IBM RT E57888
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
Got one of these for cheap not too long ago.
It's a Proto-Topre made for IBM, but I'm still not sure of who made it (you may remember the Seikosha keyboard I have that has the same switches). This one was made in 1986, well after Topre started making keyboards, so the plot thickens...
I think it may have been manufactured by Sharp, but this is just a wild guess.
As for the key feel, think 55g Topre like. Key caps are Dye Sub
Parak also has one, but with coloured Dye Subs.
I'll make a USB converter for it eventually, sooner if there is interest.
It's a Proto-Topre made for IBM, but I'm still not sure of who made it (you may remember the Seikosha keyboard I have that has the same switches). This one was made in 1986, well after Topre started making keyboards, so the plot thickens...
I think it may have been manufactured by Sharp, but this is just a wild guess.
As for the key feel, think 55g Topre like. Key caps are Dye Sub
Parak also has one, but with coloured Dye Subs.
I'll make a USB converter for it eventually, sooner if there is interest.
- Half-Saint
- Location: Slovenia, Europe
- Main keyboard: Raptor Gaming K1
- Main mouse: Logitech G5 Mk.2
- Favorite switch: Cherry MX Blue
- DT Pro Member: 0058
How do you keep coming up with such amazing stuff??
- webwit
- Wild Duck
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: Model F62
- Favorite switch: IBM beam spring
- DT Pro Member: 0000
- Contact:
That's pretty interesting. If you ever want to sell it, you know who to contact
- mbodrov
- Location: Moskva, Russia
- Main keyboard: Cherry G80-1853
- Main mouse: Logitech G5
- Favorite switch: MX ErgoClear
- DT Pro Member: -
This is the IBM RT PC workstation keyboard. We had a few at the uni, 26 inch monitors in the 1990s, pretty cool stuff. I still have one of the keyboards, which I picked up when they were throwing it all away. The keys feel GREAT for rubber dome, too bad it isn't compatible with modern computers. This is foam-and-foil capacitive technology, fairly common for the time. I vaguely remember reading that it's Keytronic OEM, so purely an American design with no direct relation to Topre.
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
I don't think it's Keytronic, the PCB design is not even close, and most Keytronic stuff comes out of Spokane Washington (and this was made in Japan).
But yeah, I have no definitive evidence, just stuff pointing towards it being related to Topre keyboards.
My current theory is that Topre hired away the guy that did the original design for this particular keyboard switch.
Well, before I think about selling mine, gotta build a USB converter. Maybe after that though.
I will keep my eyes open though, as they pop up from time to time.
But yeah, I have no definitive evidence, just stuff pointing towards it being related to Topre keyboards.
My current theory is that Topre hired away the guy that did the original design for this particular keyboard switch.
Well, before I think about selling mine, gotta build a USB converter. Maybe after that though.
I will keep my eyes open though, as they pop up from time to time.
- Icarium
- Location: Germany
- Main keyboard: These fields just
- Main mouse: opened my eyes
- Favorite switch: I need to bring stuff to work
- DT Pro Member: -
As usual I will repeat that you should absolutely and always tell us about all your interesting finds which you don't want because you already have them. I acknowledge that this description is inherently contradictory because things you don't want you will not find interesting. Please try anyway.HaaTa wrote:I don't think it's Keytronic, the PCB design is not even close, and most Keytronic stuff comes out of Spokane Washington (and this was made in Japan).
But yeah, I have no definitive evidence, just stuff pointing towards it being related to Topre keyboards.
My current theory is that Topre hired away the guy that did the original design for this particular keyboard switch.
Well, before I think about selling mine, gotta build a USB converter. Maybe after that though.
I will keep my eyes open though, as they pop up from time to time.
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
I tend to chat more about this sorta thing on IRC .
It would be nice having daily logs available here on the forums (webwit, hint hint).
Sadly, for me to give a brain dump of info...it would take days, if not weeks...discussing each of my keyboards. Why it's interesting, or not. I often jump into patent searching too, which gives a different perspective altogether of switch lineage (if there are patents).
I have a few interesting finds sitting right here under my desk, but just haven't gotten a chance to take pictures of them
My current project (building a custom keyboard switch from scratch), has been eating away most of my free time (currently in prototype testing).
It would be nice having daily logs available here on the forums (webwit, hint hint).
Sadly, for me to give a brain dump of info...it would take days, if not weeks...discussing each of my keyboards. Why it's interesting, or not. I often jump into patent searching too, which gives a different perspective altogether of switch lineage (if there are patents).
I have a few interesting finds sitting right here under my desk, but just haven't gotten a chance to take pictures of them
My current project (building a custom keyboard switch from scratch), has been eating away most of my free time (currently in prototype testing).
- mbodrov
- Location: Moskva, Russia
- Main keyboard: Cherry G80-1853
- Main mouse: Logitech G5
- Favorite switch: MX ErgoClear
- DT Pro Member: -
If you make a USB converter for this, you'll be my hero. Like I said, this keyboard is built extremely well and feels great to type on.
Which way are you planning to go with the converter: reverse-engineer the protocol, or build a converter that can poll a capacitive PCB?
Which way are you planning to go with the converter: reverse-engineer the protocol, or build a converter that can poll a capacitive PCB?
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
Usually I just reverse-engineer the protocol as I don't like to modify the keyboard directly unless I absolutely have to.
Now, I may have to, depending. The other keyboard I have like this, only sends signals on press, and the signals are ASCII, so it's really annoying to do modifiers (Ctrl + ALT + K for example).
But to be sure I'll have to sit down and probe it. It's an IBM keyboard so the protocol should be at least sorta sane...I hope.
mbodrov, bug me on IRC every once in a while. I often get side-tracked, and keyboards get dropped to the bottom of my "To make converters for" pile if I lose interest for any sort of reason.
Now, I may have to, depending. The other keyboard I have like this, only sends signals on press, and the signals are ASCII, so it's really annoying to do modifiers (Ctrl + ALT + K for example).
But to be sure I'll have to sit down and probe it. It's an IBM keyboard so the protocol should be at least sorta sane...I hope.
mbodrov, bug me on IRC every once in a while. I often get side-tracked, and keyboards get dropped to the bottom of my "To make converters for" pile if I lose interest for any sort of reason.
- mbodrov
- Location: Moskva, Russia
- Main keyboard: Cherry G80-1853
- Main mouse: Logitech G5
- Favorite switch: MX ErgoClear
- DT Pro Member: -
For future reference, and for the sake of keeping information in one place, I'm going to quote the relevant section from the comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt FAQ (http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~shad ... rdware.txt)
-------------------------
H.12 - What is the pinout of the 6150/6151 Keyboard port?
Here is pin-out and information on an RT keyboard.
More information is available from "IBM RT PC Hardware Technical
Reference" Volume 1 P/N 75X2032, Chapter 9 pages 9-3 thru 9-23,
and from Chapter 5, pages 5-85 thru 5-114.
[ The connector is a AMP type, I don't yet have the P/N of how to get
the parts to construct one. Anybody? - MW ]
Connector Specifications:
(view is looking INTO the female connector socket on the cable attached
to the keyboard)
Microprocessor in keyboard performs following functions:
- Self test at power-on or when requested by system.
- keyboard scanning.
- Buffering of up to four key scan codes.
- Executing the hand-shake protocol requred by each scan code transfer.
- full-duplex serial interface
- communicates with a 8255A PIO chip and a 8501 microprocessor
in the RT planar.
- 11 bit framing protocol.
IBM part numbers for the RT keyboard are:
1392366 Keyboard, United States English.
1392374 Keyboard, United Kingdom English.
1392373 Keyboard, Canadian-French.
Ten other part numbers are listed for other language layout keyboards.
-------------------------
H.13 - Can I use an AT keyboard on an RT?
NO. While most of the signals are the same, there are four
major differences:
1) There is a speaker in the keyboard.
2) The physical connector is not the same.
3) Some of the scan codes are different.
4) Some of the programing commands are not implemented in
the AT keyboard.
Difference 1 and 2 are managable, but 3 and 4 imply some way
is needed to alter the keyboard ROM chips, or basic hardware.
[ ANY input on how to hack a keyboard for RT compatibility is
gladly welcomed! - MW ]
-------------------------[/color]
-------------------------
H.12 - What is the pinout of the 6150/6151 Keyboard port?
Here is pin-out and information on an RT keyboard.
More information is available from "IBM RT PC Hardware Technical
Reference" Volume 1 P/N 75X2032, Chapter 9 pages 9-3 thru 9-23,
and from Chapter 5, pages 5-85 thru 5-114.
[ The connector is a AMP type, I don't yet have the P/N of how to get
the parts to construct one. Anybody? - MW ]
Connector Specifications:
(view is looking INTO the female connector socket on the cable attached
to the keyboard)
Code: Select all
+--------------+ 1 = +5 Volts
| 5 3 1 | 2 = Keyboard Data
| | 3 = Speaker Signal
- 6 4 2 - 4 = Speaker Return (+5V)
| | 5 = Ground
+----------+ 6 = Clock (diagrams in the book seem
to indicate that clock is generated
BY the keyboard)
- Self test at power-on or when requested by system.
- keyboard scanning.
- Buffering of up to four key scan codes.
- Executing the hand-shake protocol requred by each scan code transfer.
- full-duplex serial interface
- communicates with a 8255A PIO chip and a 8501 microprocessor
in the RT planar.
- 11 bit framing protocol.
IBM part numbers for the RT keyboard are:
1392366 Keyboard, United States English.
1392374 Keyboard, United Kingdom English.
1392373 Keyboard, Canadian-French.
Ten other part numbers are listed for other language layout keyboards.
-------------------------
H.13 - Can I use an AT keyboard on an RT?
NO. While most of the signals are the same, there are four
major differences:
1) There is a speaker in the keyboard.
2) The physical connector is not the same.
3) Some of the scan codes are different.
4) Some of the programing commands are not implemented in
the AT keyboard.
Difference 1 and 2 are managable, but 3 and 4 imply some way
is needed to alter the keyboard ROM chips, or basic hardware.
[ ANY input on how to hack a keyboard for RT compatibility is
gladly welcomed! - MW ]
-------------------------[/color]
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
As something to add about the AMP connector, kishy, while talking with him on IRC the other day:
kbdbabel has some info as well. Though in my case I usually just verify the pinout, power the keyboard, then start probing it with a scope and logic analyzer.kishy on irc wrote: what's funny is...it's extremely similar to what Ford used on car stereos with factory amplifiers that connector has a locking tab on it, but it's the same shape and I think it's similar in size, but then I haven't seen the IBM connector in person
- TheQsanity
- Main keyboard: Atm: Das S Ult
- Main mouse: Atm: Razer Lachesies
- Favorite switch: Atm: Brn or Blu. Wanting to try Grn Wht and Clears
- DT Pro Member: -
Does it feel nice? Some people say that Topre are the best. Is this Close, the same, better?
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
I'd say similar. Topre is snappier, but really only on the depress.
I haven't actually used the keyboard to tryout actuations yet. But I'll get to that soon
I haven't actually used the keyboard to tryout actuations yet. But I'll get to that soon
-
- Location: indonesia
- Main keyboard: μtron
- Favorite switch: topre 30g
- DT Pro Member: -
HaaTa, any clue on how topre is involved in this board?
btw, a bit OOT here, you're right about the μtron screws.. I'm in the process of dismantling it now.. sorry it took a long time (and you know how topre boards are loaded with screws on their pcbs ), will post the photos as soon as I got spare time.
btw, a bit OOT here, you're right about the μtron screws.. I'm in the process of dismantling it now.. sorry it took a long time (and you know how topre boards are loaded with screws on their pcbs ), will post the photos as soon as I got spare time.
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
Well, my only clues right now:
Proto-Topre
IBM RT
Seikosha 8620
Topre
Other Capacitive
KeyTronic (various)
BTC
Amkey
Qume
IBM (Model F)
IBM Beam Spring
Inductive
HP 8660C
Like Sliders (Not Topre)
- I have 1 keyboard that was built before Topre started making keyboards http://www.topre.co.jp/company/history.html. Seikosha keyboard made ~1982. Topre started building office equipment in 1986.
- Of all the capacitive matrices I've seen, the IBM RT and Topre are the most similar. See pics below.
- Sliders are very similar, I've really only seen a couple that are also like them.
- I have read no patents (and I have searched) that outline this style of capacitive matrix other than what Topre has for patents, and they do not reference anything that is similar in style to theirs. (at least in the US patents, I still need to search the Japanese patents)
Proto-Topre
IBM RT
Seikosha 8620
Topre
Other Capacitive
KeyTronic (various)
BTC
Amkey
Qume
IBM (Model F)
IBM Beam Spring
Inductive
HP 8660C
Like Sliders (Not Topre)
Last edited by HaaTa on 04 Apr 2013, 16:21, edited 1 time in total.
- 002
- Topre Enthusiast
- Location: Australia
- Main keyboard: Realforce & Libertouch
- Main mouse: Logitech G Pro Wireless
- Favorite switch: Topre
- DT Pro Member: 0002
I am guessing that someone who was involved with creating the switch design seen on this IBM board eventually was employed by Topre and created their capacitive switch, or Topre looked at what was being used in banks and other office environments of the time and chose a design to copy.
The earliest Topre board I have seen is the Sony NEWS NWP-411A which is 1986 but this was not the earliest board they made according to them. They started making boards for banks before this but couldn't get a date or any model numbers from them.
The earliest Topre board I have seen is the Sony NEWS NWP-411A which is 1986 but this was not the earliest board they made according to them. They started making boards for banks before this but couldn't get a date or any model numbers from them.
-
- DT Pro Member: -
Disclaimer - I've never tried actual topre boards, but I'm not much of a fan of my IBM prototopre after the initial impressions. The snapback is either too slow or too fast and hard, which might have something to do with the age of the domes. If topre boards age in the same way, I'll throw an obvious flamebait out there in that I'm not impressed at all and expected more based on the cost and popularity
- mbodrov
- Location: Moskva, Russia
- Main keyboard: Cherry G80-1853
- Main mouse: Logitech G5
- Favorite switch: MX ErgoClear
- DT Pro Member: -
I agree. The RT is smoother, which I actually like, but this is a matter of personal preference, and somebody else may like the crisper feel of Topre.HaaTa wrote:I'd say similar. Topre is snappier, but really only on the depress.
- HaaTa
- Master Kiibohd Hunter
- Location: San Jose, California, USA
- Main keyboard: Depends the day
- Main mouse: CST L-TracX
- Favorite switch: Fujitsu Leaf Spring/Topre/BS/Super Alps
- DT Pro Member: 0006
- Contact:
My minimal investigation of the protocol of the IBM RT shows that it's very PS/2 like (if not exact). So it's less interesting to me, but completely doable. Bug me once I get back to California in September'ish.