deskthority

kbdfr wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 07:31

Samir wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 04:58 […] the original M is still by far the best quality […]

Ahem…

If used properly, none of the rivets should break. People go dumpster diving and expect to find something pristine.

56 M2x6mm metal screws > 56 melted plastic rivets

Tribal wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 15:01

kbdfr wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 07:31

Samir wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 04:58 […] the original M is still by far the best quality […]

Ahem…

If used properly, none of the rivets should break. People go dumpster diving and expect to find something pristine.

Pristine enough for you?



New in box, untouched, protected by inches of intact polystyrene. Yet still has many broken rivets sliding around inside when you tilt it!

Model M is garbage by design. Those rivets are unforgivable! And this is from an IBM fan!

Clickykeyboards' screw mod is more along the lines of what IBM should have manufactured in the first place. But they didn't, because M's design goal was to be cheap, not an advancement in quality.

Muirium wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 15:09

Tribal wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 15:01

kbdfr wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 07:31

Ahem…

If used properly, none of the rivets should break. People go dumpster diving and expect to find something pristine.

[…] New in box, untouched, protected by inches of intact polystyrene. Yet still has many broken rivets sliding around inside when you tilt it!

Another example of a NIB Model M with broken rivets in an old thread, with this revealing answer by the finder (emphasis added):

litster wrote: 31 Oct 2012, 16:14

dirge wrote:Nice one bud! well done. How does it compare to used boards and unicomp?

Haha, it is clean! It is not dirty at all. No cleaning needed. 5 broken rivets, that's all.

So Muirium is indeniably right:

[…] Model M is garbage by design. […]

Admittedly pretty good feeling garbage by design. As compared to, say, Cherry’s active aggression against humanity in the form of the dreaded wet-newspaper keyfeel of Cherry MY.

Quite why they ever lavished any of those miserable switches with their delicious dyesubs is entirely beyond me.

Well, I doubt IBM ever expect people to be using 40 year old Model M keyboards in 2023. If you have a Unicomp keyboard from the 2000s and 2010s, you probably won't have any snapped rivets. But when you go back to the IBM built boards, then you run into the problems.

Conversely, here's one I pulled from a literal trash pile with perfectly intact rivets:
My guess is that rivet failure rates are mostly tied to storage temperature. M barrel plates (at least Greenock ones) are Noryl SPN422L. It's an alloy of PPE, PS, and PTFE. PTFE is almost the definition of stable. PPE and PS are pretty good as far as plastics go but 40 years in a hot warehouse will embrittle just about anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservat ... erioration

Considering how much a Model M cost originally, and how much it cost when Lexmark made them, it amazes me that Unicomp is able to get new molds made and create a keyboard with dye sublimated PBT keycaps and only charge $125 for it. I've seen Cherry MX style PBT keycaps selling for more than a New Model M.

Impressive!

Those flimsy ribbon cables sticking out the back still don't exactly scream pride in quality or craftsmanship, though. Beamspring got this right with its card slot:

Muirium wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 16:11 Admittedly pretty good feeling garbage by design. As compared to, say, Cherry’s active aggression against humanity in the form of the dreaded wet-newspaper keyfeel of Cherry MY.

Quite why they ever lavished any of those miserable switches with their delicious dyesubs is entirely beyond me.

gen 1 MY, the black slider ones, are honestly pretty nice. I think if they were tactile they would have been reasonably cromulent. (and funny enough they are riveted in as well but no one complains about that because they're thicker and in the event of a membrane issue people just chuck MY lol)

kbdfr wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 07:31

Samir wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 04:58 […] the original M is still by far the best quality […]

Ahem…

You know the funny thing? Our very first M that came with our 30-286 had these rivets straight out of the box. We always wondered what was sliding around in the case since we never dropped paperclips in it or anything like that. We shook them out the only time we took off the keycaps and cleaned them and didn't think anything about it since it has always worked fine.

I'm sure almost all my boards have broken rivets, and guess what? They all still work. And this isn't just a few--I have probably somewhere near 40x Ms and none of them are bolt modded or molested in any way afaik as I got them dirt cheap via various used channels. So broken rivets or not, if it has not been abused (dropped, smashed, ran over by a truck, thrown, damaged in shipping, etc), it should work right out of the box without messing around with anything to fix. And even when 'broken', they still work 30yrs later--nearly nothing does that.

Muirium wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 11:50 To be fair, the thread title is "New Model M vs Old IBM Model M", not "Best Keyboard Ever", which very clearly neither of them is!

True, except they are for some of us. All this talk about the new M has me itching to try one somehow...

clickykeyboards wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 15:07 56 M2x6mm metal screws > 56 melted plastic rivets

Beautifully done on a beautiful board. I know if I ever have an issue with any of my Ms where the rivets are an issue, I'll be sending it to you. Been admiring your work for better part of a decade now.

Muirium wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 15:09

Tribal wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 15:01

kbdfr wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 07:31

Ahem…

If used properly, none of the rivets should break. People go dumpster diving and expect to find something pristine.

Pristine enough for you?



New in box, untouched, protected by inches of intact polystyrene. Yet still has many broken rivets sliding around inside when you tilt it!

Model M is garbage by design. Those rivets are unforgivable! And this is from an IBM fan!

Clickykeyboards' screw mod is more along the lines of what IBM should have manufactured in the first place. But they didn't, because M's design goal was to be cheap, not an advancement in quality.

I have one of those too, in box like that with the same rivet issue. Does it make the board not work? No. Can I feel an issue--no. So I don't make it an issue, and it's great to know that there are solid companies that specialize in re-engineering the design.

apastuszak wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 16:17 Well, I doubt IBM ever expect people to be using 40 year old Model M keyboards in 2023. If you have a Unicomp keyboard from the 2000s and 2010s, you probably won't have any snapped rivets. But when you go back to the IBM built boards, then you run into the problems.

Unicmp actually uses the same rivet design, even on their newest. They just beefed them up. Obviously, the rivets are an important part of making the manufacturing cheap, fast, and possible. And even being the weakest link, they still haven't prevented millions of boards living well into the next century (on the calendar). It will be interesting to see an M that's 50yrs old. I guess mine will be. If the world doesn't end by climate change or ww3 in the next 50 years, it will be neat to see an M hit 100yrs old.

apastuszak wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 16:26 Considering how much a Model M cost originally, and how much it cost when Lexmark made them, it amazes me that Unicomp is able to get new molds made and create a keyboard with dye sublimated PBT keycaps and only charge $125 for it. I've seen Cherry MX style PBT keycaps selling for more than a New Model M.

Yep, the price shocks me for sure. It's very practical for what is arguably the very best affordable typing feel out there.

Samir wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 19:57

apastuszak wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 16:26 Considering how much a Model M cost originally, and how much it cost when Lexmark made them, it amazes me that Unicomp is able to get new molds made and create a keyboard with dye sublimated PBT keycaps and only charge $125 for it. I've seen Cherry MX style PBT keycaps selling for more than a New Model M.

Yep, the price shocks me for sure. It's very practical for what is arguably the very best affordable typing feel out there.

What's even more amazing is that they're made in the USA and are cheaper than keyboards made in China.

Now that their keyboards all use RPI2040-based controllers, I wonder if they'll ever use QMK/VIAL out of the box instead of their own firmware.

Muirium wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 16:31 Impressive!

Those flimsy ribbon cables sticking out the back still don't exactly scream pride in quality or craftsmanship, though. Beamspring got this right with its card slot:

You do realize that edge card connectors will corrode over time too, right?

Let's get one thing straight--NONE of this stuff was intended to last for as long as it has. It was just intended to last proportional to the price of the stuff when it was made. Today, you still see it happening in certain types of expensive enterprise gear like rack mount servers.

There are definitely several ways these designs could have been changed or modified to last far beyond their initial design life, and thankfully today we all know the ways to get there if we wish.

apastuszak wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 21:09

Samir wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 19:57

apastuszak wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 16:26 Considering how much a Model M cost originally, and how much it cost when Lexmark made them, it amazes me that Unicomp is able to get new molds made and create a keyboard with dye sublimated PBT keycaps and only charge $125 for it. I've seen Cherry MX style PBT keycaps selling for more than a New Model M.

Yep, the price shocks me for sure. It's very practical for what is arguably the very best affordable typing feel out there.

What's even more amazing is that they're made in the USA and are cheaper than keyboards made in China.

This is the part that doesn't amaze me as the USA has the ability to make things at the same quality as China and even at the same prices (not the cheap garbage, but top end stuff). It's one of the reasons big companies are looking at onshoring again because it solves a bunch of problems that they face when dealing with offshoring, much of which was highlighted by the pandemic.

Samir wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 22:55 You do realize that edge card connectors will corrode over time too, right?

Welcome to entropy.

I'd much rather have that connector than a cheap and nasty "ribbon cable" that looks and feels like cellophane. But you're quite right that at the end of the universe, all such matters are immaterial, as was the dying memory of man's existence.

Samir wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 22:57 This is the part that doesn't amaze me as the USA has the ability to make things at the same quality as China and even at the same prices (not the cheap garbage, but top end stuff). It's one of the reasons big companies are looking at onshoring again because it solves a bunch of problems that they face when dealing with offshoring, much of which was highlighted by the pandemic.

Exactly! Chinese manufacturing's advantage is a deep reservoir of cheap labour. With appropriate scale and determination, they can (be forced quite against their will to) make top quality stuff with world class tolerances. (Talking phones here, not keyboards, obvs!) But there's nothing magical to the process, just sheer capital, supply chain and economies of scale.

Small batch bespoke stuff like our nerdy keyboards is perfectly well attuned to Western manufacture. Hell, even single individuals can do it, for a semi-astronomical price.

Ellipse chose an interesting route with his Model F remakes: small batch manufacture in China with one-man American based QA. (If even that…) It kinda works for him, but isn't giving his customers a good experience. I honestly think on-shoring is the way to make a better, more consistent product than he can, with a lot less drama for everyone involved. But aye, it helps when you already have the facilities, like Unicomp.

Here's a thought: can anyone imagine Unicomp turning into a base for small-batch high end enthusiast manufacture, like Model Fs?

Muirium wrote: 13 Oct 2023, 10:23
it helps when you already have the facilities, like Unicomp.

This is the crucial element. These days almost everything is done with borrowed money and debts to be serviced, but Unicomp has a factory and equipment built by IBM decades ago - and even Unicomp has had the site for 25 years, so the real money was spent on the real gear a very long time ago.

I’d love to see Unicomp expand their product line. Their focus has always been value and I’m not sure how the Model F would fit into that, but a Model F version of their products with a small price hike would be awesome. I bet there would also be demand for HHKB and 60% versions of their products.

My experience with ellipse’s keyboards has been great - I can’t tell the difference between my F107 and his F77, but he makes premium models at high prices. It would be interesting to see how cheap you could make a Model F. Perhaps it would alter the experience too much with a plastic case and parts?

The AT is pretty cool, even with its “unashamedly plastic” case. And obviously we love the FSSK around here. A true remake, made in America and running QMK, would be fantastic!

I wonder if Unicomp has the potential (and the hardware) to be the community’s own hobbyist project manufacturer that I imagine?

Muirium wrote: 13 Oct 2023, 10:23

Samir wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 22:55 You do realize that edge card connectors will corrode over time too, right?

Welcome to entropy.

I'd much rather have that connector than a cheap and nasty "ribbon cable" that looks and feels like cellophane. But you're quite right that at the end of the universe, all such matters are immaterial, as was the dying memory of man's existence.

Samir wrote: 12 Oct 2023, 22:57 This is the part that doesn't amaze me as the USA has the ability to make things at the same quality as China and even at the same prices (not the cheap garbage, but top end stuff). It's one of the reasons big companies are looking at onshoring again because it solves a bunch of problems that they face when dealing with offshoring, much of which was highlighted by the pandemic.

Exactly! Chinese manufacturing's advantage is a deep reservoir of cheap labour. With appropriate scale and determination, they can (be forced quite against their will to) make top quality stuff with world class tolerances. (Talking phones here, not keyboards, obvs!) But there's nothing magical to the process, just sheer capital, supply chain and economies of scale.

Small batch bespoke stuff like our nerdy keyboards is perfectly well attuned to Western manufacture. Hell, even single individuals can do it, for a semi-astronomical price.

Ellipse chose an interesting route with his Model F remakes: small batch manufacture in China with one-man American based QA. (If even that…) It kinda works for him, but isn't giving his customers a good experience. I honestly think on-shoring is the way to make a better, more consistent product than he can, with a lot less drama for everyone involved. But aye, it helps when you already have the facilities, like Unicomp.

Here's a thought: can anyone imagine Unicomp turning into a base for small-batch high end enthusiast manufacture, like Model Fs?

Ah yes, good old entropy--I forgot about that term.

I have so many stories from our friend who works at a tech company I'm not going to name publicly and it's an unreal amount of bait and switch and outright fraud that is dealt with 'over there'. Stuff that would land a company in super scalding steaming hot water if they even thought of those ideas here in the US. This I think is one of the biggest draws because jumping on a plane at the end of a work day to fly over there and hit 4 cities in 4 days to 'get them back in line' isn't exactly cheap.

Unicomp isn't the only USA manufacturer as there's WASD in Fremont, CA. And they can do things that an overseas supplier would have logistics issues with like fully custom keyboards in short runs:
https://www.wasdkeyboards.com/corporate-sales

Imo, he just took the route that would net him the most money--which I totally get is the point of a business, but then you can't have the issues that a hobbyist has with production and expect customers to be thrilled. Of course now that the market is proven, someone else can start up a 'Made in USA' version can't they?

I actually thought about why Unicomp didn't go the route to re-make the F--I think it didn't work for their current client base and is a huge financial gamble to try to pull off. No doubt at least $100k went into the new Fs, but with sales at 1M+, even with just a 10% net of gross, the ROI is pretty much immediate. This is all hindsight though as no one could predict the sales. The fact that Unicomp is still around and selling boards as cheap as they do means they've got that niche business down to a science. And I can see how something outside of that realm would look like flying into outer space.

fohat wrote: 13 Oct 2023, 15:46

Muirium wrote: 13 Oct 2023, 10:23
it helps when you already have the facilities, like Unicomp.

This is the crucial element. These days almost everything is done with borrowed money and debts to be serviced, but Unicomp has a factory and equipment built by IBM decades ago - and even Unicomp has had the site for 25 years, so the real money was spent on the real gear a very long time ago.

True, but there are real expenses that still come with equipment and building upkeep, property tax increases, etc, so it's not necessarily a home run. It's like the AC systems from the 1980s that are still running, but maintaining them is ridiculously expensive compared to buying a new one that will die in 3 years, lol.

This is one thing that pisses me off about the throwaway nature of life today. Even something as expensive as a building is becoming throwaway, even when the costs keep rising and tech advances make things cheaper/more efficient.

thefarside wrote: 13 Oct 2023, 18:12 I’d love to see Unicomp expand their product line. Their focus has always been value and I’m not sure how the Model F would fit into that, but a Model F version of their products with a small price hike would be awesome. I bet there would also be demand for HHKB and 60% versions of their products.

My experience with ellipse’s keyboards has been great - I can’t tell the difference between my F107 and his F77, but he makes premium models at high prices. It would be interesting to see how cheap you could make a Model F. Perhaps it would alter the experience too much with a plastic case and parts?

I think it would be interesting for Unicomp to do so, and after seeing the F developments, maybe that has got them thinking. Because like you said, if they made a plastic 'edition' where the guts came from F and the case and labor from them or something like that and it sold for sub $200, that would be a very hot seller indeed. The other thing that Unicomp could do is simply go after the market whole hearted since they are one of the best companies in the position to do it from a knowledge standpoint. Made in USA and cheaper? Yes please!

There's always the classic triple constraint--cheap, good, fast. The Unicomps hit the mark with cheap and fast, but maybe not the best. The F products are missing on being cheap or fast being just a premium product, and without hitting at least one of those marks (being cheaper or faster), it leaves a nice wide gap for a competitor if one could pull off the same product that's cheaper or available faster.

Makes me wonder what's going to happen to the tooling that was used in all the first runs--I'm sure someone will buy it all and start making knockoffs to sell on aliexpress unless it is all destroyed--which then is a tragedy for the hobby because there goes a way to keep those keyboards alive. Imagine if Unicomp didn't have the original tooling and it was destroyed...

Muirium wrote: 13 Oct 2023, 19:45 The AT is pretty cool, even with its “unashamedly plastic” case. And obviously we love the FSSK around here. A true remake, made in America and running QMK, would be fantastic!

I wonder if Unicomp has the potential (and the hardware) to be the community’s own hobbyist project manufacturer that I imagine?

Yep, it sure is. Yes it would!

I don't think Unicomp will ever be that since the enthusiast side of their business I imagine is pretty small. They're still making keyboards for GE Medical, et al who are probably buying many more than we are.

I would love to see another Model M that has a USB hub in it. so I can plug in things like my trackball and my Yubikey. A New Model M with detachable cable would be nice also. If those had detachable cables, you could make a custom snap-on USB hub of some kind that would sit flush with the case in the back and add USB ports.

I don't think Unicomp has any equipment to make a Model F. There would be some serious ramp-up costs.

I would also love to see a numpad for the Mini-M. That way left-handed people could buy a Mini-M, and put the numpad on the left, or you can set up a Mini-M with a mouse/trackpad/trackball next to it with the numpad to the right of that.

apastuszak wrote: 14 Oct 2023, 20:26 I don't think Unicomp has any equipment to make a Model F. There would be some serious ramp-up costs.

Correct of course. No one's saying that they do. My little illustrative fancy was that they would become the small-batch workshop of our enthusiast dreams. They’ve got some decent equipment, and vitally the industrial real estate to do it in. But a dream is just a dream unless enacted…

I would also love to see a numpad for the Mini-M. That way left-handed people could buy a Mini-M, and put the numpad on the left, or you can set up a Mini-M with a mouse/trackpad/trackball next to it with the numpad to the right of that.

Exactly. There needs to be more numpad mechs. With open firmware and a little imagination, they could easily be macropads as well.

apastuszak wrote: 14 Oct 2023, 20:26 I would love to see another Model M that has a USB hub in it. so I can plug in things like my trackball and my Yubikey. A New Model M with detachable cable would be nice also. If those had detachable cables, you could make a custom snap-on USB hub of some kind that would sit flush with the case in the back and add USB ports.

I don't think Unicomp has any equipment to make a Model F. There would be some serious ramp-up costs.

I would also love to see a numpad for the Mini-M. That way left-handed people could buy a Mini-M, and put the numpad on the left, or you can set up a Mini-M with a mouse/trackpad/trackball next to it with the numpad to the right of that.

I don't get throwing usb hubs in stuff--there's one on my HP and Dell monitors, my Das keyboard has one--I don't need usb that much since I set up my work environment once and then just use it.

But having the old SDL cable would be nice again. That was useful for certain things. Or else just put a usb port as that would work too, and then your hub idea would be pretty easy to implement.

Yep, it would be a big investment for them, and is probably why they didn't initially do it. But I'm sure they're watching sales because if they do hit a certain point, they can compete for sure.

I'm actually shocked that there isn't a numpad now that you point it out. Not only that, they should make a lefty numpad and a righty one. I've never understood why lefties have to use their thumb to press enter when the entire numpad design is right-hand based--it should be mirrored for proper left hand use. I think I've only seen one 'lefty keyboard' that ever did this as most just move the righty numpad over to the left--ugh.