Ergodox massdrop groupbuy discussion

sordna · 26 Jan 2013, 17:01

149 sold! I wonder if they will give us another price break at 150... if anyone is planning to order and didn't do it yet, now is the time to do it!

Merijn · 26 Jan 2013, 18:03

I don't think they'll lower any prices. At the discussion page they seem to ignore questions about the 150 mark. I do hope for another drop, but the chances are very slim.

sordna · 26 Jan 2013, 18:12

Well, they did say "it's awfully close" (to 150) so it gives me a little bit of hope that they might do something.
I wish they drop the PCB price for those who order extra PCBs with a keyboard...
Anyway, so far I have ordered 1 keyboard (full hand acrylic case). without switches or extra PCBs.

Merijn · 26 Jan 2013, 19:26

Aaand we hit 150 without drop. Totally expected.

litster · 26 Jan 2013, 20:28

any picture of the bottom of the case yet? I want to see how they made the legs work, or not.

gorkypl · 26 Jan 2013, 20:33

One quick question: should I get the ErgoDox or rather the Kinesis Advantage?

I guess the main advantage of Kinesis is the ergonomic case, with the 'wells' for both hands. On the other hand, both ErgoDox halves can be aligned freely with any distance between them, but the halves themselves are flat.

So, any advices?

rodtang · 26 Jan 2013, 20:54

gorkypl wrote:One quick question: should I get the ErgoDox or rather the Kinesis Advantage?

I guess the main advantage of Kinesis is the ergonomic case, with the 'wells' for both hands. On the other hand, both ErgoDox halves can be aligned freely with any distance between them, but the halves themselves are flat.

So, any advices?

Sounds like you want to saw a Kinesis in two.

gorkypl · 26 Jan 2013, 21:01

I saw this project some time ago. But this is not an option for now

bisl · 26 Jan 2013, 23:05

gorkypl wrote:One quick question: should I get the ErgoDox or rather the Kinesis Advantage?

I guess the main advantage of Kinesis is the ergonomic case, with the 'wells' for both hands. On the other hand, both ErgoDox halves can be aligned freely with any distance between them, but the halves themselves are flat.

So, any advices?

For what it's worth, I plan on placing gel mats on top of the wrist rest extensions on litster's larger case in order to raise my hands up a little more to simulate the keywell effect of a kinesis. I know the keys won't be contoured (beyond DCS row profiling, anyway) but at least it approximates a more natural shape for the wrist/hand.

litster wrote:any picture of the bottom of the case yet? I want to see how they made the legs work, or not.

They did include the screwholes you included on your design, I believe. They had rubber screw caps in the photos from the assembly (you can see them in the photos next to the screws--they're rounded red cones) but these aren't part of the buy.

I knew where they got these at some point, but I can't for the life of me find the email that detailed them. I fear it might have been in a transient chat or something. I think it started with a Mc, like McDougall or something. Sound familiar to anyone?

rodtang · 26 Jan 2013, 23:10

bisl wrote:
gorkypl wrote: like McDougall or something. Sound familiar to anyone?

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/mcd ... t2316.html ?

TheProfosist · 27 Jan 2013, 00:56

Im sure many of you are capable but if you dont want to or cant assemble your ErgoDox my assembly service is now up on Massdrop. Please let me know if you have any questions.

litster · 28 Jan 2013, 05:56

I have only seen pictures on here. I didn't sign up for a MD account. As far as I am concerned, you are ordering ergodox with case with no legs.

Also, when I designed the case, I didn't account for conductivity with acrylic

. Didn't need to. Now the same design is made with metal. I can't tell from the outside how thick the mounting plate is or how many layers make up the mounting plate layer. It if it is too thick, it could touch the PCB.

Be careful with your ergodox if you order a metal case. I am not responsible for any damage

bisl · 28 Jan 2013, 07:46

litster wrote:I have only seen pictures on here. I didn't sign up for a MD account. As far as I am concerned, you are ordering ergodox with case with no legs.

Also, when I designed the case, I didn't account for conductivity with acrylic . Didn't need to. Now the same design is made with metal. I can't tell from the outside how thick the mounting plate is or how many layers make up the mounting plate layer. It if it is too thick, it could touch the PCB.

Be careful with your ergodox if you order a metal case. I am not responsible for any damage

It's not even just as far as you're concerned; the ergodoxen are not shipping with legs. Technically the ones they used shouldn't be in the pictures since they're not included in the parts.

Also, it's an interesting point you raise about the conductivity. I've passed it along to them, as I believe they've been using their prototypes pretty extensively in-house just because they like them. I'm curious if they've run into these issues.

mSSM · 28 Jan 2013, 12:41

I am bit sad the ErgoDox from MD doesn't have legs/feet.

Is the case actually prepared to screw them in, or do we have to glue? What would you guys recommend to redeem that situation?

IanM · 28 Jan 2013, 14:44

wow, I am extremely late to this and there's only a few hours to go on the massdrop buy! I'll see if I can find answers in the thread, but as time is pressing would anybody be able to answer the following questions?

1) is there definitely going to be an EU group buy for this?

2) how long is the hand rest on the full length case?

3) are backlit keys an option?

4) does the controller support 500hz/1000hz ultrapolling for gamers?

5) if no ultrapolling what might be required to implement this as a feature? would it require an alternative controller?

6) why do some people hate massdrop?

hoggy · 28 Jan 2013, 14:50

Since you're in a hurry...

1) is there definitely going to be an EU group buy for this?
Couldn't say
2) how long is the hand rest on the full length case?
You should be able to get a rough idea from the photos - spacing between switches is .75 inches.
3) are backlit keys an option?
No.
4) does the controller support 500hz/1000hz ultrapolling for gamers?

5) if no ultrapolling what might be required to implement this as a feature? would it require an alternative controller?
I could be wrong, but I doubt you'd ever notice the difference. Don't worry about it.
6) why do some people hate massdrop?[/quote]
Terms and conditions wouldn't be legal in the EU.

7) should I buy it?
If you need/want an ergo keyboard then yes. If you're just after a gaming keyboard then it's a matter of personal taste.

IanM · 28 Jan 2013, 15:16

I don't actually need an ergo (I don't usually get cramp or RSI problems) but it looks very interesting.

For gaming purposes it looks better than any of those control pads that are available and I don't really fancy a seperate gaming pad anyway because I like to be free of excess clutter wherever possible. Ultrapolling isn't the be all and end all, but I've thought for a long time my next mechanical keyboard would have it. 125hz -> 500hz is worthwhile when comparing with a mouse, 500hz->1000hz is not so noticeable.

Backlit keys are not vital to me, although I thought it might be nice to try and add some later, although I suppose is also needs a set of custom keycaps as well to do so.

Ho hum, a few hours to make a decision...

planet36 · 28 Jan 2013, 15:19

litster wrote:As far as I am concerned, you are ordering ergodox with case with no legs.

Do you mean that legs are supposed to be under the bottom layer (touching the ground), or between the PCB and the bottom layer?

Icarium · 28 Jan 2013, 15:30

"Ultrapolling" sounds like a Razer marketing stunt and about as useful as gold plated cable connectors. Are there any studies that show that somebody's performance improved using ultrapolling? I mean ANY. Even a couple of progamer stats are better than nothing...

sordna · 28 Jan 2013, 16:16

IanM: No backlight support

planet36: Legs are supposed to go under the case, ie so it doesn't slip around on your desk, but it's easy to get many kinds of rubber feet and glue or screw them onto the case.

damorgue · 28 Jan 2013, 17:42

So in response to people calling them out on their TOS, they changed it. I read the new one and some of it still worries me.

You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless Massdrop.com, its parent company, officers, directors, employees and agents, from and against any and all claims, damages, obligations, losses, liabilities, costs or debt, and expenses (including but not limited to reasonable attorney's fees) arising from: (i) your use of and access to Massdrop.com; (ii) your violation of any term of these Terms of Service; (iii) your violation of any third party right, including without limitation any copyright, property, or privacy right; or (iv) any claim that any Content submitted by you causes damage to a third party. This defense and indemnification obligation will survive these Terms of Service and your use of Massdrop.com.

We are to obey and protect them in case of problems

YOUR SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE REMEDY FOR ANY DISPUTE WITH US IS TO DISCONTINUE YOUR USE OF MASSDROP.COM.

In the case of a dispute, your only option is to fuck off.

You hereby waive California Civil Code Section 1542 (if you are a California resident), and any similar provision in any other jurisdiction (if you are a resident of such jurisdiction), which states: "A general release does not extend to claims which the creditor does not know or suspect to exist in his favor at the time of executing the release, which, if known by him must have materially affected his settlement with the debtor."

If a problem occurs which they couldn't foresee, they can't be held liable for it

So far, there have been a couple of problems which have occurred and they have fixed. I wonder if they will still be cooperative after the buy if an issue like missing feet, missing insulation, missing anodization or something similar happens which they haven't informed the buyers of. Still having a hard time deciding with 1h 30 min left. I wonder why no further price breaks or more choices on case colours have been introduced seen as the numbers are getting quite high. Surely they become cheaper per unit, even if Massdrop claims theim to cost remain the same.

IanM · 28 Jan 2013, 18:04

I'm struggling with the decision to buy, it's going to be ~£220 (€256) by the time VAT and the courier import fee is added.

The case is just five layers of acrylic that has been cut out, so doesn't sound like it will be all that great and I can see why some people are saying they would just like the PCB and other internal components. That said looking at the price of MX switches on the other group buys it doesn't exactly look like a rip off for the massdrop kit, $199 is a competitive price for those parts?

Icarium wrote:...any studies that show that somebody's performance improved using ultrapolling?

I used to be in videogames development, I can tell you for sure that on some of the sports games I worked on there were serious issues with calling animations in time, often leaving the player with less than ¼ of a frame in which to trigger an action, usually at the most vital moments (leading to much frustration even for someone incredibly good at anticipating and predicting the action) and in some case the window was so short as to be non existent.

sordna · 28 Jan 2013, 18:14

It's definitely not a ripoff, the price estimate when this project was started, was ~ $400, and given ergonomic mechanical keyboards like the Kinesis Advantage and even the Truly ergonomic are more than $200, for a custom, limited-production keyboard $199 is a great price, and my guess is you'll be able to sell it if you don't like it.
I have no idea about gaming requirements, but it sounds like the ultra-polling stuff will need a special driver, not the regular os driver, so anyone claiming to do that stuff without a special driver is probably pulling a marketing gimmick, like the gold-plated connectors.

webwit · 28 Jan 2013, 18:14

I'll wait till a community groupbuy emerges later, if not, tough luck. I'm not in a hurry.

7bit · 28 Jan 2013, 19:06

webwit wrote:I'll wait till a community groupbuy emerges later, if not, tough luck. I'm not in a hurry.

Thanks!

justcallmecrash · 28 Jan 2013, 19:26

I went in for 3 sets of PCBs and 3 sets of the internal (non-switch) electronics. I doubt I'll be able to source all those bits for less that $30/board (the cost of all the electronics from Massdrop per board). When it's all said and done, I'll be out $222 and a donor board for switches and I'll have 3 boards.

Might go in for the PBT keycaps, too... that's not a terrible deal, either.

mintberryminuscrunch · 28 Jan 2013, 19:40

justcallmecrash wrote: ...3 sets of the internal (non-switch) electronics...

where is that option?

justcallmecrash · 28 Jan 2013, 19:45

You have to email them. You can go to the PCB groupbuy page and then do a live-support chat. Will and Mark are the two guys I've dealt with and they've been pretty great.

IanM · 28 Jan 2013, 20:10

sordna wrote:It's definitely not a ripoff...

That's what I thought, but I still bottled out of ordering - didn't want to commit on something I'm not 100% sure I want.

sordna wrote:...it sounds like the ultra-polling stuff will need a special driver...

I don't know how it works, but there are plenty of mice that are driverless and allow users to choose the polling rate, and there is various software to test it. I think if any brand was effectively lying about their product's polling rate there would be a lot of posters on the likes of OCN and ESR complaining loudly.

damorgue wrote:In the case of a dispute, your only option is to fuck off.

pay by PayPal? or use your credit card protection if there is a serious problem? better than nothing, but I struggle to wrap my head around the USA's limited consumer protection legislation, apparent lack of law like we have in Europe that says unfair contract terms are invalid.

damorgue · 28 Jan 2013, 20:30

IanM wrote:
damorgue wrote:In the case of a dispute, your only option is to fuck off.
pay by PayPal? or use your credit card protection if there is a serious problem? better than nothing, but I struggle to wrap my head around the USA's limited consumer protection legislation, or even law like we have in Europe that says unfair contract terms are invalid.

But we agreed to a contract which removes or right at claims and where we must do everything in our power in order to defend them in a dispute. Money claims violate said agreement as we are to protect them from loss, and reimburse them for claims and all that. Not only that, but the agreement specifically mentions that it supersedes other laws and that we waive any rights given to us by other laws. I don't really see a way around it.