Does this make me #2 ban on GH?

[Soarer]

they appeared to be using 'free speech' in a way designed to disrupt the free speech of others by spamming the thread.

Arguing against massdrop disrupts the free speech of others, and it was by design? I think that is quite a dramatic accusation. But then logically the objective observant should note that arguing in favor of massdrop disrupts the free speech of others as well, by design, because they repeatedly continued the subject. Or you have picked sides.

I have not picked sides in that debate. It's not a side that would be guilty of deliberate disruption, it's individuals.

Anyway I think your statement is fundamentally flawed, because it's still merely about your favored opinion in this argument. It's still just picking sides and wanting to shut up the other by calling their on-topic contributions where they reply to other people "spam". If you divide free speech like this, in fact you can't and you end up with a censored environment, because people would shut up other people by prosecuting them "for disruption of the free speech of others" (where does it start, where does it end?), in other words, saying something which wasn't liked by the prosecutors with whatever standard they are applying.

Again, it's not about me picking a side. I have voiced absolutely zero opinion on massdrop, either directly or indirectly. I will say now that I simply can't be bothered to make my mind up on the issue. However, the ergodox GB went ahead, so there was a losing side in the initial argument (which was a valid a discussion to have). Objectively, I have to take that into account. Perhaps that explains the imbalance you perceive.

Free speech clearly has its limits, or nobody would ever have been banned from DT for anything except commercial spamming. So clearly there is some distinction based on perceived motive.

Seeking to prevent the ergodox massdrop GB once it started can't be the motive. Seeking to prevent massdrop GBs in general would have been better in its own thread. So, as a logical man, I'm bound to suspect there was some other motive.

Ad-absurdum, nice.

You dismiss my hypothetical case about free speech where I was looking for intelligent debate, as an absurd counter attack, that's not very nice.

No, just the part that was ad-absurdum...

I think our committee of People Who Decide When Other People Have Had Their Say and Should Shut Up was sleeping.

[webwit]

It's still opinion, because I can turn it around with the same argument from the other perspective. The premise was whether it is a good idea for the community if a commercial 3rd party power plays itself into the community. I haven't seen an intelligent answer from you, Dox or friends. They couldn't be bothered, but asked "what have you done for the product?" and "shut up". So they care only or more about the product, not the community, and were spamming away intellectual debate with ad hominem attacks on massdrop criticizers. See how it's not very nice to put away different opinion as spam to deny others free speech?

[Soarer]

It's not very nice to keep painting me as pro-massdrop, when I am not. My only observation is that the premise that 'was ... if ...' changed once it happened, and that continuing the argument in the ergodox thread could not hope to achieve anything positive.

Regardless of whether massdrop is good or bad for the community, is is good for the community that dox was driven to leave over it? I think not. Sure, that's just opinion, but I suspect one shared by a large portion of the community.

[7bit]

Dox should have ask for help from the community and reject massdrop at all!

I'm quite sure people will get their stuff, but it is not a community group buy anymore and I share webwit's concern about massdrop being not good for the community because this is a trend towards commercialization of group buys, which is contrary to the original group buy idea. It is like letting a commercial event manager organising a birthday party or such.

Why can't we do this on our own?

[Soarer]

Dox should have ask for help from the community and reject massdrop at all!

Are you saying he 'had it coming' for choosing massdrop?

[7bit]

Don't know what you mean by "'had it coming'".

[Soarer]

Don't you have google?! had it coming.

[webwit]

Well 7bit also did lots for the community, running all those group buys. And some even said nasty things. And he didn't cry and leave.

[7bit]

Ripster, Soarer and friends did nerve-killing me quite a lot, this is true. But I never thought of this as thread crapping or had any problem with it.

The only thing which was not so nice, was when mkawa spread FUD against me towards Melissa at SP, almost bringing down Round 4 and causing me to refund a lot of people which jumped off the boat. The result: $3500 more to pay because we could not pay in time and prices have raised.

[Soarer]

I don't think I said any nasty things. Negative, sure, but even in my angry complaining I tried to just make my point and be done with it.

[7bit]

So did webwit in the ErgoDox thread. Critizising things (I did a lot of mistakes, I know) is fully OK and nobody did anything else in the ErgoDox thread.

Also, nobody spread FUD against Massdrop towards the suppliers (like PCB wing etc.).

[Soarer]

Well no, that's my point. The difference is that the argument about massdrop went on and on and on, even after it could not hope to achieve anything as far as the ergodox GB was concerned, and both sides were simply repeating themselves. For such an important debate, it seems oddly quiet now that dox decided to "cry and leave".

[guilleguillaume]

Ripster, Soarer and friends did nerve-killing me quite a lot, this is true. But I never thought of this as thread crapping or had any problem with it.

The only thing which was not so nice, was when mkawa spread FUD against me towards Melissa at SP, almost bringing down Round 4 and causing me to refund a lot of people which jumped off the boat. The result: $3500 more to pay because we could not pay in time and prices have raised.

Just wow

[rknize]

The only thing which was not so nice, was when mkawa spread FUD against me towards Melissa at SP, almost bringing down Round 4 and causing me to refund a lot of people which jumped off the boat. The result: $3500 more to pay because we could not pay in time and prices have raised.

That is not entirely true, 7bit. Since you are dragging this all out into the open and I am personally responsible for making sure you knew what was going on with SP, I have a pretty good handle on what went down. The real problem was a lack of communication between SP and you and the fact that Melissa seemed to think of the various GH/DT GBs as somehow being connected. In fact, you are very lucky that it all happened the way it did. SP's owner was pressuring Melissa very hard to cancel R4 because they had already lost money and were continuing to lose money on those molds. What they charged us was only part of the total cost to make them. They covered the rest, effectively fronting their money for R4 because the molds were not making key caps. Of course, SP did not communicate any of this very well, so you were left to think that they were fine with a partially-funded purchase that was dragging on for months and months. Communication failure between you and SP almost killed the SPH order a second time for the exact same reasons.

Mkawa only found out about it by accident because Melissa complained to him about it. Now the exchange between you and him was pretty rough, as he was rather shocked about all of this and was worried about the community's relationship with SP. I got involved to try to act as mediator with the hope of salvaging R4. Luckily we patched things up with Melissa and the GB organizers have been working on new methods to reduce errors. We even sent her a free keyboard and wrist rest. We also better understand what they expect from us, so things have been much better since.

The bottom line is that our situation with SP has improved overall, in spite of all that happened. But to paint Mkawa as the demon in this story is not fair at all.

[7bit]

Sorry, but mkawa did mess up with SP first and then the whole thing got into trouble. He did this all behind my back. Not nice! I will post all the e-mail conversation if you want.

He simply messed about things he had no right to mess about, because he was not part of the group buy (contrary to you or people who contributed legends, layout ideas etc.) He also tried to force a refunding by SP which would have ended in quite a loss for everybody with tooling costs woths around $10,000 lost for quite some time (until another group buy makes use of these). He also made sure that someone jumped off who paid already nearly $2000.

As for paying 50% before and the rest before delivery: This is what Melissa told me when we ordered Round 3, but back then we where able to pay immediately and did so because iMav did not want to keep all the money in PayPal.

Well, nevertheless, everything is paid by now, some people had even been double refunded and only because a nearby PayPal lock I could not make sure the few remaining people got their money back. Soon the Round 3 replacements will be sent out and everybody will be happy!

[metalliqaz]

One of these days I'm going to have to finally track down why webwit says Massdrop is illegal in EU... Not that I would ever buy anything from them anyway (I'm not a fan for other reasons), just curious what could be so bad.

Anyway for a bunch of guys who are supposedly above the chaos over at GH, you sure argue a lot. Sheesh.

[Acanthophis]

Because on DT, unlike GH, you don't get banned for arguing. Hence people argue here. Sometimes a lot.
I enjoy arguments. So, go on, please.

[rknize]

7bit, I do agree that he over-stepped and he agreed as well in the end. I was on all of the emails. There were also side conversations with SP that were not captured via email. His motive was the SP relationship, but at the expense of R4 which wasn't right. That was why I wanted to set it straight at the time. This was a powder keg that I believe would have gone off with or without him unless the communication between you and SP suddenly improved. SP was questioning whether they should ever work with us again.

I do want to thank you for seeing it all through, despite the hardships. You are a real trooper. A lesser person would have simply walked away. While I still think you must be crazy for running GBs like this, I know I can speak for everyone invested in R4 that we appreciate your determination and integrity. Let's hope SP delivers without too many errors and we can finally put the SP GBs of old behind us!

[rknize]

Because on DT, unlike GH, you don't get banned for arguing. Hence people argue here. Sometimes a lot.
I enjoy arguments. So, go on, please.

Plenty of arguing happens on GH.

[webwit]

One of these days I'm going to have to finally track down why webwit says Massdrop is illegal in EU... Not that I would ever buy anything from them anyway (I'm not a fan for other reasons), just curious what could be so bad.

Their terms are illegal because they state these terms can be changed by them at any point without notification. So in case of a disagreement, they have a sword and the consumer has nothing.

You can't do that in the EU. Compare to for instance my ISP, if they want to change terms they have to notify me, point to the small print and an explanation of the differences in human language, and give me 30 days to cancel my contract without termination fees.

[7bit]

.... While I still think you must be crazy for running GBs like this, I know I can speak for everyone invested in R4 that we appreciate your determination and integrity. Let's hope SP delivers without too many errors and we can finally put the SP GBs of old behind us!

There is a simple reason: In Round 3 I did not get what I needed since I discoivered the Tipro. All it can cover are G80-2100 or G80-2551 etc. Now I will (hopefully) get the key caps for an even better keyboard: Hyper7.

I really had to do Round 4 and it had to be successful. If it had been a failure, nobody could be ever tricked by me into any group buy again.

[rknize]

Now I will (hopefully) get the key caps for an even better keyboard: Hyper7.

Yes, Hyper. Looking at the GB makes me worry about you.

[7bit]

First, Round 4 must come to an end. Then I can do the same insanity in keyboards!

[Soarer]

Well shit. Now I look at the thread the demongolator split off I see why it's got so many posts in it. It's not the split I thought it would be. Never mind the fate of existing posts *, but if we're to have a reasoned intelligent debate about massdrop (et al?) in general, I think it would be better for it to have its own thread.

* Actually, I do mind, since technical info is now split between the two threads in a random way

[kalrykh]

That "threadcrapping" rule in the classifieds is nothing more than assisting the greed. If you can't comment on a price you can't guard new members from being ripped off.

Whats worse?


imav needs to sort it out, we've had one mod run away with group buy money for christ sake.

Who did this?

[dirge]

It was Changdrew http://deskthority.net/geekhacker-refug ... t3097.html

[rknize]

Yes, that was a total disaster.

[jabar]

7bit, I do agree that he over-stepped and he agreed as well in the end. ...

Ends justify the means, yep, right.

[IvanIvanovich]

I think we need a topic to discuss these politics of groupbuy payment collections. I need to find some alternative as a US person to paypal that is actually viable. Since running a rather large buy last year with about $20K passing though my account and the new rules of paypal reporting all this supposed income that I did not personally get as 'income' almost got me into some very hot water (a near miss of me owing almost $2000 to IRS) with my tax return. It is only going to get harder for us US people being organizer.
I was considering using massdrop for GMK buy, but if it is going to be such a huge issue I will have to consider something else.

[Halverson]

I think we need a topic to discuss these politics of groupbuy payment collections. I need to find some alternative as a US person to paypal that is actually viable. Since running a rather large buy last year with about $20K passing though my account and the new rules of paypal reporting all this supposed income that I did not personally get as 'income' almost got me into some very hot water (a near miss of me owing almost $2000 to IRS) with my tax return. It is only going to get harder for us US people being organizer.
I was considering using massdrop for GMK buy, but if it is going to be such a huge issue I will have to consider something else.

What about the option of getting people to pay tax for the orders, so you can declare tax and avoid trouble?