. Caps Lockers can go MAKE MISTAKES GRATE AGAIN over in the Elon corner.

[LambdaCore]

Caps lock is quite possibly my least used key and is relegated to where it is on a stock model F XT. Who ever thought moving such an essential key to the far corner must suffer!

[Muirium]

Shift + Shift = Caps Lock. A destructive operation, which requires two simultaneous keys…

[LambdaCore]

Mmm, I like the way you think. Creative solution! Though I’d prefer a less likely combination to avoid accidents, perhaps alt + shift = caps lock? I gotta try this when I get home! It’d free up another key near the numpad I could map a useful macro to when in nav mode

[Findecanor]

In bpiphany's original firmware for the Phantom keyboard (one of the first DIY kits, remember the GB here ten years ago, veterans?), Shift+Shift was used to enter the bootloader.
I noticed that randomly when typing, my keyboard stopped working, and I had pull out the USB lead and put it back in ... until I figured out what was wrong and modified the firmware to do it on Ctrl+Left Super+Right Super instead.

[Muirium]

Hasu does it, too. But Shift + Shift + Pause for bootloader, which evades my own use to hide disruptive things. He calls Shift + Shift “Magic” and you can redefine it when building his firmware from source.

Mmm, I like the way you think. Creative solution! Though I’d prefer a less likely combination to avoid accidents, perhaps alt + shift = caps lock? I gotta try this when I get home! It’d free up another key near the numpad I could map a useful macro to when in nav mode

Shift + Alt + left/right arrow keys… important! (If you don’t know why, try them in text. Game changer.)

[Seirin-Blu]

Best keyboards, plural.



Drop a mic like that and you’ll break your foot.

Please don’t tell me you have four of these but haven’t cleaned any of them at the very least.

If you haven’t I’d be willing to take one and clean it /hj

[Muirium]

It would take more than an hj to convince me to part ways with my one and only Kishsaver, and that’s no /hj

I had all those 4 (and a numpad unit) for a few days, many years ago, proxying to all of Britain. The bottom left one stayed, and became the first Kishsaver to ever be powered by Xwhatsit. He built and shipped me the prototype F controller himself! Since then, it’s remained in frequent use and I love it to bits. A few four figure offers have come my way to take it, but I’d miss the little guy too much. Been through too much together to lose him.

[LambdaCore]

I think the biggest thing keeping me from the kishsaver repro is the lack of F keys, otherwise I’d definitely jump at it.

[Muirium]

The Kishsaver has 12 function keys, right across the top, exactly where they are on the HHKB and every sixty. Quit being Fn' difficult.

Look at it this way: everyone uses layers. Look at what your fingers are doing when you type uppercase. Goodness me: that Shift key looks well shifty! Grown up, sensible keyboards should really have a dedicated CAPITALS BLOCK WHERE YOU CAN TYPE WITH EASE. I suggest putting it on the right, like literally everything else.

[del20nd]

The Kishsaver has 12 function keys, right across the top, exactly where they are on the HHKB and every sixty. Quit being Fn' difficult.

Look at it this way: everyone uses layers. Look at what your fingers are doing when you type uppercase. Goodness me: that Shift key looks well shifty! Grown up, sensible keyboards should really have a dedicated CAPITALS BLOCK WHERE YOU CAN TYPE WITH EASE. I suggest putting it on the right, like literally everything else.

I'm behind this argument for 99% of people.

The problem for me is that I'm a developer for the IBM iSeries and have to use the terminal emulator fairly regularly (ie- the thing that those giant terminal keyboards were designed for.) That not only requires using F1-12 pretty regularly, but also F13-24, which are accessed with shift as a modifier. So in my case I'd have to use double modifiers every time I wanted to, say, back out of a menu. It's already fairly hard to keep track of which key maps to which (quick, in one second, which function key is modded to F17) so adding another layer on that would get old fast.

So for me personally, the F122 is the best layout. I can map the actual F13-24 keys to work as T. J. Watson's cold, grey corporate ghost intended.

But for most? Yeah, modifying to get the function keys is probably an okay compromise.

[Muirium]

Agreed. Those battleships were made for your use case.

I had a 122 key for a while but never did find an adequate use for all those function keys. The left cluster I can understand—my first mech was an XT and I still use my AT and beamspring regularly—but F13-24 is this undifferentiated strip of possibilities I never managed to remember. Sure, there’s plenty of things I can put on them, but the key for me is remembering where!

Spoiler:

It only ever grows…

My mind, and my fingers, work best with modifiers and a letter. I put all the good stuff on the 60% block and it works across all my keyboards as a result.

[LambdaCore]

The Kishsaver has 12 function keys, right across the top, exactly where they are on the HHKB and every sixty. Quit being Fn' difficult.

Look at it this way: everyone uses layers. Look at what your fingers are doing when you type uppercase. Goodness me: that Shift key looks well shifty! Grown up, sensible keyboards should really have a dedicated CAPITALS BLOCK WHERE YOU CAN TYPE WITH EASE. I suggest putting it on the right, like literally everything else.

I'm behind this argument for 99% of people.

The problem for me is that I'm a developer for the IBM iSeries and have to use the terminal emulator fairly regularly (ie- the thing that those giant terminal keyboards were designed for.) That not only requires using F1-12 pretty regularly, but also F13-24, which are accessed with shift as a modifier. So in my case I'd have to use double modifiers every time I wanted to, say, back out of a menu. It's already fairly hard to keep track of which key maps to which (quick, in one second, which function key is modded to F17) so adding another layer on that would get old fast.

So for me personally, the F122 is the best layout. I can map the actual F13-24 keys to work as T. J. Watson's cold, grey corporate ghost intended.

But for most? Yeah, modifying to get the function keys is probably an okay compromise.

I've done this with my HHKB. It works fine enough for what I use it for, portable use, but in other scenarios? It'd be too clunky for me personally.

[vvp]

You guys need a keyboard with thumb clusters and all the modifiers on the thumbs. Then you can easily have e.g. F1-F9,F10 on keys 1-9,0 through Fn1 and keys F11-F20 through1-9,0 through Fn2.
Easily using an approach like this: viewtopic.php?p=250605#p250605

It is an exercise for the reader to figure out where to put F21-F24

It is a real pity of old keyboards that they put big-ass space bar on the location of the keyboard which is the most easily and precisely reachable by thumbs. Highest value keyboard real estate location is wasted by a big space bar. Instead that location should be taken by a bunch of small keys which can serve as modifiers (Win, Ctrl, Alt, Shift, Fn1, Fn2, ...) and maybe space/backSpace to be pressed by thumbs. That allows to avoid reaching for modifiers with pinkies or moving whole hand. It is very comfortable to press a modifier with a thumb while pressing a key with a finger (even when the finger is on the same hand).

But that is what we get when the keyboards inherited from typewriters. The designers screwed it up with the typewriters and the keyboards continue the nonsense. What a pity and sometimes even unnecessary hand pain.

[hellothere]

Well, for me, a non-typist, I'm relatively happy with where my shift keys are ... but I almost always use the left shift and I almost always actuate it with my third (ring) finger. I use various fingers for the modifier keys. Never a pinky, tho.

[Muirium]

I agree with the principle of making better use of thumbs. Thumbs were made for mods, so put more of them down in front there! That's basically how I type, in my not-at-all-home-row-bound floating hands style: my thumbs hover around for mods alone, with the right one doing double duty with the same (under N and M) patch on the spacebar. I might as well have a few more modifier keys down there for all the use that extra bar takes up. Maybe a backspace on the symmetric left and a couple of new keys in the middle for layering? I'd have to give them a fair bit of thought.

I’m not drawn to many of the other ergo concerns, though. I like my vintage boards as they are, and I value instant familiarity with most any keyboard I encounter, however new. Whatever it is I’m doing already works for me, even the dirty Qwerty secret! But I get what drives you guys, too. I’m a 60% fan, I get a lot of similar "one size must fit all" critique!

[guidemetothelight]

i see your frogboard & i raise you this:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anz ... nt=app_ios

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[Findecanor]

It does not look better in person... There is also one with Yoda.

I used to be a Star Wars fan but even back when they were new, I wouldn't want to be caught dead with one of those.

[TNT]

Shift + Shift = Caps Lock. A destructive operation, which requires two simultaneous keys…

I'm a bit ashamed to admit this, but you just blew my mind