Ergodox massdrop groupbuy discussion

[Vierax]

IIRC, they're pull-down/up resistors for the I2C communication between the halves.

Oh I see, it's for the I/O extender ! Thanks for the answer.
The two hands of my own splitted KB are naively wired with an HDMI cable : the Ø diameter is thinner than a DVI or an EU-SCART but still bigger and less flexible than a two-wired mass-braided cable.

Yes I'm as insane as the bépo layout

[Jim66]

I have no idea what's going on here anymore.

There's a group buy happening at Massdrop ... ... ...

To summarize a little differently:

From a practical standpoint, we have:

• 7bit might organize a group buy later; if he does it will be more configurable and less expensive, but take much longer to ship.
• Massdrop is organizing a group buy now; it's less configurable than we'd like (though, they seem to be fixing the most important parts of that) and a little more expensive, but it's shipping soon after the buy closes in ~18 days.

Splitting the buy raises the price for everyone, but waiting another ... how long? ... for 7bit's tentative buy isn't something I'd willingly do, given other options. Of course, paying a commercial company to organize for us appears to be something various other people won't willing do, given the prospect of other options. So I don't see any other way about it.

FWIW, since visitors may not have the advantage of reading so far back, and there's been a lot of negative Massdrop sentiment lately, I may as well say that I think they've shown a lot of good faith:

• They built a prototype to check their suppliers, and post pictures for us (I'm sure this was in their best interest too, but it's still pleasant)
• They wrote directions for us (which I really was hoping someone besides me would do)
• They updated their TOS (perhaps in direct response to comments in this thread)
• They've been adding options, as they indicated they would, to the group buy posting
• They've been responding promptly to the emails of several users who have reported back here

Only 14 people have committed to buy at the moment, but if I'm not way too atypical, I'm sure that will increase: I'm just waiting till they post all the options I want before I officially register to buy. Then again, even if they don't change their options any more than they have, I'll still buy at least 1 kit... since that would be easier and more fun than desoldering the blues from the prototype ErgoDox I already have to put browns in when mine come.

Also FWIW, I do feel sorry for everyone in Europe, with shipping costs so much higher, etc. Wish there was something we could do about that, but I can't think of any suggestions everyone would like.

Perfect, thanks for the update. I can't afford right now so I guess I haven't really got much of an option; I'll have to wait for the DT group buy (assuming that there will be one).

[richie]

Think I'll order one or two depending on the aluminium case.
What I really want to know is there anyone in the UK/EU willing to do the assembly?

[ic07]

Think I'll order one or two depending on the aluminium case.
What I really want to know is there anyone in the UK/EU willing to do the assembly?

(Not that I can help with assembly, but I was just thinking:) Is the UK/EU restriction only because of shipping costs? Because it seems like your total shipping wouldn't be that different going from Massdrop -> UK/EU -> you than from Massdrop -> US -> you, since shipping will be free within the US... :)

[SubGothius]

I opted out of the key switches so far, because I wanted to get brown switches.

I noticed a discrepancy in the Massdrop page re: switches where they mention, "There are five types of switches available for the ErgoDox", but if you [click here for more info on the individual switch types], the expanded section only illustrates/explains three types: blacks, blues, and clears. I'm guessing the "five types" is leftover from when they previously expected browns/reds would be readily available? Going by 7bit's current Cherry MX GB, it appears availability of browns and reds should improve this month (likely due to production-run scheduling at Cherry).

Also, Massdrop's parts list mentions "Cherry Switches (84pc)", but the ErgoDox only requires 76 switches (or 80 if you want 2 single keys in place of each 2x-wide key); is that another typo, or are they really providing 8 extra switches?

[ic07]

From the buy page:

As for quality control, we’ve done a few things to help make sure that everything goes smoothly for this kit. We’ll be including a few extra switches, diodes, extra LEDs, and resistors ... ... ...

If you're worried about the exact number, you may wish to email them, but it looks like they will be including extra :)

[mikelanding]

I opted out of the key switches so far, because I wanted to get brown switches.

Also, Massdrop's parts list mentions "Cherry Switches (84pc)", but the ErgoDox only requires 76 switches (or 80 if you want 2 single keys in place of each 2x-wide key); is that another typo, or are they really providing 8 extra switches?

I think they included extra switches in case buyer screw up during the built

[hdss]

What users are interested at a buy without using massdrop? Myself, I wait for a better deal. Not meant arrogant.
Some reasons;
- brown switches are not available, I want those because blue makes a lot of noise and not suited well for gaming. brown is less risk
- platemounted, preference for durability
- no keycaps
- shipping costs, though they are reasonable, not all parts are included, two extra shipments plus customs clearance? too pricy

In short, preferably complete kit for a reasonable price, like md offers. Assembled would be even more awesome if that is an option.

If I had more knowledge and a bit more time, I would want to helpout with a buy. Because I lack this, I wait till hopefully an able person picks it up. Waiting for now, who else does?

[AloisiusFauxly]

The Massdrop design is based off of litster's design, which has a mounting plate.

7bit might do a GB later, and someone in the US could do a GB of the other Massdrop(s) to make complete kits to save on shipping costs. MD has free shipping to the US, so it wouldn't add any cost other than time.

[litster]

someone please ask massdrop what legs are used. My drawing has holes on the bottom plate so you can screw in something. If you are ordering, you should at least find out what legs are under the keyboard. Use my design at your own risk. I am not responsible for the end product.

[asura]

Having asked about PCB only, I received this response

"The best way to do this is to have you check out normally and notify one of our live chat reps so they can put a note on the transaction saying to only collect payment for the PCB ($44 shipped to your door).

Let me know what works best for you,

- Will"

They really do seem to be bending over backwards, of-course I'll probably still have the $20 shipping, being in the UK, but people who want the PCB only and now, can get it.

[dirge]

I'd ask whether the pcbwing price is cheaper direct. It's euro based anyway. Sure a few others in the UK would be willing to do a small group buy.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

I'd ask whether the pcbwing price is cheaper direct. It's euro based anyway. Sure a few others in the UK would be willing to do a small group buy.

Been wondering this, too. Also why no one with a little knowledge of PCBs didn't do this earlier

[7bit]

I'd ask whether the pcbwing price is cheaper direct. It's euro based anyway. Sure a few others in the UK would be willing to do a small group buy.

PCB was $35. The ErgoDox PCB is smaller, so it would cost a bit less so I think $22 per PCB (around twice as many Phantoms) should be more than OK.

[webwit]

So if shipping to the US is free and shipping to the world is not, this means it's a US-centered service where people from Europe subsidize free US shipping?

[vivalarevolución]

So if shipping to the US is free and shipping to the world is not, this means it's a US-centered service where people from Europe subsidize free US shipping?

I imagine the shipping costs are factored into the total cost of the product, not by other buyers in foreign countries. For every country, they have to be including some of the shipping costs in the total cost of the product. $6 shipping to Canada? Not the real cost. It would take more than $6 to ship this produce from California (where Massdrop seems to be based) to my home 2000 miles away. If anybody has ever shipped a keyboard across the Atlantic here, you know that packages of keyboard size are going to cost more than $20. And every country is not going to have the same shipping rate.

Massdrop probably figured how much shipping they could hide in the total cost of the product with each country. They certainly can't eat the whole cost of shipping to Sweden, for example, but they can when they ship domestically.

Bottom line, I don't the EU folks are subsidizing anybody else's shipping. I don't know how much free shipping goes on in the EU, but in the USA a lot of websites offer free shipping if buy, for example, $100 worth of products.

[webwit]

So if shipping to the US is free and shipping to the world is not, this means it's a US-centered service where people from Europe subsidize free US shipping?

I imagine the shipping costs are factored into the total cost of the product, not by other buyers in foreign countries. For every country, they have to be including some of the shipping costs in the total cost of the product. $6 shipping to Canada? Not the real cost. It would take more than $6 to ship this produce from California (where Massdrop seems to be based) to my home 2000 miles away. If anybody has ever shipped a keyboard across the Atlantic here, you know that packages of keyboard size are going to cost more than $20. And every country is not going to have the same shipping rate.

Massdrop probably figured how much shipping they could hide in the total cost of the product with each country. They certainly can't eat the whole cost of shipping to Sweden, for example, but they can when they ship domestically.

Bottom line, I don't the EU folks are subsidizing anybody else's shipping. I don't know how much free shipping goes on in the EU, but in the USA a lot of websites offer free shipping if buy, for example, $100 worth of products.

Yada yada, you are presuming there's a similar yet unmentioned reduction on worldwide shipping costs. It all boils down to whether that's the case or not.

[BugBuster]

As an example you can check shipping rates for Truly Ergonomic http://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/ind ... ation_id=6
So I would imagine that something around $30 is hidden inside the product price and it might be the other way around - that US buyers subsidize international shipping.

[AloisiusFauxly]

webwit, you're right in that we don't know the true price of shipping and shouldn't presume. It might be the US subsidizing EU shipments, or it might be the EU subsidizing the US shipping. Without calculating true shipping costs, there's no way to pass judgement either way.

[sordna]

In this GH thread, the guy who runs Massdrop gives lots of good info on why the site requires registration and such:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=35549.0

I decided to register (without facebook needless to say) and it's not bad at all, all it needs is your email adrdess, and you can use any userid as your name. You don't have to supply a full name and address until you are actually ordering in which case you need to provide payment information.

[sordna]

So if shipping to the US is free and shipping to the world is not, this means it's a US-centered service where people from Europe subsidize free US shipping?

Webwit, they are based in the US, so naturally it costs more to ship elsewhere.
Frankly, when the project started back in 2011, the estimated cost was $400.

Now we are about to get this keyboard for $200, and $20 shipping for Europe is really cheap!
The way I see it, shipping in the US might be $10-$20 and shipping to Europe might be $30-$40
so they are actually giving a good discount on shipping to all of us, and in fact Europe might be getting the bigger discount on the shipping. You are thinking way too negatively all around this project

Honestly, getting this keyboard in Europe for ~ 165 euros *shipped* is a FANTASTIC deal, I really wish you start seeing this in the proper light, and help promote the ErgoDox effort and the group buy like it deserves to be promoted.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

Anyone from Germany getting those and wants to proxy two (one set) of the PCBs for me?
(Or if someone wants to make a separate order for pcb only I'm in.......)

[BugBuster]

What is the weight of one ErgoDox PCB? Can anyone having it already measure it?
Trying to understand if two boards will fit into a single cheap letter where max weight is 250g, so I could help those in EU needing just boards.

[judascleric]

I sent MassDrop an email asking if I could get just a set of PCBs and a case since I had the other components already. They got back to me over the weekend saying that it was possible and would run me $124 for acrylic and $189 for aluminum. They won't change the options on the buy page, but Will @massdrop said he would put a note on my order for the final purchase to reflect that price.

Assuming the PCBs are running $44/pair and $10-$20 shipping, that means $60-70 for the acrylic case. That's ok. It's in the ballpark of what I figured it would cost to make it myself. Better yet, it saves me the $100+ in components that I already had and didn't want to repurchase.

[AloisiusFauxly]

Just got a reply from Will @ MD when I asked about just a case or just the PCBs:

Let me know exactly want then checkout as you would normally. Once you checkout and tell me, I can put a note on that transaction saying what you want and you'll be charged the right amount. The case is $80 by itself and the PCB is $44.

[rknize]

FWIW, I feel that the MD approach deserves a pass as a GB to see how it goes. They are a start up and they are learning. They put a lot of work into it already, so I ordered one. If it goes well, we will probably be typing on them and have moved on to the next thing before we even see R4, let alone ErgoDox R2 (sorry 7bit .

Having been on the money-collecting side of a complicated GB before, the old approach to doing these does not scale in the U.S. anymore. I'm hoping to fly under the radar, but I think some GB runners are going to be in for a nasty surprise this Spring. I know at least one person that got bit big time last year.

[webwit]

Not only paypal makes it harder, but on top of that the commercial services which try to penetrate hobby forums and compete with members. Wait.

[AloisiusFauxly]

I'm hoping to fly under the radar, but I think some GB runners are going to be in for a nasty surprise this Spring. I know at least one person that got bit big time last year.

I hope that they could demonstrate that it was a GB and not done for profit as a business. But even if they could, I imagine it's still a major hassle to go through that.

[AloisiusFauxly]

Not only paypal makes it harder, but on top of that the commercial services which try to penetrate hobby forums and compete with members. Wait.

In this case it's not a competition, as no one else was running a group buy. Massdrop stepped in to provide a service to members of these communities. Why not be glad for the members of DT/GH who will finally get an Ergodox kit after all this time?

[rknize]

I understand your concerns, especially given your geographical location. It leaves an odd taste in my mouth as well. I am not too concerned by this yet, especially given how easily a commercial vendor can become scorned by a community after just one bad experience. Some of the community's GB's were/are pretty hairy, so I can only imagine what would happen if a vendor like MD would have been at the heart of one of the bad ones.

MD is trying to fill what they perceive as a vacuum. The market will decide if the vacuum is real or not. A few other small enterprises have popped-up to serve the key cap market. We'll see how they survive. Things will inevitably go wrong. When they do, the key will be how well MD communicates and make sure problems are taken care of. Only time will tell.