KBC Poker aka "KBC 60%" aka "KBC 40%"

[keyboardlover]

Can somebody check this, I might buy one but I kinda need nkro.

Oh no, not another one of those "Asian dance game" gamers. Where's Moogle?

[sixty]

Can somebody check this, I might buy one but I kinda need nkro.

Oh no, not another one of those "Asian dance game" gamers. Where's Moogle?

I'm pretty sure the board will be n-key over PS2. What I meant when I said I did not test it over PS2 was that I did not test if it will give full n-key rollover. Of course, it would at least provide the same 6+mod as over USB.

[IanM]

Is there an Alt Gr key on this layout? maybe next to Fn on the right hand side?

Also, is there an ISO layout for the UK & EU?

[sixty]

Is there an Alt Gr key on this layout? maybe next to Fn on the right hand side?

Also, is there an ISO layout for the UK & EU?

No to both.

[IanM]

Thanks sixty. How do you type £ and € on these then?

I tend to use the \ key a lot while playing games, so I'm not sure I can live without that extra key anyway, but the prospect of direct EU sales at the moderate price suggested in the interest check thread means that I'm reluctant to rule this out entirely.

[British]

How do you type £ and € on these then?

As long as you define your keyboard as being UK in your OS, the left Alt key will function as Alt Gr.

[db_Iodine]

How do you type £ and € on these then?

As long as you define your keyboard as being UK in your OS, the left Alt key will function as Alt Gr.

You sure it does that? I wouldn't want to miss the normal alt function like that, ever. I actually doubt it won't function as alt gr, just like all my other ANSI keyboards don't. I really need my normal alt function more than I need my alt gr function.

[NewGuy]

For my other keyboards, I have used the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator to change the location of some of the symbols.

I'm used to the Apple UK keyboards where Shift+3 = £ and Alt+3 = #. I haven't had a chance to try out the tools mentioned here yet, but with the MSKBLC you can have Ctrl+Alt+3 = #

It's a real pain that ANSI layouts have less keys than UK/ISO layouts do. I would much rather have the bigger return and shorter shift key which allows for an extra key to the left of Z.

[British]

How do you type £ and € on these then?

As long as you define your keyboard as being UK in your OS, the left Alt key will function as Alt Gr.

You sure it does that? I wouldn't want to miss the normal alt function like that, ever. I actually doubt it won't function as alt gr, just like all my other ANSI keyboards don't. I really need my normal alt function more than I need my alt gr function.

I'm using ANSI-US keyboards, be it at home or at work.
AZERTY keysets and my in my OS the keyboard is FR: Alt Gr is working as intended.

[db_Iodine]

I use ANSI layout keyboards exclusively as well. I just have my layout set to Finnish from operating system and have a few remapped keys. The left Alt key still functions as a normal Alt key, and this is what I would suspect the Pokers Alt key to do as well. Then there's the right Alt key which is changed to function as Alt gr by default.

[IanM]

I'm not sure subbing left Alt for Alt Gr would be any better - different modifiers do different things. Neither is used very frequently, but probably just enough to be inconvenient if they weren't available.

[db_Iodine]

I've logged my keystrokes for a moment here and I've pressed left alt 149 times out of a total keystrokes of 9000. That's quite frequent and I couldn't live without it.

[NewGuy]

You could remap the right Windows key or Context key to AltGr?

[calavera]

I've logged my keystrokes for a moment here and I've pressed left alt 149 times out of a total keystrokes of 9000. That's quite frequent and I couldn't live without it.

How do you monitor keystrokes?

[db_Iodine]

You could remap the right Windows key or Context key to AltGr?

Oh shit. I didn't notice the Poker had two windows keys. Well that's the only complaint I have about it's layout. The fact that it has two windows keys instead of two alt keys. I'm definitely going to remap the right win key as alt gr if I manage to score one or two of these.

How do you monitor keystrokes?

With this: http://skwire.dcmembers.com/wb/pages/so ... ounter.php

[IanM]

Remapping the Windows key to Alt Gr is a much more promising solution...

However, I still want that ISO key next to left shift, and while I'm making wishlists: why can't the right shift be the space saver style to make room for an extra button between Ctrl and Enter? Fn key could go there instead and it would make a more natural cursor key cluster

[daedalus]

I'm not sure subbing left Alt for Alt Gr would be any better - different modifiers do different things. Neither is used very frequently, but probably just enough to be inconvenient if they weren't available.

I use both regularly. Unless you use OS X, I'd imagine you'd be using Alt a lot either way.

Turning left Alt into Alt Gr, as you say, is a terrible idea because it behaves in a different way to regular Alt.

You could remap the right Windows key or Context key to AltGr?

Oh shit. I didn't notice the Poker had two windows keys. Well that's the only complaint I have about it's layout. The fact that it has two windows keys instead of two alt keys. I'm definitely going to remap the right win key as alt gr if I manage to score one or two of these.

Then it conflicts with the magic arrow scheme.

Right Alt should go where it usually goes, and an Fn key be inserted to the right of right Shift, á la HHKB.

[db_Iodine]

I believe this isn't the right place to complain about the layout. I don't think they would change the layout anymore anyway, since the keyboard should be in production already.

Btw, I think you can't remap the Fn key of that keyboard, so that's out of the question.

Edit: I know I'll be able to find some key to act as alt gr for me in this keyboard. It's not necessarily going to be right windows key as it fks up the fn+arrow functions.

[sixty]

Can't remap. Its hardware based, no scancode.

[IanM]

I believe this isn't the right place to complain about the layout...

Why do you think that? if not this thread/forum, where? Surely this is the best place to dissect the relative flaws and merits of this specific product?


I agree it's unlikely that the layout would change now, but the suggestion to move the Fn key and shorten the right shift is constructive criticism, and if it benefits the ANSI layout why wouldn't KBC consider a revised version for a new production run? That change also looks to me to be essential if there is ever a going to be an ISO edition, so why wouldn't we ask for the best possible tool for the job?

[db_Iodine]

The best place would be KBC's own forum. I can almost guarantee they won't be making a ISO layout keyboard, mostly because the Chinese only use ANSI.

[sixty]

Additional layouts are possible, including ISO enter key. Not sure about the short left shift and stuff though. But the ISO enter key is possible, since the Japanese version (which is doable already) uses the same one.

[NewGuy]

Additional layouts are possible, including ISO enter key. Not sure about the short left shift and stuff though. But the ISO enter key is possible, since the Japanese version (which is doable already) uses the same one.

If that's the case, I would be much more interested in a board with a UK/ISO layout which has the taller return and an extra key to the left of Z with a smaller L.Shift.

Remapping either the R.Win or Context key to AltGr would not be an issue for me if it stops functioning as an arrow key, as I would be planning on using WASD for arrows, if I ever needed them. (I can't think of when I last used them) EDIT: Scratch that, of course I use the Arrows in conjunction with Ctrl+Shift for selecting words/editing text without even realising it.

That said, I thought the second layer of keys was done in hardware, not software. Is that not the case?
With the Razer BlackWidow I had briefly, if you used the "gamer mode" which disables the Windows keys, it disabled the physical Windows key, not what was currently mapped to the Windows key in software. (I had moved it)
I would have expected those keys to act as arrow keys when holding down the Fn key regardless of what you mapped the unmodified key to. Could you please test this?

Thinking about the layout of the board more has just made me realise that aero snap with Win+Arrow would be a pain though. You would need to use L.Win+Fn+WASD or L.Win+Fn+Right Modifiers. It would be fine if you could hit R.Win+Fn+WASD, but of course R.Win changes to L.Arrow when holding Fn.

Same goes for things like Alt+F4. (if only Windows used smarter shortcuts like Cmd+W to close windows and Cmd+Q to quit applications like OSX does)


It would be nice if they could do a keyboard with flash memory where you could completely remap the keys and the second function layer in hardware. I can't understand why they would not have chosen Fn+Backspace as Del for example, as is standard with (most?) laptops.


But when you're looking at the low prices you listed for the group buy, I'm willing to make some compromises for one. Nobody has made my ideal keyboard yet (it would be fully backlit with a normal font on the keys for a start…) but this comes pretty close to what I'd want for a compact keyboard.

[IanM]

The best place would be KBC's own forum.

Well I don't agree, sorry. I think any forum discussing any given product should be able to freely highlight any shortcomings for any particular customer. We're not picking on the merits of ISO v. ANSI, it's a question of whether we can make do with the 'wrong' layout because we want the compact size, no one is saying it's a bad product just because it wasn't designed for the EU or other ISO territories.


As far as I can tell, KBC is a brand that started on Chinese or Korean keyboard enthusiast forums? and I'm not sure if they even have started a traditional business? I can't find a website for KBC, only the KBC-China bulletin board. I don't read or write Chinese, and I certainly can't participate in that forum, so here and Geekhack would be the only place I could ask questions and offer feedback.

Additional layouts are possible, including ISO enter key. Not sure about the short left shift and stuff though. But the ISO enter key is possible, since the Japanese version (which is doable already) uses the same one.

left shift (for the ISO extra key) or the right shift (in order to move the Fn key) ?


Are you able to feedback via the KBC forum, OEM or the business founders? I am much more interested if there can be an ISO edition, but I feel that the layout should be modified to fully satisfy ISO i.e. put the extra key and move Fn to fully expose the AltGr, Windows, Menu, Ctrl keys on the bottom row. I could make do with a half fix, but I strongly suspect other users need full access to all of those keys - especially in other language maps that frequently utilise all of the key modifiers.

The physical dimensions should not change, we're looking at a PCB change + a few extra solder points. The production cost difference ought to be relatively trivial, and I imagine almost any ISO layout user interested in this keyboard should be more than willing to pay an extra €5-€15 in order to get the 'proper' functionality.

If the KBC designers aren't interested we'll have to hope that another brand will satisfy, perhaps the OEM building the Poker would be interested?

[webwit]

I think at this point it is realistic to expect that they are only shipping the US layout version and for other stuff you need big numbers and patience in terms of many months. Yes they can do it, if there's a demand and/or a big order. I'm just guessing though. Maybe they are much more flexible.

[IanM]

I think at this point it is realistic to expect that they are only shipping the US layout version and for other stuff you need big numbers and patience in terms of many months.

undoubtedly, I'd expect a long wait of months if a decision were made today, but I would think it will take a while to gauge interest before it even gets a go ahead. If there is hope of an ISO space saver keyboard I'd be prepared to wait.

[webwit]

True, the interest must start somewhere.. LET THIS BE IT

[db_Iodine]

The best place would be KBC's own forum.

Well I don't agree, sorry. I think any forum discussing any given product should be able to freely highlight any shortcomings for any particular customer. We're not picking on the merits of ISO v. ANSI, it's a question of whether we can make do with the 'wrong' layout because we want the compact size, no one is saying it's a bad product just because it wasn't designed for the EU or other ISO territories.

Just trying to say that you can't expect much changes to be made to it if you just discuss them in here. Of course it's okay to point out the problems of the layout to the possible buyers here.

[Victheslik]

For that tenkeyless aluminum case, do you think one could purchase that and remove the board from a pre-existing filco tenkeyless keyboard and plop it into the aluminum case? In theory creating a pseudo 356 keyboard.... if so I might be interested in one of those cases...

[IanM]

Just trying to say that you can't expect much changes to be made to it if you just discuss them in here.

Fair enough I see that the KBC forum has already got links here (and to geekhack + others) so at least someone is watching, and if Sixty or others can highlight this desire for other layouts to KBC then that will be a positive first step.

I never really understood why these space saver layouts aren't more readily available, ones with quality keys anyway. There are plenty of cheap membrane type keyboards, and a few like the Cherry Compact using ML laptop style keys. The demand clearly exists, and I think is only growing as a whole generation now have only experienced laptop, mobile phone and other unconventional style keyboards. Whoever does this first is going to have no competition, so surely there is some incentive?

The Noppoo Choc Mini is another really nice layout, at least it's possible to email Noppoo directly via their website - which I have done, asking about ISO and the German language placeholder button on their frontpage. Maybe a clue that they are planning more sales in the EU?