dvorak layout

[fossala]

One year on, I've stuck with it and now type at around 100wpm.

[forcefollow]

wow, you must type quite a lot...

I'm a former dvorak user, I ditch it after reaching 70~ WPM, but always curious at dvorak comfort at 100-ish, since it uses pinkies a lot.

care to give some insight, fossala?

[bhtooefr]

Out of curiosity, how does the Scientific (DHIATENSOR on the bottom row) layout compare?

(QWERTY user here, though. Especially given that I'm into retrocomputers, layouts other than QWERTY and Dvorak are pretty useless for me, though, without reflashing the keyboard controllers on a bunch of ancient machines. At least the Apple IIs, from the revision B //e and all //cs on, support Dvorak as their alternate layout - //e with a hardware mod, //c out of the box, although the early keyboard controllers have ', ;, and / in non-standard positions due to predating ANSI Dvorak.)

[forcefollow]

@bhtooefr: not sure about what you mean with the 'scientific' layout, but, isn't DHIATENSOR on Blickenderfer's layout?


to date, I've only managed to be able to use only QWERTY, dvorak (this one practically dwindling to unusable after several months not using it), and colemak (used most of the time).

[fossala]

wow, you must type quite a lot...

I'm a former dvorak user, I ditch it after reaching 70~ WPM, but always curious at dvorak comfort at 100-ish, since it uses pinkies a lot.

care to give some insight, fossala?

I found that it is fine, keep thinking about changing to another layout but I can't see any reason too.

[bhtooefr]

Scientific layout was the official name for the Blickensderfer/DHIATENSOR layout.

[forcefollow]

I found that it is fine, keep thinking about changing to another layout but I can't see any reason too.

yeah, me too. I wanted to give arensito/workman and carpalx layout a shot sometimes, but the first weeks of learning new layout is always a nightmare.

Scientific layout was the official name for the Blickensderfer/DHIATENSOR layout.

anybody still using blickensderfer?
that's retro..

[bhtooefr]

I wouldn't be surprised if some people do still use it on the typewriters that shipped with it. (QWERTY was an option on Blicks, though.)

I do think the critical flaw is that bottom row is home row, though.

[Input Nirvana]

An interesting discussion happened on GH about 2 years ago with an original Datahand user (Burro Vida?) that modified his Datahand by filing the bottom keys down to the stems only. It was also his theory that Blickensderfer was superior with Datahand because of the physical interaction of fingers/Datahand. I know I posted links over here so Webwit would chime in.

I started with Dvorak, I liked all the vowels together for some reason, but I went to Colemak and will not consider Dvorak at this point, it would be a step backwards. And I've done the Carplax website thingy...fascinating stuff, I could lose years of my life reviewing the metrics....but I already lose years of my life bantering with you eggheads and dissecting my fleet of Kinesis keyboards.

After the first of the year I hope to have the split and the non-split Kinesis re-assembled and pretty to show the world. And I'll be typing Colemak on them, the official keyboard layout of the 2012 olympics...and beyond.

[cactux]

[Account and posts deleted on request]

[dirge]

Blickensderfer/DHIATENSOR is the coolest sounding thing ever!

[Vierax]

I type on bépo layout, an open source french Dvorak, and the only difficulties I have is the shortcuts but as I was told : "A good software allows you to reconfigure shortcuts. "
So, IMO, Colemak is a result of the laziness of software editor, users who don't want to make config files and corporations which don't allow their employees to make them.

The bottom row is also a difficulty so when I watch stats on the first page of this thread I think Dvorak is easier to use than Colemak even if in the distance the last one is better. It seems easy to learn too because the layout is more logical than qwerty, colemak, dhiatensor, azerty, qwertz…

But the real problem is the design of the keyboard himself : Since the electrical typewriter, columns should be straight as the numpad and why our thumb are so unused ? It's like the qwerty layout and all these variants, the technological inertia's fault.

[bhtooefr]

The problem is that there's very little good software.

Granted, Colemak is only intended to handle the Z/X/C/V block the same as QWERTY, IIRC, so you could always switch to using the CUA standards for cut/copy/paste, instead of Ctrl-X/C/V - CUA standards are Shift-Del, Ctrl-Ins, and Shift-Ins respectively. But, that's not compatible with the very small layouts, and it's not compatible with OS X at all. (Most Windows apps handle it quite well, even today, though - it was the standard up through Windows 3.0, IIRC.)

But, all of that goes into the dedicated function keys vs. modified characters as functions debate. Modified characters as functions helps preserve the QWERTY dominance, but allows for more compact layouts.

The other thing is to use layer remapping, and make Ctrl activate a QWERTY layer.

[forcefollow]

@vierax: well, I don't know anything about software and how they're supposed to be designed/configured, but as a pure user that has used dvorak, my only complain is that it became awkward when typing in high speed (my pinkies tire faster than they do on other layouts).. and that it makes typing in qwerty almost impossible after accustomed to it.

But since I found fossala does not experience the same problem, I guess it's only me :p

@bhtooefr: care to elaborate what small layouts are?

[bhtooefr]

Small layouts such as the HHKB, KBC Poker, that sort of thing. I'll include laptop keyboards too.

[forcefollow]

ah, yes, typing on a HHK, I can see what you mean. thanks bhtooefr

[Icarium]

bhtooefr: CUA standard?

[bhtooefr]

IBM Common User Access.

Was intended to be the user interface standard for everything IBM (including DOS programs and even Windows).

[bhtooefr]

Decided to give Dvorak a spin, after seeing that OS X has a version with QWERTY on Cmd. Sucks when I'm used to 100+ WPM on QWERTY.

[webwit]

Dvorak is inferior to layouts such as colemak, outdated, and no longer relevant. I can't blame the inventor, he had no better tools in his time to intelligently develop a better layout. Such as mass text analysis by computer. What I don't understand is why in 2012 people still pick it. That is just silly.

[cactux]

[Account and posts deleted on request]

[Input Nirvana]

I believe anyone considering an improved layout over QWERTY should look at these:
-Arensito
-CarpalX (the 3 various incarnations)
-Colemak (and possibly the 'improved Colemak')
-Malt (only with Maltron or Kinesis)
-Workman

The main style of keyboard can make a difference as to which layout you may choose. A standard, flat, staggered keyboard, a flat matrix keyboard, a 2 piece split keyboard, a Maltron or Kinesis that each have thumb key clusters....

My reasoning: If you know enough that there are better, easier, healthier alternatives, (and you may NEED to change due to RSI) then you might as well spend about two or three times the amount of time deciding between maybe 2 alternate layouts and throw the whole half dozen into the mix. Once you get the general idea and direction of the different metrics each layout has to offer (which is important), you can think some of it out, and slow-type several passages to get a feel of the metrics (without the benefit of muscle memory). After slow\typing, hopefully the metrics should make more sense and you should be able to make a better decision for yourself. Again, the style of keyboard can be a huge influence and should probably be your first consideration.

It's an important decision, take it seriously. Make the investment. Then commit and don't turn back.

Personal:
I use Colemak. I'm not certain it's 'the best', but it's damn great after Qwerty and works better for me than Dvorak. I'm happy and have no cause to change, but in my best interest, I will take a more serious look at some of the others from the list above. I use a Kinesis, so the Arensito and Malt are possible considerations. I probably wouldn't look at Arensito if I didn't use a Kinesis.

[bhtooefr]

Also, most of my retrocomputers support ONE alternate layout.

That's Dvorak. So, it's either stick with QWERTY, or use Dvorak.

Also, holy crap, the mental gymnastics needed to deal with all the keys moving, and losing the speed that much, SUCKS.

Tempted to try a more gradual approach - custom keymap, and I just swap one pair of keys at a time to its new place, get used to it. Then move another. Then end up typing on full Dvorak.

[Input Nirvana]

Prolonging needlessly.

[Vierax]

Dvorak is inferior to layouts such as colemak, outdated, and no longer relevant. I can't blame the inventor, he had no better tools in his time to intelligently develop a better layout. Such as mass text analysis by computer. What I don't understand is why in 2012 people still pick it. That is just silly.

Indeed Dvorak makes a great job without some computer to do stats but dvorak-based layouts creators do use computer calculation to make layout in their own language with the same process of Dvorak.
Of course DSK is not the best, because of the lacks of comp and because in nearly 100 years a language evolve and the base of texts, the corpus, is not the same than Colemak's.


Isn't it sillier to stay in qwerty in 2012 ? Especially when you know there are better for your fingers and wrists

[webwit]

That was not the point, the point was that if you switch, you shouldn't switch to Dvorak.

[fossala]

I'm giving the maltron layout a go, 20wpm.

[Vierax]

That was not the point, the point was that if you switch, you shouldn't switch to Dvorak.

Well, for French there's less choice but obviously I didn't switch to an old layout as ZHJAY

[suka]

That was not the point, the point was that if you switch, you shouldn't switch to Dvorak.

I can only second that: Before settling on AdNW as my layout of choice I closely followed the discussion of alternative layouts and optimizer software on their newsgroup.

Common consensus there was that Dvorak is a great step forward, especially given the lack of computerized statistical analysis at the time of conception. Colemak was found to be one of the best layouts, especially for English with the given metrics which include finger repetitions, travel and several other factors. Malt was just recently analyzed and received some positive feedback, but its main development parameters (error patterns) were questioned as valid metrics.

Overall, given the amount of optimization that lead to AdNW from neo2 and nordtast it is no surprise that it straight out wins or is at least en par with the best layouts in other analyzers .
But no matter what the statistics say, some of the knowledgeable participants in the optimizing discussion often spotted certain combinations in other very favorable candidates that they exchanged manually for lesser rated ones, arguing that statistics cannot describe in full the "typing flow" achievable on a certain layout. For easier comparison, there was a tool that translated the keypresses of a short piece of text to the letters on Qwerty, so you could start getting a feel for a new layout without actually needing to memorize it....

Whatever - any of the mentioned layouts will be much better than Qwerty anyways, and nobody will regret the switch I guess.

[Input Nirvana]

SUKA:
So true. Metrics are an important and informative overall snapshot of the physical layout that help with various factors, but don't reflect several extremely important aspects of how fingers/hands 'flow' during use.

This is about all you can do to get the idea of what layout can do for you:
-Looking at background of goals of layout
-analyze metrics
-do some metered 'slow-typing' for the physical 'feel' of hand/finger utilization
----consider some of the feedback from forum discussions, but in the end, different layouts will work for different people to a certain degree, and there are of course...opinions, and we know how troublesome THOSE can be

There is still some work that can be done on keyboard layouts, but it may be safe to say that the 'big' jump towards improvement has already been made and future layout improvement will probably be relatively minor. At some point it will be a zero net gain.