F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[thefarside]

The dark grey keys are nice. Light grey would be interesting.

Ellipse I’m curious if pad printing would be possible on other colored keys than black. Would other colors be possible?

[depletedvespene]

… Ellipse "light gray" caps would fix that problem...

Funny you should mention this, because...

After months, I finally got off my lazy ass and replaced the all-blank keycaps on my F77. This is it now looks like:

https://www.farah.cl/0/dt/01.jpg
F77, esLA layout. Cream alphas, dark gray modifiers, three (Ellipse) blue mods.

NOTE: for some reason, the attachment uploading isn't working on DT right now.

Ellipse's cream alphas + dark gray modifiers looks good, but I'd rather go with a non-warm tone. "Brilliant white" it's too much for me, so a light gray would be (IMNAAHO) best, probably the same or "close enough" to Unicomp's gray.

I swapped two keys with Unicomp gray keys, and note the difference.

https://www.farah.cl/0/dt/02.jpg
F77 on the front; Unicomp Mini-M (ok, Mini-X) on the back. Note Ellipse's F77 key on the Unicomp.

Ellipse's blue goes well with the cream key, but I opine that Unicomp's (darker) blue better fits the dark gray keys.



Note the F77 and the Mini-M side-by-side front-and-back:

https://www.farah.cl/0/dt/03.jpg
F77, esLA layout. Cream alphas, dark gray modifiers, three (Ellipse) blue mods; UNICOMP invaders: one blue and two grays.


So, write me up for a (light) gray set!

[depletedvespene]

This is the only one that got to be uploaded.

Let's test this again. It works now!

F77, esLA layout. Cream alphas, dark gray modifiers, three (Ellipse) blue mods.

01.jpg (128.83 KiB) Viewed 214837 times

F77, esLA layout. Cream alphas, dark gray modifiers, two (Ellipse) blue mods and two black unprinted keys; UNICOMP invaders: one blue and two grays.

02.jpg (128.43 KiB) Viewed 214772 times

F77 on the front; Unicomp Mini-M (ok, Mini-X) on the back. Note Ellipse's F77 key on the Unicomp.

03.jpg (168.15 KiB) Viewed 214772 times

Decent pictures, instead of these photatoes, to be taken later.

[genericusername57]

Is there any remedy for a ticking sound from some of the keys? Unfortunately this happens for me on E which as you might know is usually the most used letter. I have tried reseating the spring as well as swapping it for another from a key without any dissonance but to no avail. I don't have any other spare parts on hand since I got this board second hand.

[depletedvespene]

Now, a somewhat better picture of my F77.

F77, esLA layout.

F77.jpg (144.41 KiB) Viewed 214667 times

Note the placement of the Esc key. The "Caps Lock vs. Ctrl on the home row" holy war is over, and both sides have lost. Esc is the way to go; vi forever.

HRI keys: F, J, 6.

HRI_F.jpg (220.05 KiB) Viewed 214667 times

Also note the extra HRI key, custom made as well. A position indicator on the number row has proven to be so useful in numpadless keyboards that I opine it should be standard on all keyboards.

[Ellipse]

Today a great review of the new Model F keyboard (Ultra Compact F77 variation) was posted on EuroGamer:

https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundr ... y-gone-age

Thanks for sharing your customized setup depletedvespene! I like how much thought you have put into devising the optimal layout. The CSA and BEPO layouts are available to order but they have been finalized.

genericusername57 please check out the new setup video in the manual on the project web site. I recommend picking up the First Aid Kit on the project web site as you probably need a new spring. There is a specific process for removing and reinstalling the springs and you can damage a spring if you are just pulling it off the nub for example.

thefarside yes pad printing can be on any color key. I think it would look nice on the blue and dark gray keys.

[thefarside]

Ellipse regarding the pad printing for other colors, do you have any cost info? I’m curious if there was interest in pad printing for other colors what the minimum order would be.

[Ellipse]

thefarside there should be no extra cost for the white pad print paint on any key color. For pad print colors other than white I'd have to check after they have more details on costs when they are ready to start production.

[genericusername57]

genericusername57 please check out the new setup video in the manual on the project web site. I recommend picking up the First Aid Kit on the project web site as you probably need a new spring. There is a specific process for removing and reinstalling the springs and you can damage a spring if you are just pulling it off the nub for example.

Unfortunately swapping springs between two keys does not move the issue so I don't think the spring is the problem. I have fixed some other dissonance on other keys by reseating or moving springs but it doesn't make a difference in this instance. I guess I might need to swap the entire barrel and flipper configuration to somewhere else. Unfortunately I can't motivate the cost of a first aid kit plus shipping to Sweden to potentially fix the issue. I was just wondering if there were any other tricks that I wasn't aware of (I have watched the setup video)

[Gunsight1]

So i think my keyboard is in the process of giving out. The 2 indicated collums keep going dead. If i remove and re-seat all the keys on those collums they work for about 2-3 keypresses then both collums go dead again. At first i was hoping it was springs skipping from where they should be, but with 2 whole collums going out leads me to think something on the board has gone bad. Though it is strange that they will work again for a moment after removing snd reinstalling the keys. Does anyone have any idea what might be going on? I really like this keyboard and am bummed its no longer usable

[Ellipse]

The Model F has made it to the PC World Best Mechanical Keyboards of 2023 list! A nice honor for the project.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/1966306 ... oards.html

Gunsight1 not to worry, your issue is specifically described in the manual on the project web site - please take a look there. Seems like a column's solder needs some touching up.

genericusername57 there is a specific process to installing the springs as shown in the setup video in the manual on the project web site. Just swapping springs without following the manual will not likely solve this issue. Again going through the setup video fully is the best way to fix nearly any issue.

[robo]

The Model F has made it to the PC World Best Mechanical Keyboards of 2023 list! A nice honor for the project.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/1966306 ... oards.html

Oof.. they call it a Model M!

[Ellipse]

With permission I am sharing the first photos of a new Model F setup with the F50! The new project keyboards started going out this month but there are still many more to ship of each of the three types of keyboards.

IMG_0722.jpg (2.17 MiB) Viewed 214285 times

IMG_0725.jpg (1.71 MiB) Viewed 214285 times

[genericusername57]

genericusername57 there is a specific process to installing the springs as shown in the setup video in the manual on the project web site. Just swapping springs without following the manual will not likely solve this issue. Again going through the setup video fully is the best way to fix nearly any issue.

Respectfully, I have watched the setup video and the springs are correctly installed. If the spring was faulty it would exhibit the same dissonance in another spot, and swapping the spring for a new one would remove the dissonance on E. As it stands, this happens regardless of what spring sits in the spot, and I have tried multiple. If this was due to me not mounting the springs correctly then surely I would cause problems in other places by incorrectly mounting springs there, but I know how they are meant to be aligned and placed and have fixed other kinds of dissonance by adjusting them (buzzing for example). This however is a clicking sound that only happens on this key and maybe one or two others that is not fixed by adjusting or replacing springs, hence my question what to try next.

But I guess I will find the time at one point to disassemble the keyboard and move the entire barrel and flipper from another spot to see if that solves the issue, unless you have another suggestion (other than referring to the setup video which I, again, have already watched).

[Ellipse]

genericusername57 my overall recommendation is to accept that each key will not sound the same on a Model F, whether IBM or the reproductions. Since you mentioned that you bought the board secondhand, you do not know how it was installed, handled, or used. However there are some suggestions for the many folks who are particular about the sounds of each key. Sometimes re-using or slightly stretching other springs does not produce an adequate sound and you need to get a new spring and flipper if it bothers you. I also have a batch of slightly longer springs available (a test batch) that some folks have reported improves the sound for specific keys.

Also try swapping the key temporarily with another 1U key (not likely the issue but who knows!). You can always have a friend order a keyboard and you can order a first aid kit to ship with it at no extra cost if funds are tight. Also you may want to put some extra foam material on top of the affected barrel and below the inner foam, to reduce the extra space. There are also some more advanced steps to changing the Model F sound that I have shared in the past - one example is decreasing the radius of the top inner assembly plate's curve by using a vice, which can increase snappiness. I did this with an original F107 plate many years ago.

[Muirium]

my overall recommendation is to accept that each key will not sound the same on a Model F, whether IBM or the reproductions.

That's not my experience with IBM Model Fs. My Kishsaver had a few dodgy keys at first which came straight back to life with different flippers. It's been a superbly balanced keyboard in all my use, ever since. My AT was that good straight out of Cindy's recycling warehouse, before and after I added extra keys. My first mech was an XT and it was always perfect.

The key to Model F maintenance is to have a parts XT on the side.

[thefarside]

The key to Model F maintenance is to have a parts XT on the side.

Absolutely! This is also why I have an XT. Model Fs aren’t hard to disassemble thankfully but if you need parts look for a cheap one like an XT.

[Fond Lion]

I would love to know more about the design process IBM used for these caps now that I have spent quite a bit of time working on reproducing them. They obviously started with Helvetica Bold (the leg on the R is the giveaway) but then did stuff like squashing the W so it wouldn't be any wider than the other legends. All the corners are slightly rounded off as well but it's not at a Helvetica Rounded level. These somewhat rounded endcaps take the most time by far to reproduce BTW. I don't know if they are an artifact of the production process or an intentional design element.

I think the Model F font might be influenced by the older Beamspring font. Especially the K is constructed in a similar, slightly unusual way in both fonts: Because the connection of the right arm and leg is quite close to the left stem, the K looks like a mixture of the usual forms with T-shaped and V-shaped connections. The following image shows: Helvetica (T-shaped connection further away from the left stem), Beamspring font, Model F font, Futura (V-shaped connection close to the left stem).

K.png (11.7 KiB) Viewed 213924 times

Another similarity is the narrow W.

Here's a comparison of (1) Beamspring font, (2) older Model F font, (3) newer Model F font, (4) Helvetica as used by Unicomp:

comparison.png (90.54 KiB) Viewed 213924 times

The newer Model F font seems to be closer to Helvetica (e. g. narrower Y, narrower and boxier G). However, it still has the unusual K and narrow W.

Image sources:

Spoiler:

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viewtopic.php?p=481208#p481208
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https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_ ... 7_0041.jpg

[Ellipse]

Posting (with permission) a nice red F50 and off-white/beige F77 setup. "I use it with REWASD and plane black keys to give me more key options and macros per application."

20231028_234440.jpg (2.91 MiB) Viewed 213743 times

[Ellipse]

Screw specifications and spare screws available:

This is not listed on the project site but if anyone needs spare screws / bolts please let me know as I have plenty of them. The zinc case boards use 6-32 x 1/2" thread screws with philips heads. Some of the total screws in each set may have the wrong quantity number so please double check.

As noted earlier the project's T8 M2.5 metric screws were custom molded for this project with various lengths. Below are the metric screw lengths for everyone's reference. Please email me if you need additional sets of screws.

Controller ground screws for all keyboards (2 per keyboard) are 6-32 x 3/16" (keyboards with P clips use these same screws).

The Round 2 keyboards use different screws, primarily those with hex heads or torx heads, specifications to follow later.

screw specifications T8 - Copy.png (13.57 KiB) Viewed 213428 times

[szechun]

Hey all,

I'm having an issue with the "d" key on my f77. The key no longer registers and when I use the signal monitor I can see it's giving a signal albeit a lower signal than normal (~140 vs. ~180 of a key that does register). I've flashed the firmware with vial and on the vial matrix tester it never registers either. Anyway I can get the keyboard to recognize it even with the lower signal? I've tried replugging it every time this happens and it would take multiple tries initially but now replugging it no longer works. I also haven't found any answers on the forums, I've confirmed the layout includes the "d" key.

[Ellipse]

szechun the fixes for your issue are described specifically in the manual on the project web site. Likely a spring adjustment or replacement is needed.

[The Keyboard Oracle]

I'm having an issue with the "d" key on my f77. The key no longer registers and when I use the signal monitor I can see it's giving a signal albeit a lower signal than normal (~140 vs. ~180 of a key that does register). I've flashed the firmware with vial and on the vial matrix tester it never registers either. Anyway I can get the keyboard to recognize it even with the lower signal? I've tried replugging it every time this happens and it would take multiple tries initially but now replugging it no longer works. I also haven't found any answers on the forums, I've confirmed the layout includes the "d" key.

The Keyboard Oracle has decided: thy problem is not electrical or software, yet mechanical 'i nature. The path to the wholeness may be found by reseating the keycap or by replacing the spring.

[Ellipse]

Sharing with permission another F50 customization. This one is interesting because some flippers were removed to allow for 2U vertical keys to be placed (one can't just remove the spring as the stabilizer insert would not have enough room to be seated inside the barrel fully).

Also the number pad has some reversed parts compared to the IBM right-sided number pad block design. I don't recall seeing such a mod before - is this common with left-handed number pad keyboards?

red f50 - Copy.jpeg (1.13 MiB) Viewed 213255 times

[engr]

I don't recall seeing such a mod before - is this common with left-handed number pad keyboards?

Not super common, but it's not unheard of.

[RedESC]

Sharing with permission another F50 customization. This one is interesting because some flippers were removed to allow for 2U vertical keys to be placed (one can't just remove the spring as the stabilizer insert would not have enough room to be seated inside the barrel fully).

Also the number pad has some reversed parts compared to the IBM right-sided number pad block design. I don't recall seeing such a mod before - is this common with left-handed number pad keyboards?

red f50 - Copy.jpeg

I enjoy the F key layout on that board. I can tell he chose that purely based on key colour. (It'd be quite uneven any other way I think)

[Fond Lion]

I enjoy the F key layout on that board. I can tell he chose that purely based on key colour. (It'd be quite uneven any other way I think)

It might not be intentional, but I also like that it mirrors the columnar order of the Ins, Del etc. keys in the middle.

And it reminds me of the Sun keyboards, which have additional function keys on the left side, ordered by columns.

[Muirium]

Still needs F13-15 though. Or maybe something else best served in threes?

[RedESC]

Still needs F13-15 though. Or maybe something else best served in threes?

Guess we will have the F122 for that when they ship.

[taraskremen]

I don't recall seeing such a mod before - is this common with left-handed number pad keyboards?

Not super common, but it's not unheard of.

Hi all! Owner of the pictured F50 here. It is indeed not a very common layout, which is surprising to me, and my case for it is entirely based in ergonomics. According to ergonomic principles, most full-size and TKL keyboards are actually designed (though not intentionally) to work best for left-handed people. This is because the navigation cluster and the numpad were developed before mice and other pointing devices became commonplace. Back in the day, those were the "pointing" devices, but as point-and-click GUIs became more commonplace and mouse use became the norm, for some reason keyboard designs did not adapt to the new paradigm.

I am a right-handed software developer, and I spend the majority of my time behind a computer typing on the keyboard. To be efficient and ergonomic for typing, the keyboard should be horizontally centered such that the space between the middle-most home row keys (G and H in the QWERTY layout) is aligned with the center of the user. To do this with a full-size keyboard for a person who uses the mouse with the right hand would mean positioning the mouse so far away from the typical typing position that it requires awkward (un-ergonomic) movements to reach it, and even more awkward ones to move it. If you use a mouse with the left hand, however, this setup is perfect, because it allows you to position the mouse within easy reach and to move it without awkward shoulder rotations. I tried to teach myself how to use the mouse with the left hand for this reason, but it never felt natural to me, and I decided to adapt the keyboard setup instead.

modelf-compact-f104.jpg (867.4 KiB) Viewed 212940 times

Having the numpad and arrow cluster on the left is very comfortable once I got over the slight learning curve. I've seen some keyboards that just relocate the numpad as-is to the left, but this is not ideal, because the Plus and Enter keys on this layout were designed to be easily accessed with the pinky finger, and sometimes it is easier to use the thumb instead of a finger for the Zero key. Reversing the numbers themselves, on the other hand, does more harm than good, since many of us have a pretty good intuitive understanding of how a keypad should look and feel, and that numbers should increase from left to right. Plus, swapping the 6 and 4 keys makes a lot of hard-coded navigation awkward. The rest is pretty straightforward: Minus above Plus; Divide above 8, as in normal numpads. Num Lock is in the furthest place because of how infrequently it is used relative to the other keys. In my completely biased opinion, this should have been the standard full-size layout since the early '90s.

Anyway, here is the complete setup. And, yes, I did run out of matching keys to use for the F cluster. I plan to replace the lower three with relegendables in the future. For now they are mapped as Ctrl, Alt/Option, and Command/OS. The key to the left of the Up arrow is Left Shift, and the key to the right activates the second layer when held, which I have not completely mapped yet.

modelf-f62-and-f50-on-desk.jpeg (230.67 KiB) Viewed 212940 times