Ergodox massdrop groupbuy discussion

[damorgue]

I am basing everything from the massdrop link atm. It shows five cases, three 3D printed cases with different amounts of slant, one labeled Dox's case, and then litster's acrylic one.

I am a bit confused.

[dirge]

Dox only made one himself but did three different designs you're right! So yes 5 would be the total amount of cases made or designed. sorry.

[damorgue]

But there are then four 3D printed cases in the massdrop link and only one acrylic case listed. Well, I suppose it will be clearer once everything begins to happen.

[bisl]

The first three of the Dox cases highlight the difference in the tenting and inclination from Dox's original designs. These are on ergodox.org. According to the description below the image, the fourth option (which shows the dox case from above) is meant to indicate interest in the dox case in general--probably to contrast the litster case--however I agree that with the bottom-specific Dox options the general option is not really necessary.

I would assume that once this is actually a buy and not a poll, there will be no "general" fourth option, as I imagine it would be fairly hard to translate into an order...ha.

[sinis]

"Hello, I'm a registration wall. You may not view these pages, and not view About us or Terms of Service."

croll down?

https://www.massdrop.com/about
https://www.massdrop.com/frequently-asked-questions
http://blog.massdrop.com/
https://www.massdrop.com/privacy
https://www.massdrop.com/terms-of-service


The "you have to register to browse our items" blocker is outrageous. I agree.

[webwit]

Blurred and not clickable.

Spoiler:

[sinis]

try clicking on contact on the first line or klick my links

[judascleric]

Any chance of a making a mold out of the 3D printed case and casting 200 more? It seems like that would be more cost effective that 3D printing 200 cases.

[sinis]

i shoot them this:

This pop-up window, that prevents people from browsing the goods on your website is the most disturbing feature on a website in the whole internet.

Even flash- with loud sounds xyz-advertisement lets you browse the page.

I have yet to see something more useless.

Thank you for this piece of amazing code.

PS: your interwebz sucks!

[webwit]

Thanks for the links, I'll let you know when my lawyer has finished reading the terms of service.

For what they are worth...

Spoiler:

We may change or discontinue the Site or any of the Services at any time without prior notice. We reserve the right to terminate this Agreement at our election and for any reason, without prior notice

[judascleric]

To summarize the original Mass Drop discussion:

This group buy will involve up to 150 buyers and up to 200 keyboard kits with multiple options. Depending on options, each kit will cost $50 - $300. Someone will have to collect money, make purchases from 4-6 suppliers, pack and ship 150 kits.

This probably involves 20-40 hours of work.

The amount of money involved is around $20,000 - $40,000. The consensus has been that an escrow should be setup with multiple co-signing administrators to keep the money from walking off.

There is a chicken and egg problem with the vendor orders. Unit price depends on the order size, but the order can't be placed until the money is collected. If the estimated order is near the boundary of unit discount, the person(s) collecting the money necessarily charge the more expensive price when collecting the money and refund everyone if it crosses into the next tier of volume discount.

No one has stepped forward wanting to take this responsibility on. MassDrop allows the group buy to move forward in the absence of volunteers.

[webwit]

Why give 40k to registration walled site where the terms of service clearly give you the finger? That isn't a good company. Will you give me 40k if we arrange that I can change the terms at any time or walk off whenever I like?

[AloisiusFauxly]

If you who think it's not that much work and that Massdrop doesn't provide value, does that mean you're volunteering to handle sourcing, logistics, and payment? And you'll cover the cost of ordering all of these parts, or convince people to send you money before you've ordered everything? Good stuff!

[AloisiusFauxly]

Why give 40k to registration walled site where the terms of service clearly give you the finger? That isn't a good company. Will you give me 40k if we arrange that I can change the terms at any time or walk off whenever I like?

Do you live in a country where you don't get consumer protection from the law? IAMAL, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that they'd be fucked if they folded without reimbursing any current orders first.

Also, consider that they seem to be doing pretty well so far and that in the long term it's in their best interests to keep running group buys for profits rather than building to a $40k group buy and then committing fraud. It just doesn't seem like a logical course of action.

Also, that section you quoted about terminating the service at any time is boilerplate web code and is mostly there to protect a site from people trying to sue them for wanting to legitimately shut down the site in a proper way without dicking anyone over.

[webwit]

I'm not impressed by corporate apologists. You make an effort to defend bad aspects of this company, I just find that very strange. So will you give me 40k if we arrange that I can change the terms at any time or walk off whenever I like? (Which is just boilerplate so I cannot be ripped off by you.)

[AloisiusFauxly]

And I'm not impressed by ducks with tinfoil hats. Do you honestly think they're just running a scam here?

[justcallmecrash]

I think I would be pretty impressed by a duck with a tinfoil hat... that duck would get extra bread crumbs.

[webwit]

Now you're resorting to mere ad hominem attacks. Let's stick to arguments. You didn't provide counter arguments to mine.

If you use a 3rd party service like that, you are the customer, the client. You give them 40k, you make sure your rights are covered. It is -they- who have to deliver, not you. You are the paying customer, your rights must be covered. This contract they propose gives you, the customer, the finger, and only covers their rights, at the expense of your rights. That is game over. You wouldn't give me a loan under these conditions. You wouldn't buy a car under these conditions. Yet you like massdrop. These terms also state that if you have a problem with them not caring about your rights and giving you the finger, you should not use their service. I agree, and that is settled then. Would have contemplated if they didn't have a registration wall and offered a two-sided contract which also covered my side, not one-sided. Not only is that wrong on its own merit, it also means it is inherently a bad company which cannot be trusted, and which won't get my money. I give the finger back.

Now tell me about your battle against consumer rights. Tin foil hat and all, these rights? Because... only companies may have rights?

[AloisiusFauxly]

Now you're resorting to mere ad hominem attacks. Let's stick to arguments.

Might I remind you that you called me a "corporate apologist"?


1. Consumer rights don't need to be in the contract in order to protect you as a consumer from a business.
2. You are not a business, you are a private citizen, and it would make it much harder to get my money back from you if the deal went south.
3. I don't like the registration wall either and think it's bad UI, but here's a direct link to their ToS so you can read it before you even sign up to the site, let alone commit to buy.
4. They have a reason for the registration wall and that's to get around the fact that some manufacturers stipulate a minimum advertised price. By putting up a reg wall, they make the site a "members only" site and it doesn't fall under that rule and they can give deeper discounts because of that. So it's NOT a sign of a shady company, just shitty regulations.

I don't care if you don't like it - I just don't like the FUD you're spreading. You're like the Fox News of this group buy.

[litster]

4. They have a reason for the registration wall and that's to get around the fact that some manufacturers stipulate a minimum advertised price. By putting up a reg wall, they make the site a "members only" site and it doesn't fall under that rule and they can give deeper discounts because of that. So it's NOT a sign of a shady company, just shitty regulations.

Not buying this. There are a lot of online shops that would let you see the actual discounted price if you add the item to the shopping cart, without creating an account first. Do you know this for a fact this is the actual and only reason they put up a reg wall? I can think of a few other reasons why they have a reg wall. Not saying they are shady. Just saying I don't think this is the one and only reason.

[AloisiusFauxly]

No, I have no idea if that's the sole reason, but I can't really think of any truly shady reasons. The only one I can think is user acquisition numbers and/or marketing reach. What reasons do you have in mind?

The Massdrop subreddit has the following on the sidebar, but it's far from an "official" source:

Q) Do I have to make an account on massdrop?
A) Fortunately/unfortunately, yes. By making all of its users sign up, Massdrop can legally be classified as something other than a retailer, meaning that the manufacturers have no say in how Massdrop prices the items. This allows the site to sell things at a lower price (-15% for 20% fewer people on the Bitfenix alchemy cables)

Maybe California/US laws have something specific about the action of a user adding an item to a "shopping cart", which wouldn't apply to the MD model so they had to go with an up-front reg wall.

I hate hate HATE signing up for more things on the web than I need to, so I feel the pain of yet another signup process. I think it would be a much better user experience if they went the price-on-cart route where the prices were just hidden until the user logged in, but I'm not in a position to dictate how they operate.

If only I had design/interface input on any website... a web developer can dream.

[hoggy]

What's to stop us asking for changes to the contract before handing over a ton of cash?

[7bit]

What's to stop us running it ourselves?

All other keyboard group buys where and will be organised by ourselves.

Why doesn't it work with the ErgoDox?

The advantages:
- Money collection can be distributed accross more than one person (lower chance that something gets wrong with the money).
- Prices are cheaper because Massdrop can't get better prices than us (they are focussed to car parts, not heavily focussed on PCB production etc.) and will want to earn money instead of just covering their costs and labor.
- Massdrop does have 0 experience with keyboards.
- Even worse: They have no experience with products which where created for that group buy. They always ordered ready products.
- plus an un-sympathetic website with an un-sympathetic ToS.

[AloisiusFauxly]

Time and time again: who is going to run it? No one has stepped up.

Yes, a service like MD will want to earn money from the sale but if no one is volunteering to run this buy, then might as well pay someone to get it done so it just happens.

[webwit]

Might I remind you that you called me a "corporate apologist"?

How is this factually incorrect?

1. Consumer rights don't need to be in the contract in order to protect you as a consumer from a business.
2. You are not a business, you are a private citizen, and it would make it much harder to get my money back from you if the deal went south.
3. I don't like the registration wall either and think it's bad UI, but here's a direct link to their ToS so you can read it before you even sign up to the site, let alone commit to buy.
4. They have a reason for the registration wall and that's to get around the fact that some manufacturers stipulate a minimum advertised price. By putting up a reg wall, they make the site a "members only" site and it doesn't fall under that rule and they can give deeper discounts because of that. So it's NOT a sign of a shady company, just shitty regulations.

I don't care if you don't like it - I just don't like the FUD you're spreading. You're like the Fox News of this group buy.

They are the ones having a registration wall and terms which are simply illegal in the EU. I react to that. This is not FUD or Fox, asshole. Actually, you are attacking me, because I don't like your massdrop.

[AloisiusFauxly]

Might I remind you that you called me a "corporate apologist"?

How is this factually incorrect?

See this definition which fits what I would consider a "corporate apologist". Show me where I'm acting like that. We're having a debate about a specific small service provider. I'm not taking a pro-capitalist, anti-socialist stance. Ergo, baseless ad hominem.

They are the ones having a registration wall and terms which are simply illegal in the EU. I react to that. This is not FUD or Fox, asshole. Actually, you are attacking me, because I don't like your massdrop.

I'm attacking your worries, which are baseless and a bit silly in my opinion. Why would a company that's ostensibly doing well acting as a middle man want to jeopardize that by defrauding people on one group buy? It just doesn't add up. That's why I ordered some switches from 7-bit even though I had been here for such a short time. I made the assumption that his reputation on this site and maybe a small profit were worth more to him than my $60 and 80 switches and my raising hell on the board (great service btw, 7-bit).

Massdrop came to my attention through this group buy discussion. I think they're legit. I placed my trust in them on the headphone amplifier group buy, so we'll see if they make good on that.

Terms of Service in North America almost never have anything to protect the consumer, because the overarching laws cover us in the majority of cases, while the ToS protects the business. If they want to remain in business, they won't defraud people. I don't know how far $40k would even go toward lawyers' fees to defend themselves in court if they did.

Do you think they are going to defraud people? Answer me that.

The tone of your posts about Massdrop reek of fear, uncertainty and doubt.

[damorgue]

I don't think they plan to "defraud". But if something does not go perfectly according to plan, then problems will arise. Since they were never meant to do something like this, as previously pointed out, we can almost expect this to be problematic. In case of problems, they are not liable in any way. Also consider that we are all spread across the world and supporting each one will be close to impossible in such a case where something goes wrong. They also seem far less flexible than one of us.

We are sometimes also able to get discounts from members on certain parts because they work with them, have easy access etc.

We are prevented by ToS from doing anything in the case of problems, and this is further emphasized by the spread across different nations. Sweden happens to have quite decent laws in regards to customer protection, it is null and void when buying from outside of Sweden as I have experienced before.

[AloisiusFauxly]

I don't think they plan to "defraud". But if something does not go perfectly according to plan, then problems will arise. Since they were never meant to do something like this, as previously pointed out, we can almost expect this to be problematic. In case of problems, they are not liable in any way. Also consider that we are all spread across the world and supporting each one will be close to impossible in such a case where something goes wrong.

We are sometimes also able to get discounts from members on certain parts because they work with them, have easy access etc.

Sure, that's a valid concern. This being their first foray into multi-part buys, they don't have a track record. I don't see why they couldn't do it though. It seems like (and I don't know the service very well) they were created to make money as the middlemen of organizing group buys. They told bisl they might have ideas for the case, which at least shows an interest in the project. And I'm sure if it's not to people's satisfaction, no one will buy it and there's no skin off anyone's nose. Except Massdrop, but it'll be a learning experience for them I'm sure.

Yeah, I can easily see forum members getting cheaper prices on things because they already have established relationships with keybo/part manufacturers. But again, no forum member has stepped up and said they will be a part of running a group buy.

I don't care who provides the services. A forum member, Massdrop, or even barfy Kate Middleton. Just that it gets done.

[AloisiusFauxly]

We are prevented by ToS from doing anything in the case of problems, and this is further emphasized by the spread across different nations. Sweden happens to have quite decent laws in regards to customer protection, it is null and void when buying from outside of Sweden as I have experienced before.

That's too bad. I know international law is complicated, but I wish we could all just all get together and draft something to the effect of "Everyone: don't be an asshole. If you're an asshole, you're going to get fucked."

[webwit]

I'm attacking your worries, which are baseless and a bit silly in my opinion.

Oh fuck off. I'm done with you and your masscrap.