FREE WILL Does Not Exist: Illusion of the Mind by Psychological Ration

User avatar
7bit

27 Mar 2017, 11:53

Menuhin wrote: ...

About Japan, ... US war propagandists manipulation. ... Primary evidence artifact has been the gold standard ... , but then not until for this piece of modern history e.g. In Steven Spielberg documentary movie, oral Narrative eye-witness evidence was never so accepted as enough even when these primary evidence has been lacking.
Tilt!
:shock:

In your world:
- There was also no genocide against the Armenians, right?
- Was there even a Berlin wall?
- Was there a Vietnam war?
- Did people land on the moon?
- Was there a 9/11 attack? Didn't they just demolish those 2 ugly looking buildings to make room for a new one (all financed from insurance money) and use the pictures as propaganda to start new wars to help the war industry?
:o

Wait for long enough after the event, and be sure people will ask: "Did it really happen?"
:roll:

User avatar
Menuhin

27 Mar 2017, 12:06

caligo wrote: ...
The 44-year-old also signed a motion during Zündel's trial with "Heil Hitler" and shouted that the lay judges deserved the death penalty for "offering succour to the enemy" -- leading the court to dismiss her.
... pseudo-fascist bullshit does not really interest me. There is no law against asking questions ...
I didn't read about her act in court was like that in some other reports.
You know, just this one sentence, which can only be verified by those presence at the time in court, can already render the image of a person totally differently.

I am putting effort in here only because I want to counter brainwashing and promoting critical thinking towards historical events, leading to justice and clarifications.
So, please don't put other hats on me.

Yes, I think there is no law against asking questions, and there are even lots of scholarship funding to ask question FOR a certain side - I ran into and talked to a number of those got money to do a master or a PhD in archival research for the arguments, and these people were NEVER scientifically inclined. To ask questions that doubt or even against the subject matter is forbidden, if asked in a high profile or even with official documents issued, one will probably ended up like UH or the lawyer - portrayed as radical and sentenced to jail, again and again.

User avatar
Menuhin

27 Mar 2017, 12:09

7bit wrote:
Menuhin wrote: ...

About Japan, ... US war propagandists manipulation. ... Primary evidence artifact has been the gold standard ... , but then not until for this piece of modern history e.g. In Steven Spielberg documentary movie, oral Narrative eye-witness evidence was never so accepted as enough even when these primary evidence has been lacking.
Tilt!
:shock:

In your world:
- There was also no genocide against the Armenians, right?
- Was there even a Berlin wall?
- Was there a Vietnam war?
- Did people land on the moon?
- Was there a 9/11 attack? Didn't they just demolish those 2 ugly looking buildings to make room for a new one (all financed from insurance money) and use the pictures as propaganda to start new wars to help the war industry?
:o

Wait for long enough after the event, and be sure people will ask: "Did it really happen?"
:roll:
I trust primary sources, which is the gold standard, and I count artifacts produced or obtained on site as the best, e.g. objects or video or photos obtained on site.
There is a thin line between historian and court case work, more and more historians later in the 21st century accept eye-witness reports as primary sources; however, in court for a murder case, just an eye-witness report, but without remains, without the method and verification of the method, and without a feasible time and location, usually will not be a valid case against the accused.

Therefore I added this link:
http://guides.library.ucsc.edu/primarysecondary
Whether conducting research in the social sciences, humanities (especially history), arts, or natural sciences, the ability to distinguish between primary and secondary source material is essential. Basically, this distinction illustrates the degree to which the author of a piece is removed from the actual event being described, informing the reader as to whether the author is reporting impressions first hand (or is first to record these immediately following an event), or conveying the experiences and opinions of others—that is, second hand.

Primary sources

These are contemporary accounts of an event, written by someone who experienced or witnessed the event in question. These original documents (i.e., they are not about another document or account) are often diaries, letters, memoirs, journals, speeches, manuscripts, interviews and other such unpublished works. They may also include published pieces such as newspaper or magazine articles (as long as they are written soon after the fact and not as historical accounts), photographs, audio or video recordings, research reports in the natural or social sciences, or original literary or theatrical works.


Secondary sources

The function of these is to interpret primary sources, and so can be described as at least one step removed from the event or phenomenon under review. Secondary source materials, then, interpret, assign value to, conjecture upon, and draw conclusions about the events reported in primary sources. These are usually in the form of published works such as journal articles or books, but may include radio or television documentaries, or conference proceedings.

User avatar
7bit

27 Mar 2017, 12:30

7bit wrote: - There was also no genocide against the Armenians, right?
- Was there even a Berlin wall?
- Was there a Vietnam war?
- Did people land on the moon?
- Was there a 9/11 attack? Didn't they just demolish those 2 ugly looking buildings to make room for a new one (all financed from insurance money) and use the pictures as propaganda to start new wars to help the war industry?
:o
You still did not answer.
:roll:

Or are you afraid you will be put to justice for the "wrong" answers?
:mrgreen:

User avatar
Menuhin

27 Mar 2017, 12:46

7bit wrote:
7bit wrote: - There was also no genocide against the Armenians, right?
- Was there even a Berlin wall?
- Was there a Vietnam war?
- Did people land on the moon?
- Was there a 9/11 attack? Didn't they just demolish those 2 ugly looking buildings to make room for a new one (all financed from insurance money) and use the pictures as propaganda to start new wars to help the war industry?
:o
You still did not answer.
:roll:

Or are you afraid you will be put to justice for the "wrong" answers?
:mrgreen:
So I hope you have grasped the concept of historical primary sources.
  • genocide against the Armenians:
    I have not read too much into the details of the debated event, which can also be used for a settlement plot, and the nature of 'genocide' in the incident has been debated.
  • Berlin Wall:
    sure, there are primary evidence artifacts around me, I cycled / walked along almost the whole of Mauerweg :)
  • Vietnam war:
    sure, there are lots of primary evidence artifacts even on eBay, and wounded people, damaged family homes, the consequence of agent orange is still there.
  • Moon landing:
    I am not sure about this one, because of the actual nature of Van Allen radiation belt and NASA's claim that current technologies are not good for having similar mission. But those shiny and beautiful toy Kosmo/Cosmo key caps are real - of course Rounds are more useful and good looking as a whole set ;)
  • 9/11:
    9/11 attack did happen. Lots of evidence. To whom, sure: NYC and the US civilians; Who actually did that and How they actually did that was much debated. One thing is for sure: George W. Bush made use of it promptly to start a long war.

User avatar
Mr.Nobody

27 Mar 2017, 13:04

@7 bit
Because of the prosperous economy I made a humble fortune, so 500 euro +59.98 shipping is okay to me, I don't mind being overcharged a little bit, plus, you guys over there need the money...

Prosperous economy is also the real reason that no demonstrator is protesting on the street; people’s need and demand are met in time, and you are right, everything in China is all good at least for now.

As to the “demonstration and crime rate thing”
I feel sorry for Romania, a country having a population of approx. 20,000,000 (if the data is not precise enough KBDFR will provide a more precise one voluntarily) produces 500,000 demonstrators protesting against severe political corruption issues... wait a minute, you said democracy has less corruption, then how come?

To make a comparison, Shang Hai a major city of China, has a population of 25,000,000, I don't know what you guys feel but I think it indeed takes quite a helluva political wisdom and a better political system to manage to satisfy a country having a population of 1.3 billion comprises of 56 ethnic groups.

And if you want to make the crime rate look better, you can just legalize some crimes like you've legalized porn industry and bribery(I heard it's called political donation over there), Man you guys really need to check the beloved democracy system to figure out why it leads you into such a dead end, and thank God you have football and Nuclear weapons now, otherwise who knows how many world wars would break in Europe(and probably drag the rest of the world into).

As to the "free speech and more information opened to public thing" that you are so proud of; please allow me put it this way to make it more easier to understand:

Let's say, there is a kid who gets ill, he goes to a drug store, all medicines are accessible to him, with instruction sheets of course,is the abundance of information helpful for him to choose the right medicine? If he has no idea which medicine should take, he could also ask for advice, but there are many adults in the drug store, some are doctors with certificates, some are just casual strangers, some are crooks who're trying so sell illegal drugs, especially to kids, and this drug store has this " free speech policy" entitles everybody to give advice to the poor kid, but the kid must make his own decision on which medicine to take, what are the odds that the kid will receive the right advice and choose the right medicine for healing his illness?

The multitude is just like the kid who has limitations on knowledge and cognition no matter how hard you educate him, this free speech thing is a double blade sword, it causes as many problems as it solves.
Last edited by Mr.Nobody on 27 Mar 2017, 13:20, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
7bit

27 Mar 2017, 13:06

The more recent the events, the more likely you accept they happend.
:roll:

@ Mr.Nobody:
Ever heared of China's one-child-policy and Women taken away their unborn baby against their will?
:shock:

I think I have no time to further discuss with you ignorants.
:roll:

User avatar
caligo

27 Mar 2017, 13:09

Menuhin wrote:
caligo wrote: ...
The 44-year-old also signed a motion during Zündel's trial with "Heil Hitler" and shouted that the lay judges deserved the death penalty for "offering succour to the enemy" -- leading the court to dismiss her.
... pseudo-fascist bullshit does not really interest me. There is no law against asking questions ...
I didn't read about her act in court was like that in some other reports.
You know, just this one sentence, which can only be verified by those presence at the time in court, can already render the image of a person totally differently.

I am putting effort in here only because I want to counter brainwashing and promoting critical thinking towards historical events, leading to justice and clarifications.
So, please don't put other hats on me.

Yes, I think there is no law against asking questions, and there are even lots of scholarship funding to ask question FOR a certain side - I ran into and talked to a number of those got money to do a master or a PhD in archival research for the arguments, and these people were NEVER scientifically inclined. To ask questions that doubt or even against the subject matter is forbidden, if asked in a high profile or even with official documents issued, one will probably ended up like UH or the lawyer - portrayed as radical and sentenced to jail, again and again.
Well, you're now wearing the Holocaust denier tinfoil hat – and that's by your own choice and noone else's. And that hat is awfully similar to the fascist one, just saying'.

It's not forbidden to ask questions 'against the subject matter' (whatever that even means). Revisionism in the proper sense of the word is an integral part of all historical research. It's just that some areas – e.g. the Holocaust – are so well researched that it's not very relevant to spend funds and time trying to ask yet again if maybe it didn't happen after all, despite so many studies describing it in detail and all the hard evidence. It's kind of like how there is very little done nowadays in the field of biology to try and disprove the theory of evolution.
Last edited by caligo on 27 Mar 2017, 13:43, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Mr.Nobody

27 Mar 2017, 13:42

@7 bit
Don't blow your top please, just for the sake of nice conversation...have a rest if you are not in the mood.

The so called "one child policy" is a misunderstanding of the "birth control policy." Birth control doesn’t mean “one child”, it’s meant to regulate the birthrate, when there are too many , we discourage, when there are too few, we encourage.

Back in the days when China was suffering from over-population, the government enacted a law to allow one family to have only one kid, MIND YOU, not including families from rural areas or one of the couple belongs to minority ethnic groups.

However, some people refused to comply and protested hysterically...Imagine you are driving a car on a narrow road, and some selfish asshole driver insists on driving in the middle of the road, he claims “it’s his freedom how to drive his car.” Shouldn’t this kind of driver be punished? The same thing happened after the birth control policy came out, some people refused to make sacrifice for the country, they claimed “ I don’t give a damn about the over population stuff, I want more kids.” Ironically, now because of the issue of “old-age population” government starts to encourage families to have 2 kids, but most people don’t want to have more than one nowadays, and more and more families choose DINK.

EDIT:
For those who want to know, families from rural areas were allowed to have 2 kids. 55 out of 56 ethnic groups are regarded as minorities, all of them are allow to have more than one kid, and the government provides allowance and all kinds of favorale policies to their kids. For instance, kids from minority ethnic groups can go to college with lower score and enjoy discount on tuition.
Last edited by Mr.Nobody on 28 Mar 2017, 02:22, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
7bit

27 Mar 2017, 15:43

About that kid:
It is good that it can inform itself from different sources, just has to learn which it can trust. This is a difficult process. I have learend this. But maybe this is bacause I could always compare reality with propaganda and therefore learn what is propaganda and what is reality.

Maybe this is the hardest thing you have to learn in life. @Menuhin: If you try and have an open mind, you will learn one day to recognize those fake news fascism propaganda websites. To me it does not take much reading and I know what they are about. It works with right and left radicalists (commies) and also with Islamic fundamentalist propaganda as well.
:o

@Mr.Nobody: If there is no such thing as free will, then your Chinese leaders are also have no free will!
:P

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

27 Mar 2017, 18:20

Menuhin wrote: I can see another totally brainwashed way of reasoning to argue against the much needed questioning and clarification
kbdfr wrote: ... millions ...
The exact number appeared again and again already on the newspapers in the 1930s, and similar accusations but about different incidents.

This has been part of the settlement plan.

Justice is in my mind.
I will add some details for what you talked about above, hoping to help you see things more clearly.
Spoiler:
On a US TV show:
Newspapers with the same numbers:
And people were talking about the construction of an oven / fridge with an unfitting operating temperature, the doors are not air-tight and even open towards inside, and with lots of reconstruction for tourists.
Have you at all looked at the newspapers in the second video you link?
The "six million" figure pathetically repeated by the off voice refers to something completely different.

That's the usual tactics of revisionists: post a half-truth, add a complete lie (like your former tale of Ursula Haverbeck having allegedly been "put to jail without sentence"), cite a few other revisionists as if they were completely neutral (like Sylvia Stolz or, why not, Horst Mahler), and pretend you are not a simple antisemite, but a noble soul just in search of the truth.

Simply disgusting.

User avatar
7bit

27 Mar 2017, 18:28

I suggest he should request his account to be renamed "Horst". This name would suit him better.
:lol:

User avatar
ohaimark
Kingpin

27 Mar 2017, 18:38

It's really a proposition that nets absolutely nothing. "If there is no free will, then ..." Then what? I should submit to others' will? I should give everything up and die? I should eschew all self worth?

How, then, should I live?

Well, I'll keep living how I want to. As long as I'm standing by my values as a man of integrity (and those values intersect with arguments, reasoning, and evidence), I will be a happy individual.

User avatar
Mr.Nobody

28 Mar 2017, 01:07

@ohaimark
The traffic light works because most people can distinguish colors: RED GREEN and Yellow, but if the majority of the population are comprised of color-blind people, should we still adopt color signals to regulate traffic? Let people who actually have no free will and ability of independent thinking to vote to make important decisions is just like letting color-blind drivers to...and the result is of course disasterous...We can't make color-blind people see color, but we can adpot another signal system.

@7 bit
No, the leaders don't have free will either, they are human beings too. The idea is to let the professionals work on the job they are good at without being interfered by amateurs. Iet the doctors decide which medicine the kid should take and give professional advice, they are doctors they know better, at least better than the kid and those casual shoppers in the drugstore.

User avatar
Menuhin

28 Mar 2017, 01:30

caligo wrote:
Menuhin wrote: ...
Well, you're now wearing the Holocaust denier tinfoil hat – and that's by your own choice and noone else's. And that hat is awfully similar to the fascist one, just saying'.

It's not forbidden to ask questions 'against the subject matter' (whatever that even means). Revisionism in the proper sense of the word is an integral part of all historical research. It's just that some areas – e.g. the Holocaust – are so well researched that it's not very relevant to spend funds and time trying to ask yet again if maybe it didn't happen after all, despite so many studies describing it in detail and all the hard evidence. It's kind of like how there is very little done nowadays in the field of biology to try and disprove the theory of evolution.
Please don't use the term.
Please don't put any tinfoil hat on me.
Let's see I am new to the topic, and if I am a tourist and fresh off the boat, how would you "educate" me on a historical event that you believe happened since your elementary school education? If I am very curious, can you provide one answer after another to my questions?

All I can see is that most people in modern Europe are quite brainwashed. The reason is that, not many Europeans actually can answer these questions well, all they love to say have been similar: "... so many studies describing it in detail and all the hard evidence ..." even for a local friend who majored in modern politics and modern history in high school. I don't blame them, because when I talked about this with 2 non-scientific scholars on the subject matter, they said something similar at the end when they ran out of information. And you can see, when you say it is not very relevant to still spend funds and time, yes, funds are still spent, to gather people to pile up even more arguments on the FOR side.

My main point is not even on the matter itself, it is about the hindering policy, the current situation forbid asking questions, forbid clarifications.
When the topic evolved into free speech, I propose here that there can be some very sophisticated ways of hindering freedom of speech and thought, making people self-censusing and not questioning.

User avatar
Mr.Nobody

28 Mar 2017, 01:37

@caligo and menuhin

Rather valuable inputs from you guys, I am reading your posts again,to get books or information sources you guys mentioned...a helluva meal for brain.

User avatar
Menuhin

28 Mar 2017, 01:45

kbdfr wrote: ...
The "six million" figure pathetically repeated by the off voice refers to something completely different.
...
What is "semite"? That includes all the Palestinians, Jordanians, Bedouins, Lebanese, etc in the area.
I have friends from Israel, or friends who hold their passports because of their grandparents that hang out and discuss almost every kind of matters with me. They are very opened minded, but not brainwashed, some of them can even be on the questioning side.
If I tell them my grandparents witnessed a teddy bear used its paw to punch a hold into a fire hydrant, would they believe it? I don't know... How about aliens abduction? Perhaps one can be more convincing if one can find some outer space rare materials / remains verified in a qualified lab. And how about dragons?

The point of that video was, why bother to try to add up to such a specific number?
The same numbers have been 'casually' repeatedly used by the same group many many times in history claiming victims blaming different groups for various acts on newspapers. Of course, someone brainwashed may want to say these can all be true. And of course, there was this final one time some people were finally in power, and then hit the jack pot to run a full program to add up to the number and wrote books, alongside the resettlement and century long continuous funding program.

There is no reason for me to be on one side or another, I learn these historical events with a fresh questioning mind without any historical baggage / or brainwashing imposed baggage, and almost I believe I already read more than an average local high school student about the events including digging into the online archives of these gigantic historical trials documentation myself, I have to say I am still learning.
Spoiler:
Image
How about their own understanding of their own history is a self-hating bad one?
Most importantly, I want to point out that when the act of questioning is forbidden, something is really wrong with the authority. I would love to hear what primary historical evidences are for which events, I already talked about Berlin Wall, etc.
Last edited by Menuhin on 28 Mar 2017, 02:27, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
fohat
Elder Messenger

28 Mar 2017, 02:20

I read the last several posts and scratch my head in perplexity.

Scientific method - questioning, searching/researching, experimenting, evaluating, re-evaluating - perhaps "ultimate truth" is not an attainable goal but "proof beyond reasonable doubt" is something to reasonably reach for.

User avatar
kbdfr
The Tiproman

28 Mar 2017, 08:26

Menuhin wrote: […] What is "semite"? That includes all the Palestinians, Jordanians, Bedouins, Lebanese, etc in the area. […]
The usual argument of antisemites - if you can't refute the argument, try refuting the word.
Even if the word "Semitic" has a different (scientific) meaning, "antisemite" is commonly used to refer to people who hate Jews, that's as simple as that.
Trying to obfuscate this evident meaning of the word "antisemite" is behaving like those Middle-Age Catholic priests who, prohibited by the Church to eat flesh on Fridays, ate fish because, well, fish is not flesh, is it?
I have friends from Israel, or friends who hold their passports because of their grandparents that hang out and discuss almost every kind of matters with me. They are very opened minded, but not brainwashed, some of them can even be on the questioning side.
Sure you have friends from Israel. Probably a whole bunch. Dozens of them. More than anyone else. And of course all eager to discuss with you and hear from you that they belong to a conspiracy with the aim of taking over the world.
Don't they tell you how they poison wells and sacrifice Christian babies?

The point of that video was, why bother to try to add up to such a specific number?
The same numbers have been 'casually' repeatedly used by the same group many many times in history claiming victims blaming different groups for various acts on newspapers. Of course, someone brainwashed may want to say these can all be true. And of course, there was this final one time some people were finally in power, and then hit the jack pot to run a full program to add up to the number and wrote books, alongside the resettlement and century long continuous funding program.
The number of "six million" in the video refers to "half of the Jewish population of the world" in Eastern Europe whose normal existence was generally threatened by different entities in WWI, not to planned intentional mass murdering. This has nothing to do with the "six million" of the Holocaust. It must have been a real feast for your fellow antisemites when they discovered that both numbers happened to coincidate.
And by the way, do you think i) that the number "six million" has a sort of magic meaning to the Jews, so that it had to be repeated, or ii) that the Jews were so stupid they invented the number "six million" after the war without noticing they had already used it previously?

The last newspaper (23 February 1938) in the video is a really perfide argument. You may not be aware that three days before, Hitler had announced that he planned to unify all Germans in one single State, thus clearly threatening particularly Poland, where Jews made up about 10% of the entire population of nearly 35 million, and the Jewish population of Central Europe in general. The visceral antisemitism of the Nazis had been documented in "Mein Kampf" already in 1923, and their politics in Germany at the time the newspaper was published was a 5 year long story of deprivation of rights of the Jews.
The article was an evident reaction to Hitler's announcement.
Most importantly, I want to point out that when the act of questioning is forbidden, something is really wrong with the authority. I would love to hear what primary historical evidences are for which events, I already talked about Berlin Wall, etc.
You are not asking any questions, even if you repeat it again and again. You keep posting arguments, not questions.
And you don't even have the guts to say they are directed at Jews, but use periphrases instead.

By the way, even the nick you use here on DT, a keyboard forum, shows how central this topic is to you.
Yehudi Menuhin was a famous Jewish violonist and conductor, his son Gerard Menuhin denies the Holocaust.
Now don't tell me your nick has nothing to do with either of them :lol:

User avatar
7bit

28 Mar 2017, 09:17

Mr.Nobody wrote: @ohaimark
People are color-blind, so they can't distinguish different partys (reds, greens, blacks, blues, oranges, yellows etc.)

@7bit
Elitism rulez!
Even though political partys chose a color (like blank for conservatives and red for social democrats, green for the greens etc.), in the election you have a list of the party's names printed in black on whatever color, usually bold and contrasty enough to be visible to people who are not completely blind.

You still lack proof that people have no free will! The doctors will not decide, they will tell the patient (according to their expertise) he should take that medicine to have this and that effect. If the patient thinks the doctor might only want to sell that medicine because he has a contract with the pharma industry, then the patient may ask someone else (like Dr. Google). It is the patient's free will do find the best solution for her/him.
:evilgeek:

BTW, your argumentation is quite the same as that of the East German government and propagandists. The reality was different. Thanks goodness we got all rid of that shit!
:cool:

User avatar
7bit

28 Mar 2017, 09:30

Menuhin wrote: ... [typical nazi propaganda, detected and removed] ...
Are you calling people who witnessed the holocaust, who witnessed the Nazi bullshit in 1933 to 1945, who witnessed the war, who could not openly say what they wanted to say, who witnessed how people suddenly vanished, do you call these people liars?!
:mad:

Also: Did for example Poland, Belgium, Nederland and Denmark bomb themselves?
:o

User avatar
adhoc

28 Mar 2017, 14:09

[quote="Menuhin" post_id=364438][/quote]

Well, the problem with our education is that it's government funded, so the schooling system is just means of political indoctrination of drones in a way leading elite profits from the most, save for some technical fields.

I've researched the topic quite a bit - not just through the usual, official channels, but also outside. On WW2. On flat earth. On global warming. I try to be open minded and hear stuff out. You must not let yourself fall into the trap of wanting to find lies so badly, that you succumb to confirmation bias. Check everything.

I found out most pro-nazi arguments were revisionism and lies. Most flat earth arguments were based on not understanding physics enough, etc. I'm saying most, because I definitely found lies on the other side of the spectrum as well, but the general picture was correct as "mainstream" history tells it - save for a few sharp edges here and there. But at the end of the day, the winners write the history and that's why we praise Stalin even though he killed literally dozens of millions of people. And we praise americans even though they nuked civilians with never-before-seen weapons of mass destruction, gave them 2 days to give up and then nuke them again.

The only funny thing about the whole concept of Jews and world domination I find is...if they really do rule the world (well, they are represented above average in media, financial elite, etc., we know this for a fact) - how does that make them the "untermensch" by nazi theory? If this is true, doesn't that make us the "untermensch"?

User avatar
7bit

28 Mar 2017, 14:53

adhoc wrote: ... But at the end of the day, the winners write the history and that's why we praise Stalin even though he killed literally dozens of millions of people. ...
Please, what?
:?

Did you go to school during Stalinist era?
:shock:

Stalin was more intelligent than Hitler (who was stupid as hell, like all Nazis), but Stalin was as terrible as all the other despots.
:o

Against those, Al Capone was a great, peaceful humanist and a valuable member of the society!
Spoiler:
Image
:cool:
:roll:

Stalin knew that he can enlarge Russia's influence zone by joining the allied forces against Germany. What followed, is not really a reason to praise Stalin.
:mad: :evil:

User avatar
adhoc

28 Mar 2017, 15:00

Well, we did still have to call our teachers "comrades" (="tovariš") when I was in school yes, so that may have had something to do with it :puke: . I wouldn't say Hitler was not intelligent. If he was stupid as hell, what does that make Germans who followed him until his death, then? Borderline retarded? How did such people pick up the pace and become Europes' arguably greatest country in just a few short decades? Something doesn't add up here.

This is like saying Trump is stupid. No, he's clearly not. You may not agree with him, but these people are certainly not stupid. What does that make us then? Does anyone follow your lead? Do you have billions of dollars on your account? And don't give me the dad-lent-him-a-million-dollars - I GUARANTEE you if you know how to make billions from just a million, you can have that million on your credit card by the end of this day.

User avatar
7bit

28 Mar 2017, 15:18

Trump is stupid! An intelligent politican would not act like an idiot! At least not in the first few months. After many years, they all go mad (look at Erdogan), but yes, this Hitler was already mad. There where a lot of criminals backing Hitler, so they could perform the most evil crime in criminal history!
:shock:

On the other hand: Before 1914, Germany was a great country economically and it was on a good way recovering up until 1933, when too many Germans followed the slogan "Make Germany Great again!".
:evil:

The only true thing, where the Nazis really where successful was the elimination of unemployment. They even stopped the great depression in the USA!
:o

But all at the price of milions of people dying in concentration camps, inclusing forced labor and robbing them out, plus those who died in the battlefield!
:cry: :mad:

User avatar
adhoc

28 Mar 2017, 15:26

You are equating (lack of) intelligence with evil, though. I guarantee you that no person that virtually every history book on this planet mentions was stupid.

About Trump...he rallied nearly 70 million people with him. Can you do the same? If he's stupid, what does that make you? He found a language that speaks to the average Joe. That is obviously not easy, otherwise everyone would do it.

And you don't have to explain why you disagree or hate these people. I don't agree with Trump either, but I wouldn't call him stupid. I think Hitler is the worst thing to happen to Europe (not just for the obvious reasons, but also other which I won't go into detail now), but I think he was very clever. Certainly far from stupid. Calling him stupid is undermining what he's done. If you call him stupid and a mass murderer - I'd KIND OF understand that. The truly terrifying thing is he was very smart and still did what he did.

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7bit

28 Mar 2017, 15:40

No! Stalin evil but knew where to stop, when to swap sides or be firendes with the Americans etc.
Hitler did not, he only went more and more mad (from 90% mad in 1933 to 100% mad in 1944 when the war was lost already).

More rationale:

Bismarck knew a 2 fron war is not possible to win (for example against France and Russia). Even worse, Napoleon tried to beat Russia and failed.

Kaiser Wilhelm II was too stupid to start the war against France and Russia and other nations joined in against Germany/Austia/Hungaria. The plan: Fast victory in France (violating Belgium's neutrality), then beat Russia. It failed.

Now Hitler tries the same thing. Again, Germany starts with the more modern armory.
Fast victory in France, this time worked out, but Russia plus intervenation of USA, again stop it. I doubt this would have happend if Russia and Germany would have remained friends. So, in away we can thank the Russians for beating Germany, but the end result was that Russia's teritory and infulence zone had been enlarged. In fact they where the only military winners of the war, if we just ignore the most important thing: The human tragedy!

This alone proves absolute stupidity of Hitler and his gang!!!

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adhoc

28 Mar 2017, 16:22

How incredibly stupid are, by your theory, German people then! Following a stupid, foreign born (Österreich) person like that.

I still think anyone that can rally entire countries behind his name must be a very highly capable, intellectual person.

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7bit

28 Mar 2017, 16:36

Mr.Nobody and Menuhin have already explained this:
- People have no free will, so they follow the first leader they can see.
- People are brainwashed, so they believe what their leaders tell them.
:evilgeek:

In truth, it was not so difficult to win elections with populism. It is not even difficult today. See Trump.
:-)

Just try yourself and become despot of Slovenia within a short time! Just make more false promises than the established politicians, simple solutions, spot the enemy and you will win ...

... unless the Slovenians know better and won't believe you because they smell the trap!
;-)

User avatar
adhoc

28 Mar 2017, 16:54

I don't think so. Populism didn't win in the Netherlands (Wilders). Populism failed miserably in Slovenia (Jelinčič). Etc. You're over simplifying things. If it was this simple, anyone could get into power. But it's not. People are not stupid.

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