Brexit: The DT Poll

[Muirium]

For what it's worth, the handful of Leave voters I know are absolutely delighted with the result. The Remainers are the ones who are really troubled by this. We all (think we) know what's coming. Funny how quickly the facts became apparent…

In Scotland we have the added nationalist vs. unionist dynamic. My fellow pro-independence Remain voters are pretty mixed. Independence is back on the table, hooray! And if we fail this time, we're torn out of Europe and sealed in the same coffin as a bitter, undead old corpse! Ooookay… The unionist Remainers, meanwhile, are barely even talking, they're so appalled by what Britain, their Britain, just did to them. Forced to choose between Devils again.

[seebart]

Ireland has got that "dangerous" border now, I wonder if they can handle it or need to call in the trumpet...

http://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-border- ... 9-Jun2016/

[Halvar]

And the lovely European partners got together undemocratically to talk about how to hurt the UK best, instead of wondering why they're leaving.

You made that up.

[seebart]

Actually I don't think there's a way to hurt the UK "best", since their doing it without external help. The shit hit the fan and now everyone is whining & wondering what's next. I love how the old men in Brussels are agro now. Those overpaid fu***rs.

[webwit]

And the lovely European partners got together undemocratically to talk about how to hurt the UK best, instead of wondering why they're leaving.

You made that up.

No, Wolfgang Schäuble did.

[fohat]

I'm sure there's a lesson somewhere.

Yes: Politicians Lie

Surprise !!!

[Muirium]

And cheat:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/el ... dum-result

[Wodan]

aaaaw do they? The real problem is that lies and false promises in politics aren't punished but usually long forgotten by the time the next elections are up.

A lot of people want to be lied to. They want an easy solution, something you can print on a sign, ideally helping them blame someone else for their problems.

If we held politicians reponsible for their claims, they wouldn't lie. We don't! So they either play the lying game or loose.

[seebart]

Right, the same old game: "tell the voters what they want to hear". Once elected it's somehow forgotten.

I really wonder if this "Regrexit" petition is going anywhere?

http://hotair.com/archives/2016/06/25/r ... -counting/

http://www.ibtimes.com/regrexit-britons ... um-2386701

[7bit]

And the lovely European partners got together undemocratically to talk about how to hurt the UK best, instead of wondering why they're leaving.

You made that up.

No, Wolfgang Schäuble did.

Schäuble ...

[insert bad, politically totally incorrect joke about bicycle lock here]


Ideally, they give the UK people the option to come back after 10 years, when enough of those anti-EU elders have died and new EU-friendly young people are allowed to vote!


I don't think it is a good idea to tell UK out is out forever!


This would be totally stupid.

[webwit]

But those youngsters will grow up and become old and cynical themselves. Remember those evil old timers used to be all about liberal sex and LSD.

[7bit]

No, the "liberal sex" people all died in the 1980s because of AIDS and the LSD people where already dead in the 1970s because of drugs.

[seebart]

No, the "liberal sex" people all died in the 1980s because of AIDS and the LSD people where already dead in the 1970s because of drugs.

Ahhh now it all makes sense...

[webwit]

Four words. Keith Richards is alive.

[seebart]

Four words. Keith Richards is alive.

True, BTW forget Schäuble, Chief lotte Merkel just said:

Brexit: Merkel says 'no need to be nasty' in leaving talks

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36630326

That's too bad because I was really hoping for a "nasty" Brussels / London spite.

[webwit]

Hmmm. They are both from the same party and one appointed the other. Yet they both have different messages. This means one of them must by lying. How can that be??

[fohat]

Four words. Keith Richards is alive.

My wife works for the Arthritis Foundation. They received this photo recently:

[seebart]

Hmmm. They are both from the same party and one appointed the other. Yet they both have different messages. This means one of them must by lying. How can that be??

The truth is that Merkel does not have her own ministers "under control" in recent times. Her end might be nearing...

[webwit]

I'm a bit more cynical and I think she's just smarter than those amateur 2nd rate politicians of only 6 countries (what a stupid message) who came together with Juncker and who felt the UK were touching their balls. They echoed the Schäuble strategy. My guess is Merkel supports this strategy, but speaks peace. If you want to make an example of the UK, any damage must be the fault of the UK, not of the evil EU. So you speak peace but do otherwise. But maybe she's just more moderate. There will be a growing pressure from businesses to make it a soft exit. For example, if you are a big import/export company in the Netherlands with lots of business with the UK, you want as much of the technical trade agreements to stay in place and take things easy, while Juncker and his pawns want to stop any country from getting the same idea. Those economic pressures will pressure the power politicians who are ultimately in their control. That lobby will pick up speed. Maybe Merkel's statement is the first echo of that.

[jacobolus]

I'm a bit more cynical

Webwit, you’re not a “bit” more cynical. You’re 100% cynical. Every comment related to politics you’ve made on this forum is a mix of extreme nihilistic pessimism and paranoia. To the point that it’s entirely unclear what your actual beliefs and preferences are, or what place you think exists for social institutions.

[jacobolus]

Over here in Sweden, political analysts are saying that the EU is at risk at getting more federalistic. Sweden needs the UK on its side against the more federalist forces in EU politics.

What does “federalistic” mean in this context? Do you mean a stronger central EU government with more democratic accountability / legitimacy and a clearer institutional mandate with a better designed constitution? Or do you mean something else?

Personally I don’t see it happening. Unfortunately the EU is irredeemable as a real government in my opinion, and the Euro will inevitably break apart and devolve monetary policy back to individual nation states which will issue their own currencies. This will be a huge loss for Germany, but a big gain for other states currently shackled to the Euro.

Not sure if other counties will end up leaving the EU though. Probably not, but who knows. I’m guessing it will continue to stumble along as a weak confederacy with a broken governing structure for the next couple decades. I just can’t see EU countries agreeing to delegate significant additional powers to a central EU government.

[fohat]

it’s entirely unclear what your actual beliefs and preferences are, or what place you think exists for social institutions.

I have been wondering about this, myself.

[Wodan]

Those economic pressures will pressure the power politicians who are ultimately in their control. That lobby will pick up speed. Maybe Merkel's statement is the first echo of that.

The economic pressure inside the UK was always against the Brexit and no one cared. Think again ...

I have a different perspective of the political "gang" in Brussels. The EU administration is basically a state above other states, soem kind of meta state. All the political institutions and employees just exist because the EU exists and keeps on running. For the past decades, these EU institutions/politicians have done the best thing they can to have a career: grow the EU, create new institutions, find new candidates, please all the existing members and work on a constitution. This is why no one cared about the Greek situation before they stopped lying themselves. Blowing the whistle on them by EU officials would hurt the EU and thus hurt their job/the hand feeding them.

Situation has fundamentally changed. No one cares about a constitution any more and the last rounds of new members are controversial at best. For an EU official, growing the EU or it's influence inside the exiting members is no longer an option. Instead, they are now facing the risk of the EU falling apart. The best course to save their jobs, influence, career is to make sure that leaving the EU is as painful as possible for a former member to prevent other countries from following.

Look at the EU's top official's first reaction: "Okay please leave fast then"

Remember how during the first Scotland referendum the EU kept emphasising on how Scotland would need to apply for an EU membership on it's own after independence and this could take a while? Now the EU signals that should there be a second referendum, Scotland could quickly join the EU. They gave up on the UK, they've had it with the UK.

I am expecting the EU to play hard ball and make an example. If they let the UK come out of the EU in a stronger position, the EU is really dead. Now is the time to visualize the benefits of a EU membership. If the EU fails, everyone involved on the EU side of negotiations might soon find himself out of a job. It's that serious.

The industry will cry, especially in Germany, but the politicians, especially on the EU level, are fighting for their job.

[webwit]

Webwit, you’re not a “bit” more cynical. You’re 100% cynical. Every comment related to politics you’ve made on this forum is a mix of extreme nihilistic pessimism and paranoia. To the point that it’s entirely unclear what your actual beliefs and preferences are, or what place you think exists for social institutions.

What a nasty, cheap personal attack. It's unclear what your beliefs and reasoning are, because there isn't any. We're talking politics here, I express my views on fucking Merkel, and here you come, attack a forum member without any argumentation. Why don't you attack my views on Merkel or whatever and argue why they are wrong instead of just giving your filth. But no, there always has to be some mouth foaming asshole who can do nothing more than direct personal attacks instead of debate.

The irony: your attack is extreme nihilistic and paranoia.

[Wodan]

Aaw no one picking up on your "attack" on Merkel?

That's probably we're used seeing here with swastikas on her arm on signs people all over Europe are holding while blaming her for their mysery.

The pathetic search for someone else to blame for your own mysery has always been the sign of a weak character and a shallow mind. Take responsibility! That's the downside of free will and a democracy. You are responsible for your own situation. Move to North Korea if you want someone to blame for your situation.

[webwit]

Another one. Just wow. I argued what Merkel's strategy is after Brexit. Which points did you not agree with? Can you give a counter-argument? If all you can do is pull swastikas and North-Korea out of your ass, you lose the argument.

[Wodan]

Oh I have no problems with what you initially said about Merkel. I did write a calm and clean response to your claim the EU is going to give in to pressure from the economy. Just moving on to calling her "fucking Merkel" and revealing that you wanted to start a discussion about her policies did it for me. Someone picks up on your remark about being cynical and you turn yourself into the victim of a personal attack for the mere mentioning of Merkels name. Whatever shit you got in the first place had absolutely no reference to you mentioning her yet you still try to make it look like it's related.

[webwit]

I counted zero counter-arguments. Wake me when you have any and can discuss politics like a grown-up.

[Wodan]

I counted zero counter-arguments. Wake me when you have any and can discuss politics like a grown-up.

I tried, scroll up. But the only response that got your attention was the zero-argument "personal attack" you got for mentioning "fucking Merkel"

And you want to be the grown-up here? Lol.

[scottc]

I would gladly accept Northern Ireland and Scotland as part of a new Celtic Island Alliance. We've got so much to learn from each other: Scotland teaches us better whisky, we teach Scotland to be independent. It's perfect. All we have to do is cut Scotland off of the top of England and shift Northern Ireland a bit to the side.