F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[ivor_h]

Thanks! I started watching late last night and was surprised it was gone this morning when I continued but managed to find the new link from a google search.
Fascinating video, superb to see and hear the inside story and all the details and gotchas of manufacturing. Just trying to talk myself into hitting "place" on my 104 order now.

[Ellipse]

The first F104 with a sample Model M classic style die cast aluminum powdercoated case has been completed! Photos below. The sample case has some casting issues which you can see in the photo. The factory is looking to correct these issues before proceeding to production.

I like the texture of the sample cases (more photos of the texture are in some prior posts).

Please disregard the 5 incorrect 1.5U key and 2U Vertical colors (should be pebble instead of pearl).

2023 04 03 M Style F104 first assembled unit (1) - Copy.jpg (1018.8 KiB) Viewed 8709 times

2023 04 03 M Style F104 first assembled unit (2).jpg (1.72 MiB) Viewed 8713 times

[Arkku]

Regarding the Fn key on split keyboards, I am hoping the QMK and Via experts can see what workarounds are possible, if any.

If each half has its own USB cable and shows up as a separate keyboard, the solution would need to be done in the computer side. A hybrid solution would theoretically be possible that pressing the Fn key would be sent back to the keyboard as a fake LED (for example), and a custom firmware would pretend that the local Fn is pressed when the LED is lit, but that would need software support on the computer (i.e., some program that listens to a specific, otherwise unused, key being held and lights up this virtual LED; maybe the scroll lock LED could be repurposed for this).

The way the Ergodox keyboards handle this is that the two halves are connected to each other and only the "master" half is connected to the computer, where it shows as a single keyboard. The controllers in in the new model F keyboards could certainly be reprogrammed to work like this, but an additional connector for the cable between them would be needed. 4 wires should be sufficient (power, ground, data and clock).

[Zcool31]

Very very impressive. Are there plans for zinc M-style cases?

[jwsz]

Are all of these newer model F's (104, ssk, etc) detachable USB-C?

[Vizir]

Regarding the Fn key on split keyboards, I am hoping the QMK and Via experts can see what workarounds are possible, if any.

If each half has its own USB cable and shows up as a separate keyboard, the solution would need to be done in the computer side. A hybrid solution would theoretically be possible that pressing the Fn key would be sent back to the keyboard as a fake LED (for example), and a custom firmware would pretend that the local Fn is pressed when the LED is lit, but that would need software support on the computer (i.e., some program that listens to a specific, otherwise unused, key being held and lights up this virtual LED; maybe the scroll lock LED could be repurposed for this).

The way the Ergodox keyboards handle this is that the two halves are connected to each other and only the "master" half is connected to the computer, where it shows as a single keyboard. The controllers in in the new model F keyboards could certainly be reprogrammed to work like this, but an additional connector for the cable between them would be needed. 4 wires should be sufficient (power, ground, data and clock).

it should certainly be possible as I have used split keebs from http://www.rgkbk.net and using split usb-c cables.

[Ellipse]

Zcool31 the cases will be all aluminum except for the F62/F77 classic style cases which remain zinc. Zinc is just too heavy!

jwsz yes they are all USB C. They are not case mounted though, so you have to unscrew the keyboard or buy a USB-C extension cable.

Vizir please do share more details on how this works. I can't seem to access your link.

[Arkku]

it should certainly be possible as I have used split keebs from http://www.rgkbk.net and using split usb-c cables.

The link doesn't work, so just to confirm: do both cables go to the computer and no cable between the two halves of the keyboard? And then holding an Fn key (that is not Apple Fn, but rather a custom one defined) changes how keys behave on the other half where you are not holding the key.

For example, if you have mapped Fn + Tab to send Caps Lock key, does it work if you hold the Fn key on the right half and press Tab on the left half? It seems impossible without custom drivers (or some direct communication between the halves).

[sedevidi]

(or some direct communication between the halves).

That mystery split USB-C cable could be the key... Each controller could spy on the other one's USB traffic, or some wires inside the cable could be routed between both halfs.

[Arkku]

That mystery split USB-C cable could be the key... Each controller could spy on the other one's USB traffic, or some wires inside the cable could be routed between both halfs.

Yeah, if split cable means that it connects the two halves in the middle, then of course the cable can be why it works.

[Ellipse]

Here is a nice article on the new Model F project posted in The Register today: https://forums.theregister.com/forum/al ... keyboards/

[Findecanor]

The news have hit Ars Technica: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/04 ... -computers

[Ellipse]

The news have hit Ars Technica: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/04 ... -computers

Thanks for sharing that link! Everyone please do keep sharing links here if they come across project mentions. Most times I only learn about articles when someone sends me a link.

I read in the comments section about a small number of folks who prefer the space between Ctrl and Alt to have no key (no Win/Gui key). I remember some folks were talking about 3d printing a part to serve as a flat low profile cap that could snap into the cut out key hole on a Model F top inner assembly for folks who want a gap between those keys - does anyone have details on this mod?

[Scarpia]

I read in the comments section about a small number of folks who prefer the space between Ctrl and Alt to have no key (no Win/Gui key).

I am in this camp. As a MacOS user who prefers to reconfigure the CapsLock key to Cmd/Ctrl, I have no use for the 1U keys on the bottom row. On my F77 I do need a Fn key, but my F77 has a split right shift for this purpose.

I also find that the WKL gaps help my fingers locate the modifiers better, so if I could block out those 1U keys I would. The question is if a 3D printed blocker would mess with the capsense — at least on my F77, if I remove a button and leave the barrel and spring exposed, that key goes bananas unless I disable the key in the controller.

[Zcool31]

What if the blocker is designed to hold the spring roughly like an unpressed key?

[dcopellino]

Here follows an article issued ON the Italian WIRED.

[Zcool31]

Ars ran an article.

[Ellipse]

The new project has made it onto the homepage of slashdot!

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/23/ ... i-incoming

Here follows an article issued ON the Italian WIRED.

Thanks for sharing this link.

slashdot home page Model F article 4-5-23.png (247.1 KiB) Viewed 8114 times

[Muirium]

Slashdot still even looks the same as it did back when I last read it. Well sized for browsing on a PowerBook.

[Ellipse]

Everyone please resubscribe to the updated YouTube channel for the project:

https://www.youtube.com/@Brand_New_Model_F_Keyboards

To catch everyone up, here are the updated links to each of the previously posted project videos. The older links posted in this thread prior to this month may not be working.

Full size and other Brand New Model F Keyboards major project launch today! Typing test and teardown

New full size and other Model F keyboards launch today! Introducing the Brand New Model F Keyboard

Google NYC Tech Talk on Bringing Back the Model F Keyboard

Brand New Beam Spring Keyboards Setup Guide

Model F Keyboard Quality control secrets REVEALED - fixing nonworking or buzzing keys, typing test

CNC Milling a keycap injection mold: Brand New Model F Keyboard production

Brand New Model F Keyboards production video: Laser cutting the top inner assembly

Brand New Beam Spring Keyboard Project - typing test original vs. new

The first time I typed on a Model F keyboard! Brand New Model F Keyboards Project

Solenoid Installation Guide and Sound Test (Model F and Beam Spring Keyboards)

Brand New Model F Keyboard setup: keycap installation

Brand New Beam Spring Module Sound Comparison Test original vs. new

Dead Simple Model F Firmware Customization and Setup Guide - QMK, Via / Vial - xwhatsit controllers

Brand New Model F production: First tests of the 2018 custom built pneumatic spring attacher!

Adjusting the solenoid settings (Model F and Beam Spring keyboards)

Brand New Model F Keyboards instructional video: Opening up and closing the keyboard inner assembly

Brand New Model F Keyboards production video: Stamping the inner foam

Attaching 100,000 Model F springs+flippers! Production spring+flipper attacher machine

Brand New Model F production Keyboards production video: inner assembly stamping and bending

The first new production custom made Model F solenoids! Brand New Model F Keyboards production

OFFICIAL way the factory closes the Model F inner assembly! Model F Keyboards production

Making the old IDE hard drive style ribbon cables: Brand New Model F Keyboards production

Injection molding the first new production Model F keycaps! Brand New Model F Keyboards

Aluminum cases sample scratch test powdercoating

[AnnoyedWalrus]

This is really really awesome. The possibility of a F122 not (that) much bigger than a normal model M is really interesting to me.

By the way, I was looking at the 3D render of the F122 and was wondering, is it possible to make the numpad into a 5x4 keypad or do we have to use the two 2U Plus, Enter and Zero keys?

[Rauha]

Really enjoyed the Google talk. Both highly informative and excellent presentation wise as well.

One possibly really, really stupid question. So, cannot use the metal F104 case with Model Ms, but would the opposite work? I mean could I use regular plastic Model M case with the F104 inner assembly? Would it at least fit in (+ maybe some personal modding to seat it properly)?

Not really interested on getting yet-another-model F, but my Model F AT has always sounded like the best sounding Model F for my ears, and its in plastic case. Got interested on maybe having F104 in a (plastic) Model M case.

[Ellipse]

Today the project is featured in TechSpot, ExtremeTech, and Adafruit's blog!

https://www.techspot.com/news/98225-new ... lable.html

https://www.extremetech.com/electronics ... more-sizes

https://blog.adafruit.com/2023/04/07/ne ... keyboards/

AnnoyedWalrus there are not enough pads in the 16x8 matrix unfortunately. Hopefully that will change in the future with the forthcoming Leyden Jar controller mentioned earlier, as it might have 2 more columns.

Nope the cases are not interchangeable. Maybe you can mod the case but I would say it is unlikely.

I do not think the case being plastic or metal has much of an impact on the sound. My thinking is that is due to most of the keyboard top being exposed and open to the keys.

[sedevidi]

Today the project is featured in TechSpot, ExtremeTech, and Adafruit's blog!

Nice to see so much interest. You reached viral status

AnnoyedWalrus there are not enough pads in the 16x8 matrix unfortunately. Hopefully that will change in the future with the forthcoming Leyden Jar controller mentioned earlier, as it might have 2 more columns.

Do you mean that the sensor PCB have enough pads for 5×4 numpad, and we just have to wait for a replacement controller?
Or the current sensor PCB is wired for the 16×8 matrix supported by the current controller, and we have to hope for a F122v2 that will have more pads and keys?

Sorry, but you accustomed me to a regular 5×3 numpad on the F77, and I don't want to go back to the weird numpad everyone uses... But your F122 is gorgeous...

[Ellipse]

The production F122s currently on the project site are expected to have more splittable keys as delivered - not through a future update. No need to buy an update board or wait for a future update.

The F122 sample PCB uses all 128 pads currently to allow for ISO and ANSI, but with the production Leyden Jar controller the plan as noted earlier is to add 2 additional columns to have a 18x8 matrix to allow for splitting of all keys including HHKB style split right shift and split/regular backspace which are offered as current configurable options on the F122 page.

[Ordinary Witch]

Nice! extra keys are always appreciated, and with this I can emulate the terminal keypad more accurately, 'cause I was a very smart cookie and ordered the first aid kit along with the extra keycaps. I'll need to look into the RP2040 MCU on the leyden jar controller, since I'm only familiar with flashing AVR MCUs.

edit: wow. there are so many options to flash these. there's picotool that you can use to put the MCU into bootloader mode and flash it entirely via USB but apparently you can literally just do

Code: Select all

cat firmware.uf2 > /dev/sdX

to flash an RP2040 that's already in bootloader mode, from what I can tell.

second edit: so not only are we getting a controller that has more columns and extra space, said controller is also easier to program (at least in theory). I'm now more excited for the production boards than when I reserved one >.<

[Ellipse]

Leyden Jar RP2040 flashing is so easy, you can even copy and paste the firmware file to Explorer and it automatically loads the firmware. No third party program or command is necessary.

[Zcool31]

Should I start modeling the F104 and FSSK for the technical manual?

[Ellipse]

Yes sounds good!

Leyden Jar controller update: forum member Rico has posted an update on the Leyden Jar controller project below. This project uses the RP2040 chip and these controllers will hopefully power the current F122 production round and other boards in the future, once my current stock of ATMEGAs is depleted. I have tested the controller on the beam spring Round 2 prototype and all keys work perfectly so far. Rico plans to add 2 more columns to the project.

One way to add them is to change the two right side ground holes to 2 columns as shown in the attachment (I have circled these two holes). This way, the controller does not become too wide that it does not function with the current new Model F and Beam Spring keyboards. These columns will be ignored for all firmware except F122. For all other keyboards, the holes are connected to ground on the capacitive PCBs. Another option is to widen the controller to add 2 holes as also pictured in the attachment. It would be one or the other, not both changes.

https://www.keebtalk.com/t/the-leyden-j ... s/17489/18

The_Leyden_Jar_Front columns added.png (283.25 KiB) Viewed 7579 times

[Ellipse]

Does anyone have feedback on specific changes to improve the project web site? I use wordpress and woocommerce so there are limitations on what is possible. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer.